Without government, who will take care of the misfortunate?

in #anarchy7 years ago (edited)

Hi Steemit and dear followers,

This post stems from my post from yesterday. I recommend reading it for some more context: The most powerful argument for libertarianism and anarchism.

The following line of thought was the result of trying to answer the question: how would caring for the misfortunate work in a fully voluntary society? So here is my attempt to answer this question. Let me know if you have comments or suggestions!


Any system produces 'victims', so to speak. However, libertarianism isn't a system. It's total freedom. In a libertarian society nothing is forced, so in this case I don't think you can speak of "the system producing victims". But of course you're totally right in that there would be poverty, equality, etc., just like it exists now.

The existence of poverty isn't an excuse for the existance of the state. There is no guarantee there will be no poverty when a state exercises its violent control over a certain territory (because that's the essential task of a state). For example, in places where the state isn't as big, it's possible to see much poverty (e.g. in rural parts of Central America), or very little poverty (e.g. Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Hong Kong).

So, my guess is that one thinks of a state that provides social programs to its citizens. For example, here in the Netherlands we have welfare for the poor, the ill and the old. So the question is: is it possible to replace social welfare programs when people can't be forced to fund them?

My answer to this question comes in two parts:

  1. First of all, there is no way to accurately predict what people will do when they aren't forced to do anything, as I point out in my article. Asking whether a society will work without coercion is like asking if plantations will work without slavery. Besides, who will determine what the definition of work is? When are people provided so-called basic necessities? Everybody has a different living standard and different expectations. Here in the Netherlands, people have a relatively high living standard, even when they're on welfare. On the other hand, there are also very poor places in the world where people are much poorer than over here, while also relatively happy (as far as that can be measured). So, over here people might ask for welfare rather than work hard and earn a low wage, while in other countries people could only dream of that job that Dutch people would reject.
  2. But we can always try to predict the future by looking to the past. There are many examples that show people voluntarily care for the poor. Think about the Netherlands before we had a welfare state. The poor were cared for by the church and a lot of different charities. Or take the United States in the previous century. Hospitals were entirely privatized, but nobody was turned down because of a lack of funds. Moreover, in 2016 alone, the American people donated $ 390 billion to charity. Now imagine how much that could be when the state didn't take away half of everybody's income.

So, in conclusion, a libertarian society is perfectly capable of caring for the poor, the old and the disabled. People often think that in a voluntary society, nobody would care about each other anymore. That's nonsense. Objecting to something that the government does, doesn't mean that you automatically reject its being done at all (see the first picture of my article). And just the possibility that there might be 'victims', is not an excuse to force a state to let it happen anyway. As I already said, any system has its victims. So, the chance for poverty doesn't rectify a certainty for creating victims.

Oh, and before I finish, it's also strange to think that people are only able to organize for social programs when they do it in name of the government, as if that's some magical seal that makes it possible to care for one another. I always hear people say that in a free society people don't care about each other. What I always wonder is: if virtually everyone thinks that, why can't they organize something themselves? Often the sad truth is that those people are exactly those people that wouldn't care about the poor if they found themselves in that situation. Isn't it funny that the biggest advocates for socialism always contribute the least to it?


Source: me.me

Thank you for reading! If you enjoyed this post, don't forget to upvote, resteem and follow me @rvanstel for more content like this. Have a nice day!

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Nice post! I do think that families as a positive side effects will become more united and support each other more without the state as the 'big pocket'. You can se this in more 'primitive' and tribal/ anarchistic communities. And poverty is kind of a relative thing. Being 'Rich' is a mindset mostly.

I agree. And it's not only in the case of anarchist-like societies. If we look back at the 19th century, when the state was much smaller, the role of the family was much more important in supporting each other in times of need.

Thanks for reading!

Isn't it funny that the biggest advocates for socialism always contribute the least to it?

Bahahahha!!! So true!

Tax is theft, no matter what. Even if you take my money from me to give it to a charity, it still is a theft. A theft is a theft, irrespective to the destination that will be given to the money that was stolen.

Agreed. What happens with the money afterwards doesn't change the nature of the action. Theft stays theft.

people look after people naturally when they have the time and money to do so.
Government ensures they do not :-)
If we could drag those rats out into the light of day and put them under the microscope like they do us. It would be over in a heartbeat :-)
Cheers

That would be a good start! Thanks for reading!

