Three points to a healthy Steem

in #steem5 years ago

There are several ongoing discussions about a lot of different things such as the steem proposal system (SPS), curation percentage, discount downvotes, convergent curves, SMTs and communities. As I see it, we need them all.

Some people would like to wait for SMTs and communties to be rolled out before any change to the economics of the platform but I tend to see it a little differently. Kind of like the Steem logo.

  1. Communities are the people
  2. SMTs are the applications and rewards
  3. The economics the distribution

For Steem to function well, there needs to be a healthy push and pull tension between these three points where there is incentive for the people through application rewards, and the rewards are distributed based on healthy behaviors. This is far from easy but the more people on the platform, the harder it is to change various aspects.

Some might want to onboard people and then tinker with the curve but all that means is more people are affected and, more of them feel they are losing something. Some think that there is already healthy Dapps businesses here that should be protected but that doesn't incentivize new businesses heavily enough, nor authors. Changing the economics also doesn't necessarily destroy the business model.

Dapps should be labelled aDapps

To survive, all applications at this stage of the industry are going to have to learn to adapt their model to changing conditions because there is a massive amount of change to come, both with the amount of people coming into the platform and the amount of competition in the space competing for their attention. They better get used to constant tuning because it is the only way they are going to make it into the long-term future.

People power people

This is the same with the people and communities because while it is great to be an early adopter in a new industry with enormous potential to earn and develop, it also comes with the burden of uncertainty and constant change and if one isn't able to handle that, it might not be the space for them yet. People tend to forget where this blockchain and industry is and where it is going to be in the future. If your crypto dreams come true, massive changes in the way things work is guaranteed. Learn all you can as there is a lot of possibility for individuals and communities.

Curve

Personally, I would like to try the convergent curve model because even if it doesn't help that much, I think it would help in some way and it would mix up the current maximization behaviors by incentivizing activity in a slightly different way and should incentivize powering up into one account eventually. While everything is gameable in some way, the incentive to maximize for the betterment of the platform is the goal. This offers some guidance.

Free downvotes

While some people hated flags, the opportunity to downvote is a necessary part of the ecosystem to provide balance. If it had no ties to finances, people likely wouldn't hesitate much but because it does, they think that it is a negative for the platform. It isn't. It is healthy for the most part (other than the stupid flag wars etc) as it allows the ecosystem to regulate and handle bad actors. The problem is that there hasn't been balance, the incentive to vote is higher because of the rewards while there is disincentive to downvote because of the forgoing of rewards.

What people haven't recognized yet is that with more people flagging, it changes the behavior of many of the actors on the platform as there is more chance that over rewarded content gets knocked down, this means all of those people buying from bidbots on crap too. It makes removing their reward easier and because it goes back into the pool for distribution, incentivized. This means that either people clean up their content when bidding or risk taking a loss and after a few losses, they will either stop buying or adapt. This also means that the bot owners might be more sensitive to what they vote on too which means, manual curation at some level or a "use at your own risk" rule which would make them pretty poor business models for customers.

Curation percentage

Then there is the curation percentage that is supposed to encourage more manual curation. Alone this might not do much and it seems like a big cost to contributors however, in combination with free flags that puts more in the pool and less "poor" content getting botted to the sky with no one willing to knock it down, there will likely be more incentive for real discovery and more in the pool for normal authors.

I am pretty sure that in combination, all of these things will create a pretty decent model because good and important posts can still purchase bots to appear on trending with little risk and attract more votes but, people are unlikely to stand for every post boosted like that chbartist dude does. This means some regulation will come in to play through the bots or self-regulation after some flags. This means that frontrunning shit content bcomes less probable and earns less because the shitposters won't be boosting their crap to be frontrun. Less front running means that maximizers will have to adjust their voting behaviors.

Moving forward

All of these things together open up a lot more uncertainty in the system because there are more actions that can lead to different maximization models. Uncertainty is a good thing because it not only makes people think, it is much harder to code for and when there are a free flags on the cards, more risk involved with what people might consider poor behavior.

At this stage of the Steem game is when we should be making sure the economics functions well and scales no matter how many people are on the platform, because once they come in it gets much harder. If we can create a decent tension between the people, the applications and the economy, the entire ecosystem improves and starts to become increasingly circular.

Self-regulation

While some people discount the tinkering with the algorithms as pointless, if we have learned anything from the real world is that it is the economy that people suffer from and when it is poor, act upon. Balance is required no matter how one looks at it and the current model is not going to cut it no matter how many people are in the system and most likely, the more in the worse the communities and the people will suffer as there will be an increasing low end with no way to distribute to them and no incentive to combat the ongoing poor behaviors of a few very large accounts.

