On Property

in #anarchism8 years ago

My recent posts on anarchism have received some replies from users voicing their criticisms, particularly in regards to my views on property.  I love experiencing this, because it gets me to think and fine tune my perspective.  I want to start by diving right into some instances that I think will better convey my views on property.

Spoken Words

Let’s imagine that you and I are the only two people living on a deserted island.  I walk up to you for the first time and say “hello”.  You see me, acknowledge me, and say “hello” back.

What we have both done, is utilize air, our vocal cords, and our brains to convey to one another our thoughts.  Yes, we did not invent the words we used, but we did independently construct our dialogue.  You would not doubt who said “hello” and would not confuse my words with someone else’s.  If, for some reason, you asked me “whose words were those?” I would respond and say that they were my words, I assembled them, they came out of my body that I control, they are mine.

This is the first instance of property that I want to point out.  Property doesn’t have to be land or things.  I claimed ownership of my words, and while I can’t hold them in my hands, or take them back out of the air, I was clearly the creator and, ultimately, the owner of the words I spoke, and I assume you would agree.

Written Words

Let’s imagine I write my name on a rock on the island.  You walk up to me and ask, “who wrote this?”  I respond by saying that I did, and that they are my words.  The fact that they are written on a rock instead of verbally conveyed, does not change the fact that I am responsible for their existence and ultimately am the individual to whom they belong.

Food

Now, let’s imagine that I catch a fish.  We are both hungry and you decide that you need food more than I do, so you take my fish, while I am down at the beach cleaning myself off.  I come back to see you lying on the ground with a fish skeleton next to your gut.  You have taken something that I have produced through my efforts, without my consent.  This is stealing.

You didn’t use violence to take my fish, but you now own the fish, since it is in your belly digesting.  The claim of ownership has changed.  While it has changed in an unethical fashion, the fact remains that I owned the fish, you took it, and now you own the fish.

How something changes ownership does not define what ownership is.

Clothes

Next, I decide to make myself a grass moo-moo.  The thing breathes like crazy in this humidity and fits like a charm.  If you walk up to me and take my grass moo-moo right off my back, I hope that we now would all recognize this as theft.  This time, I decide to threaten you with violence if you do not return my moo-moo, since I value it much more than the fish you stole.  This bring up my next point.

Property is Violence?

Violence is not a pre-requisite for claiming ownership of something, but rather it is tool that can be used to protect that which you claim to own.  The violence would be completely optional, as perhaps it could be avoided through some dialogue or negotiation.  Violence does not define property, it merely is a means to either protect or acquire property.

I’d also like to point out that for most of us, violent exchanges involving property are a relatively uncommon occurrence.  Most of us agree that if we go to a coffee truck for some drinks, the coffee in my hand is mine and the one in your hand is yours.  Do some people steal coffee from others?  I suppose so, but does that mean that every time we get a coffee, we tell ourselves that it is only ours so long as we can defend it?  Of course not!  While that is the honest truth of the situation, I believe that the vast majority of people behave on a day to day basis as if no violence is required to maintain their various claims of ownership.

Property is Theft?

I honestly don’t understand this at all.  Theft is the stealing of someone else’s property.  Property can’t be theft itself because that would redefine what theft is.  I believe that this is a very fringe view on property, one which has no logical backing and no real world grounding.  When I go back to the coffee truck and order another coffee I am not stealing from the coffee truck barista.  I am offering them money for something they have and they are agreeing to the terms.  We have voluntarily exchanged ownership of both the coffee and the money.  When the barista acquired the coffee for their truck from their distributor, they did the same exact thing, as did the farmer who sold his coffee to the distributor.  To distort this voluntary exchange of property to the level of calling it theft, simply doesn’t make sense to me.



I would love to hear back from people who found some issues with my posts.  I am a complete amateur writer, so I may often not properly convey my thoughts.  I know on more than one occasion I have failed in getting across what I was trying to say, so I am trying my best to make up for that.

If I am wrong or completely missed the points being made to me, please let me know, because I believe that I am an open minded individual and I love learning new things.  I am not attached to my conclusions, since I arrived at them through reason and evidence.  I am more than happy to arrive at different conclusions with new reason and evidence, even if that means fighting through some cognitive dissonance on my end.

@derekareith

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I would like to TRY to play devil's advocate.

Would property not, inherently, be theft if one was to view X item as everyone's? For instance, if someone believed that the earth belonged to EVERYONE, wouldn't the cherry tree I'm claiming be theft?

One could say that an undisturbed cherry tree belongs to everyone, but you could also say that it belongs to no one. Either way, as soon as I claim it is mine, you now have a choice either to accept my claim or dispute it. You can dispute my claim verbally and perhaps we can negotiate a way to share the tree. We could even bring in an impartial third party to oversee the negotiations. On the other hand, you could initiate force and claim the tree for yourself and "defend" it for the sake of the planet, if you so believe.