I was toying with Meme's and photo editing a while back, While day dreaming LOL
Trump goodbye.jpg

Sheer amount of money that gets lost from goverment is crazy. I can understand their being taxes for things such as road repairs, defense etc but the sheer amount of money wasted on dumb things has got to stop.

Yeah, it's crazy. Although one has to realize that taxes weren't made up for basic necessities. Taxation has always been there, and it wasn't until a couple 100 years ago that the state really started to invest more into infrastructure. This also has to do with technological development, of course. But at any rate it would be a start to cut funding of the departments that waste money. Make them fight for it by being as efficient as possible.

Thanks for reading!

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The majority is rather save then free , thinking save is free .
Government forced education told them so .
When disaster strikes and governments fail they go full retard and loot the biggest flat-screen they can find .
The transition from central driven government to a free society
can't be don overnight , it needs to be well seeded first .

met genoegen resteem en volg ik ;-)

Bedankt! Als je je hierin kan vinden, ben je misschien ook wel geïnteresseerd in deze Discord server.

I hear and read from many libertarians, anarchist and like minded that a 100% free society without governments (larger scale and smaller scale) and with a 100% free market is perfectly able to function well. At the same note I hear and read from individuals with the same ideology all the bad things we've seen in history regarding other systems like socialism and then most extreme cases are used where facts are not mentioned.

Of course in Africa people can be happy, and they look happy as well (and I can know this, since I spend quite a bit of time in quite a few African countries, and not for holidays); I had drinks and food with those who lives in the slumps; I have long conversations with the educated, with the wealthy, with the poor, with the jobless. And I can tell you, a life is less valued in many of the Africam societies, and many more problems do exists in society than for instance in the Netherlands. Problems of health, safety, corruption and although some of it has to do with the state, most of them not: Gangs everywhere who have nothing to do with any government, but ruling large part of the local communities; Taking but not Giving. No work, no money, no facilities, no schools, no electricity. BTW, when dad finds his son or daughter becoming to intelligent by going to school, the kid is not allowed to go anymore! (of course, this is an example of several cases and does not apply to all fathers, but just saying!). Why do you think we get so many Africans wanting to come to Europe? They are not all from countries in (civil) war!

About happiness: Well The Netherlands is generally voted for as having one of the most happiest citizens in the world; this year it we are at 6th position; Read about it here.

I think it is time to stop preaching free societies! It is time to start creating them! The best way convincing people is lead by example! Start small! Show the world how it can be done better!

At the same note, I suggest to start talking and informing people about those projects that are already out in the field like the village Ruigoord and ADM in the Netherlands or Christiania in Copenhagen/Denmark. I happen to know a little bit of Ruigoord and ADM. I'm someone who still need to be convinced we can create societies based on 100% freedom, 100% capitalism and without a (local) government, but I do visit those places and engage with people where such model is tried in the field. I still know too little to be able to state something about Ruigoord and ADM, what works and what not. But I can tell you, it is for sure not all hunky-dory. On the other hand, I have my fun and learning times when being at these places, wether it is a nice festival I join in, or the talks I have with various individuals who have their art workshops at Ruigoord, have a decision making position in the community, or living at ADM with their entire family with children born and raised within the community.

I never succeeded in adapting to the Dutch standard of living , i tried , it dos not make me happy .
I do not worship possession or status , money is a necessary evil to me .
I see value in people , it's a hard thing to find amongst the cattle .
I see humans , but , no humanity .
Did governments create this ? well how can we tell when there never has bin a time in history
without a form of government ? ....... Gangs are governments to ;-]

libertarians, anarchist seem to want the impossible to happen .
It's not utopia they seek . I am aware that to get there we have to pass a period of civil unrest
or even war . The farmers will not allow the cattle to leave that easy .
All that tax money they are gonna miss , all the Army's they like to spend our money on .
There not going to give up that easy .
But who will protect me against evil without a gov. army or police-force ? how will i be safe ?
Just protect yourself , pfff.... it;s no utopia , on the other side , if i am near , i help when your
in danger ;-) ,..... isn't that humanity ?

libertarians, anarchist seem to want the impossible to happen

Step by step we can make the world a better place to live in, but through evolution and small project.