When it comes to regulation, Steem needs to be self-regulating and that means everyone in the community has to participate in some way including the dealing with abuse of various kinds with downvotes. Currently, there is a massive historical taboo with downvoting but with free flags, in time they will be common place enough and people will "mostly" be mature enough to use them well enough.

A healthy trifecta

Finding the balance between these three point is paramount to having a successful ecosystem and the responsibility lays upon all of us. This is the thing with a decentralized community with staked governance, it has to continually change and adapt to whatever environmental factors affect it and Steem is with a larger industry ecosystem that is outside of its locus of control. What gives Steem the best opportunity of success is the same for any organism - health.

While you may or may not agree with my position put forward here, this is part of the discussion that is looking for that position of health where we can increasingly provide a place that grows so that we can increasingly include. This can't rely on people "doing the right thing" alone, it is going to take incentivesof many kinds.

Some of those incentives will be through the communities and people who welcome and support, some through the applications that provide compelling experience, and some through the economics that empowers people to participate and offer the world their best.

Be part of the conversation at least.

Taraz
[ a Steem original ]

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Do not underestimate the egoism and stupidity of people.
If people would behave the way you need them to, so that your proposals would work we would not have a problem yet.
So to come to the problem's core and say it out loud: the big whale accounts atm do not curate and support in a way the majority of steemians feels supportive...
so every action that is a working one would be to take voting power away from them and redistribute to small accounts.. for me this is not an option! This would be a kind of revolution and destroy trust in the platform for a long time! (and then the gaming starts again with many small bot controlled accounts..)
.. I very well see the trouble of the current state but I did not see a working solution in any of the proposals..
steem is POS or dPOS.. and if you do not force any change in those staked power more or less nothing will change..
.. the only option that could make a little difference - at least IMHO - is that vote delegation and VOTING bots are killed...
whoever doesn't do manual curation just looses that voting power back to the pool automatically leveraging the other manual curation efforts...
The only thing that might work - again just IMHO - that simulates redistribution could be a kind of higher inflation trajectory and higher overall ultimate steem amount limit... better then just taking away one's possession in a single stepp... but then we would be doing what the fiat national banksters are doing..

So to come to the problem's core and say it out loud: the big whale accounts atm do not curate and support in a way the majority of steemians feels supportive...

Nope. There are 17 of them active. there are 1.3 million accounts.

I think it's good and right that the possibility to flag (now called downvoting) exists in a decentralized social network. How else can spam or even worse, such as child pornography, be fought? I also think it makes sense in principle to be able to reduce the reward for posts that are extremely overrated from one's own point of view.
The crux, however, is that downvotes are often set for the sole reason of pursuing other users, solely because of their dissenting opinions or even completely independent of what they write(!), and denying them permanent visibility and any rewards. This is counterproductive to say the least and makes a devastating impression on newcomers who happen to observe such 'flag wars' or even get into them! We should be aware of this.
If it were up to me, ways and means would have to be found to contain 'flag wars' waged purely for personal motives. For example, a committee of respected users elected by the community and equipped with sufficient delegated STEEM power could be called in such cases and then decide whether the flags were justified or not.
In my opinion the suggestion to provide each user with a certain number of free downvotes so that spam (or overvalued posts) would be flagged more frequently in the future, wouldn't really make a big difference under the current conditions. I assume that only whales flagged more often than before, while smaller accounts would still not dare to do so for fear of retaliation.
(Copied from my own post "My STEEM Vision.")

As you say there are less people around now and if change is going to happen then now is the time. The more people onboard the more complicated and problematic it becomes. Majority of people here now are for the long haul so they won't mind. The ones who will complain are the ones most likely gaming the system in one way or another.

People don't like change so even if they aren't gaming, they fear that a change will cost them what they do have. A loss weighs twice as heavy on the mind as a gain and the future change comes with no guarantees so most choose the "better the devil you know" route.

how will it affect me is all i care about. as a wanna be manaul curator with will i be better off? oh and am i better off now just upvoting comments rather then being a big late voter?

I am pretty sure it would be better for you as a manual curator and for those you support.

Right now, it is likely you are better off voting comments as you would get a 25% return almost guaranteed as there is unlikely to be other voters before you. Of course, it means that you can't benefit from being an early voter which can return a great deal more.

ta

The time has come for future communities to raise their hands and have their say on these matters. I understand that economics of Steem distribution may not be of great interest for people who post niche content, but it is everyone's future we are talking about. Our future.