The tree could also go unclaimed and simply be used by anyone who wanted. By using the tree, harvesting cherries in this case, you are laying claim to the cherries and not the tree itself. Again, someone could dispute your claim to those cherries, but as the tree was not owned, the cherries are a product of your labor harvesting them. They are yours, in so far as violence isn't used to procure them from your possession.

I point to this a lot, but think of when we go to the beach and people randomly disperse themselves across the sands. People tend to figure out what part of the beach is theirs and what parts aren't. Have you ever had anyone throw a towel on top of yours and sit down practically on top of you? I doubt it. We understand implicitly who owns each space and once we leave, anyone else can take that space as we have relinquished our claim. At no point does anyone claim that thievery was involved and rarely is violence ever resorted to.

Once again, thanks for breaking your information down into good bits of easy to understand examples. It makes sense, haven't read comments just yet but we shall see if somebody decides to counter this info.

Any time! Let me know if you have any questions about my views and especially let me know if you see any holes in my perspective. These posts have given me a renewed passion for these topics and this feedback process has given me loads of inspiration to keep pushing.

Great post, some deep thinking was done prior to writing. I don't have answer for you. Too deep for me, will be thinking about it for a while that's for sure. Interesting work.

Thanks, trendwizard! There's no rush when thinking this stuff over, take your time and please let me know if you find any holes in my thinking. This is what I love about Steemit, that we can have open, honest discussions that don't resort to emotionally-charged exchanges.

My main problem with the whole of this discussion is that I have yet to see a good definition of "property". There are some good examples of when the concept would be useful, but no definition (the closest I saw in the discussion was "things I can control", but many of the examples actually contradict that definition).

Most of the discussion revolves around how to define what belongs to whom, but fails to address why the idea of property is a useful concept.

I agree, Nenad. I should have started with definitions and built on the concepts from there. I'm still learning how to convey these thoughts clearly, and I really got to thank you for bearing with me through these conversations. You're really helping me better articulate my views, and I am glad that even if we disagree, we are clearly on the same team :)

The problem is that the argument is circular.

What we have both done, is utilize air, our vocal cords, and our brains

Already in this sentence, you presupose that your brain is your property. Also, in this example, you used a public good - air in your manufacture of words, yet they are somehow completely yours.

The fish example gets even more problematic. At which point does the fish become yours? You are saying that the fish belongs to you because you caught it, but what gave you the right to catch it? So, simply by removing it from its natural habitat, you somehow transform it into your property?

The idea of property is an abstraction. A very useful one, but it has inherent limitations. Property is not theft, but theft becomes impossible without the concept of property. After all, property is immeasurable. If I am wondering on he island, and I find a rock with a word carved on it, there is no way of telling whether it is "property" or not. It is a concept that only exists as a social construct.

Going back to the fish example, while the fish is swimming in the water, it does not belong to anyone. So, you claim it for your own, and catch it. You are saying that the effort involved in catching it has somehow made it your property, without you asking anybody else. But what if I wanted to let the fish swim?

Some good food for thought, Nenad. As before, I will do my best to think your points through and will respond in time. I want to make sure I don't react and respond out of emotion, so I will take my time to communicate back as best I can. Thanks for reading and commenting!

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Mmm, at first your argument hinted that we would have to consider earth and mother nature an individual as well. Although you do end with a valid point. The fact is the fish is swimming you worked hard to catch it..you deserve to eat that fish. According to you.. we have to consider everything property.. he didn't say that. I like how he started off by describing how 2 strangers meet.. it shows where and how his examples including how the strangers relationship evolves. Because he forgot to mention whether they ever negotiated use of the of the large body of water.. i think it's safe to assume they already negotiated the terms of fishing.

If I go out fishing on my boat and @jbouchard12 rolls up next to me on the SS Minnow, do I get mad when he catches a fish? No I'd high five the dude and ask him what bait he's using. If I'm really hungry I could ask him for a filet, and maybe he'd give it to me. He may ask for something else he values more in return. He may even wish me luck and go about his day. My only recourse after failed negotiations would be violence...if I'm a violent thief. That's his fish, we didn't have to negotiate anything.

Now, if he caught the fish in my fish farm pond in my backyard, well then he would be stealing fish that I own. I have a clear claim on the fish, since they are on my property, and I paid money to build the farm and stock it. He may disagree, but he would have to argue with my .45 if he refuses to leave my property. Again, I doubt it would ever come to that since the vast majority of people are relatively sane, but of course violence is the ultimate tool to defend yourself and your claims to your property.

another good example... great stuff, thumbs up. I agree and would also be giving high fives and trying negotiate for some fish to eat plus advice to improve my fishing skills.