But who will protect me against evil without a gov. army or police-force ? how will i be safe ? Just protect yourself , pfff.... it;s no utopia , on the other side , if i am near , i help when your
in danger ;-) ,..... isn't that humanity ?

I understand, but this is so theoretical and not practical. I for sure dont want a society like the USA, from day one, the USA citizens learned to protect themselves, hindered years ago already. Although in other western countries people have guns and other weapons at home (Switzerland, Canada), the crime rate in the USA is absurd high. NL is therefore soooo much safer than the USA and I like that to stay. When protecting yourself, so no police available in the community/society, we will need to have guns and all, since there will be bad actors, that is 100% for sure. Now, when we all will need to protect ourselves and we start to determine with our own subjective way of looking at things, who we shall be protected from and then also take ip our weapons and us it towards those that we think are guilty or harmful for our own property or even existence, how do you think such community will look like after several execution events and incidents> How do you think the loved ones of the guilty will react? Even of the accused is guilty, some of the loved ones of those who got executed will take up there weapons. I forsee a spriral of increase crime when not having something that kinda controls it, whether that be state police, or community police or something that is acting in the name of the community. Also some law system need to be in place, since I really do not believe in judge, and executioner being the same person, and also not the same collective, so this can something with rotating members of the community.

I now my thoughts are very basic , if we follow fear we will keep building borders around places that we think are save . Fake fears , bread and games numb dumb and control us . Government control demolished humanity , it domesticated humans and keeps them from evolving .
The USA are a bad example , before Columbus it was a " peaceful " anarchy of tribes . Washington made it the tax farm it still is . Law creates the criminal , USA prison system is loaded , most for only possessing some forbidden substance . The prison will only teach them more reason to be criminal . It's a f-cked up country .
If all the wealth taken from us by fake fear taxes by fake governments and was spread amongst all the people , we all could have enough , there would be no need to take from others .
If the law is simple , we can all now and enforce ( protect ) it .
Giving authority to a police force creates corruption and criminal behaviour .

I do not see a safer society in the Netherlands , putting jobless , mostly low educated people, on the street to be Handhaving ( Dutch for enforcement ) , to support the official police force , it dos smell like Clockwork Orange to me .
The theory is practically made impossible by government ( govern = control , ment = mind ) .
But no government is gonna make me leave this theory i have .
It's my base to work from , i now it's faults in the light of this time .
But i (we) have to start somewhere .

I truly respect your views. I just try to point out that just having a view that all will be good and wonderful when no centralised institutions are there, is a too idealistic view. I try through discussions with those having very similar views like you, to come to practical implementation (now still on paper, but who knows, maybe in reality at some point in time). In real life I'm seeking also contact with likeminded like you; Try to learn from them, but also try to understand how anarchist communities fail and find solutions to prevent it from failing. We have several anarchist like communities in our country (NL). In any way, members of local smaller communities will have to contribute their efforts and funds to common infrastructure; I certainly believe this cannot be 100% voluntary; Therefor the system 'tax' will exists, even when no centralised country institutions exists, they will exist on a much smaller scale, in the local community. Since when contributions will be 100% voluntary, always the same will contribute and always the same will not, which leads to frictions. That I experienced various times in my life.

It's ok to pay for medical care in advance . It's ok to pay for the roads we drive on , tax on fuel can cover that . Just don't make me pay for the next particle accelerator or war toy . As to me it seems not wise to force tax for law enforcement . The word community contradicts anarchy , humanity comes closer . I do not see anarchy as a group within a group or small community's . It must be global to succeed .
One can not cross that river , as one we al can ;-)

It must be global to succeed

And that is where the ideology starts, since when not starting small, at various places and grown from their taking into account the existing world and try to evolve from within, than the world scale will never happen. That is just pure logic.

Why start something that is already there but only covert by lies ?
Why keep those borders ?
Take away the pyramid structure , don't try to take it into account when you want a better and free world . We must not build on the ruin's of the old system's , history learns us that we will be bound to make the same mistakes .
Ideology ? yes it might be or even is .
You may even call me a dreamer , but i am probably not the only one ;-)
And yes i know , as long as they keep us divided it will never happen . So Man shall endure forever more .

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