Posted using Partiko Android

I completely agree. I think that while in the future people might not care as much, right now is the setting of that future so people should participate and learn what they can.

Well we are here at the beginning of the STEEM lifecycle and if something needs to be tweaked I agree that now before too much growth happens would be better and less disruptive than later in the lifecycle.

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Fail early and improve early too.

Thanks for a refresh on these items as I have been finding myself falling behind on the pending items at hand. I will have to give them some thought but never close my thoughts to trying new things.

Posted using Partiko iOS

I didn't go into the SPS here because I feel that is different kind of issue but it should get some decent funding from the pool I believe.

when there are a free flags on the cards, more risk involved with what people might consider poor behavior.

Stanford prison experiment, one study of results of free power. Does this apply or translate to a free pool of downvote at no cost and no benefit to yourself, but have a free down vote. There is currently no method to prevent malicious downvoting, other than the so called Flag Wars.

I only see two real reasons to flag a post Plagiarism, and excessive rewards. The first one is 100% the posters issue and as such should fall on their back. The second is the greed factor. The bot sellers do not need to sell votes to every piece of content that wants to buy. The person that posted a nice post that got rewarded by curies or other vote trails have no control over who votes for their content.

All flags must be justified. If it is for plagiarism show the evidence if you are going to flag it. If it is for excessive reward then the top 3 reward issuers, example, @blah's, @blah-blah's, and @blah-blah-blah's should have their reward votes removed their votes grayed out, and their curation reward returned to the pool not their pocket. The only time a content creator's post should take a meaningful hit is when they stole from another persons work.

And when it comes to plagiarism, if a newspaper or media outlet has a click to share link on a story, is that really plagiarism when the outlet is asking you to share their story on your social media site?

I do agree waiting on one thing to happen before making needed change only means that the needed changes are never changed.

The second is the greed factor.

Depends. I have sometimes been rewarded a fair bit but I have never asked anyone to vote for me.

The bot sellers do not need to sell votes to every piece of content that wants to buy.

There is no incentive not to at the moment. once there are some free flags however, that changes.

If it is for excessive reward then the top 3 reward issuers, example, @blah's, @blah-blah's, and @blah-blah-blah's should have their reward votes removed their votes grayed out, and their curation reward returned to the pool not their pocket. The only time a content creator's post should take a meaningful hit is when they stole from another persons work.

This makes no sense because the people that issue the rewards have no control of who votes after them either.

is that really plagiarism when the outlet is asking you to share their story on your social media site?

I say yes as it is taking reward for it in a space that is about content creation. THey can share, decline rewards.

Most people know how much their vote is worth, If an individual wants to reward a chart with a $200.00 vote reward they know they did that. The chart poster may be in cahoots with the reward giver or not, it does not matter, it was the vote giver that provided the excessive reward. The poster did not ask for it.

No there are no incentives for bot sellers to change at all, I do not see the downvote pool changing that either.

And yes the re-poster should decline the rewards in some cases, but that is not going to happen, it has not happened on twitter, on youtube on any other social media site, while the poster may not be receiving rewards the advertisers on those sites do receive rewards,(such as steemits ad revenue), and the site owners receive rewards. In many cases the click to share links come with no exceptions. When you go to Wikipedia, their click to share images come with all the source and copyright info, so it is possible for other sites to do the same if they choose to when allowing/requesting people to share their content.

But the downvote pool system I think is a done thing and steem and the witnesses do not need my approval to make the changes. It is just another HF20 RC's are gonna set the people free campaign.

No there are no incentives for bot sellers to change at all, I do not see the downvote pool changing that either.

There is incentive from the buyer though and many of the bits biggest customers are likely to get flagged.

I agree with pretty much everything you're saying in this post.

I think it will be interesting to have free downvotes to see if the community of active content creators of quality can come together to downvote those people who act in selfish ways, a decent amount of whom are whales. The reason I've only flagged twice in my 20 months on steem is simply because I didn't want to commit suicide. Nearly every instance where I wanted to flag it was someone who could basically destroy all of my effort on steem if they so chose to.

I wonder if large groups of different (levels of sp) steemians would be able to come together in consensus to agree to seriously put a dent in the earnings of high power bad actors, i think it's more likely to be a possibility with free (separate) down votes. Equally, it could just turn into a larger version of flag wars as dodgy whales band together to stomp any group who might try and regulate their behaviour with combined down vote actions.

I think it's going to be complex, but change needs to happen and change is rarely easy.

I have been thinking along the same lines as far as a possible requirement to come together and focus on the worst cases.