I would probably try to negotiate myself into helping/working on that SS Minnow so I can simplify the task of actually catching fish.

Not to mention I love seafood and because of this... would be busting/kissing ass just to get a decent cut of any and all seafood that the SS Minnow was bringing in. I'm just saying... I love seafood.

So, your fish farm is on your property? Can you please explain how apart of the ocean acquires this "property" attribute. Is there some sort of chemical change? Or did you simply say one day two-year old style: "Mine!", and decided to kill people who dispute that?

It seems that replies have a limited depth...
Anyway, I was only addressing the second example. And if the fish farm is on "his" backyard, that does not actually change the question, what makes a particular patch of ground somebody's property?

there was 2 examples he made..

  1. The open ocean.. nobody claiming as property
  2. His fish farm pond on HIS backyard property

I'm replying to your post below, as I can't reply to it directly:

That patch of land is the mine, the same way that the fish is mine, or my words are mine. We take the same principles in how we understand those to be my property and apply them to the land that I own as well.

As far as the example above, could a two year old say "mine" and kill people who dispute it? I suppose so, but what kinda world do you think we live in? This stuff is extremely rare, most people don't act that way and understand property implicitly with all of the actions they take on a day to day basis. Violence is very rarely ever needed to defend property or claim property (unless you're a government) ^^

The only way they could really negotiate fishing terms is if they assume that they are the only two people that could possibly want to have a claim on the fish.

How can we account for all the fish in the sea for everyone on the planet? I'm sure plenty of people would like to claim a lot of fish for themselves right now. Unfortunately it requires work to get a fish. This is why we pay money for other people to do that work.

Fisherman can also certainly come to voluntary terms on where to fish, what to fish, and how many they cap themselves at, but these would all be voluntary negotiations as I outlined above. It's in their best interest to see their industry thrive, afterall, so overfishing would lead to additional costs for their businesses. Disputes would be mediated before violence as I don't see cod fishermen turning into pirates against one another. That would burden their businesses with additional, unsustainable costs, that their competitors would exploit by behaving rationally.

If, for some reason, you asked me “whose words were those?”

I suppose I'm not clear on what this question is really asking. It could be another way of asking "Who spoke those words", or "Who's voice was that?". Are you thinking of "To who do these patterns of compressions and dispersions in the air molecules belong?". I'm not sure that ancaps will find an easy consensus on that last question. Really, you're transforming through your actions (very temporarily) an unowned resource. But imo this transformation doesn't meet any workable set of homesteading criteria. So my view is that no one owns this chunk of air - with the temporary pattern of compressions and dispersions that you created in it.

Reading on a bit, I notice that I'd like to get you to define exactly what you mean by 'own' or 'property'. When I say those things I mean specifically that if anyone is trying to use/transform the owned thing without the owners permission, then it ought to be legally allowed for anyone else to use some measure of force/violence (or threat thereof) against the person to stop their unauthorised use.

In the case of the written words example I don't have enough information to be able to tell whether I think the written words (ink arranged in patterns on some surface) are owned by the writer or not. Certainly if he's using someone else's materials he may well not end up being the owner.

You didn’t use violence to take my fish, but you now own the fish, since it is in your belly digesting. The claim of ownership has changed. While it has changed in an unethical fashion, the fact remains that I owned the fish, you took it, and now you own the fish.

I would say that the thief took possession of the fish while it existed. But the rightful owner never changed.

Thanks for the ping. It's interesting to try to express where my disagreement is exactly!

Definitions are extremely important, and I can tell just by how I have clarified myself with all of these comments, that I really should have started with that first. I'm at work again today, but I will certainly work on this some more. Thanks for your input, once again! Really, this process is doing wonders for me, by making me truly understand my positions. I have rarely been challenged in life, as most people don't engage that much on these topics, so I can't overstate how valuable this all has been to me just in the past couple days.

Good piece but I'd argue that property is violence, since it is only yours as long as you can defend it. Most people get along and cooperate, and a cup of coffee is hardly worth the risk for a criminal, but if you were holding a kilo of pure gold instead of coffee someone would conk you over the head rather quickly. The more tempting the property the more force or threat of force required to defend it. Not all property is acquired by violence but nearly all of it is retained by violence.

I think that property is not violence, as violence is the tool with which you protect your property. This tool may never be needed, therefore it is not the defining characteristic of property, from my view.

Agreed. I think ancoms and other leftists try to portray property as violence as if it were an aggression against them when the overwhelming majority of property has been acquired justly. It is still representative of both what you can earn and defend (or police defend on your behalf).

This is so true.

Simply Great Information and Presentation

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