No idea how it will pan out, it's up to the people......

No idea how it will pan out, it's up to the people......

Yeah, and the steem community is made up of a bunch of people with a wide range of both affiliations and ethical stances on different issues with steem. I think there's gonna be a lot of push and pull, and political shenanigans, in any such large group of people looking to regulate with downvotes as a collective.

Ha ha, or maybe I'd be surprised, and everyone would just agree... Odds are about a million to one against I'd say 😂

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Can you imagine a competitor coming in and buying 5 million Steem purely to bring out the down-votes :O

Lol, that would be a little like

giphy.gif

Feel the power of my downvotes 🤣

🤔 what ever happened to grumpy cat. I actually don’t remember what happened post the war on bots

he runs a bot.

Funny - but true :D

a decent amount of whom are whales.

out of the 35, there are only 17 active. and the largest of them are generally doing pretty well. There are a few orcas who might not be doing so well though.

Nearly every instance where I wanted to flag it was someone who could basically destroy all of my effort on steem if they so chose to.

Because it is high profile you see it but there is no incentive for anyone else to flag them. i think things would be different with some free flags.

I wonder if large groups of different (levels of sp) steemians would be able to come together in consensus to agree to seriously put a dent in the earnings of high power bad actors,

I tihnk so.

Yeah, I think it would be different with free flags as well. At the very least, it might take time to improve things, but I reckon it would in the long run 🙂

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There would be a balancing period where people adjust but I think it would be okay.

Might as well take advantage of the low period to do a bit of tinkering. Those of us that are here, be it individuals or apps are likely going to have to suffer the this is new we have to change a lot to progress.

I agree that the curve linked is unlikely to make things worse, but I am weary about so many changes at once - it doesn't work in IT projects or science experiments for the most part :) There has been mention of SMT being a curve test-bed, but I've also read that others want the core token sorted out.

Currently, there is a massive historical taboo with down-voting but with free flags, in time they will be common place enough and people will "mostly" be mature enough to use them well enough.

There is a worry that they will become too common, and I wonder what those that are at present being 'clipped' think about 'free flags'.

Anyway, I'll be here to watch and sometimes talk about the fun and games ahead.

There has been mention of SMT being a curve test-bed, but I've also read that others want the core token sorted out.

I have heard the same and it isn't a bad way but, it has to happen fast and then get applied faster because changing the Steem curve/distribution will continually affect more.

There is a worry that they will become too common, and I wonder what those that are at present being 'clipped' think about 'free flags'.

Yeah, those getting flagged now are likely not going to enjoy it but again, how many are they that are really affected? And how many accounts getting flagged shouldn't be getting flagged. Out of such a small number of users, it can't be many. Also, once there are more real users on the platform, it will be an increasingly decreasing issue. Then moving across to SMTs, it changes again as an account with a lot of SP on Steem might have zero influence on an application.

because changing the Steem curve/distribution will continually affect more.

And another argument suggesting changing nothing will continually affect less as people fade away :)

how many are they that are really affected? And how many accounts getting flagged shouldn't be getting flagged.

I could have a look, but I suspect there are not that many that shouldn't be getting flagged. There is a top witness in the line of fire at present, not sure what his thoughts on some freebie flags might be.

And another argument suggesting changing nothing will continually affect less as people fade away :)

lol, yeah.

I could have a look, but I suspect there are not that many that shouldn't be getting flagged. There is a top witness in the line of fire at present, not sure what his thoughts on some freebie flags might be.

Yep but then again, there are other targets that suddenly become very much open :)

hahahahah precisely.

I have to disagree that a low amount of people are getting flagged who don't deserve it.

I've seen a tone of people unfairly censored for getting in the middle of the whale war that's been going on for longer than I've been here. In a lot of cases these people are purely collateral damage. They said things along the lines of 'grow up' to the wrong whale and got auto downvotes for life.

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not that many in the scheme of things and rarely are they truly collateral damage, some might be.

I've seen more than 10 people who were collateral damage in the past 20 months. Believe me, I did my research on them when I saw what had happened to them. I remember one guy accused of plagorism and continuously flagged by steemcleaners and when I went back to check the history of posts and ran my own checks there was no plagiarism. This was over a year ago when I was much more active curating for curie and doing a full check for plagiarism was second nature.

I eventually stopped bothering to check everyone I saw who was complaining of having auto downvotes set on then unfairly, as I was wasting so much of my time.

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10 is not that many is my point, a hundred is not either. often the collateral damage are ones who decide it is their business to get in between but expect no response. if you are dealing with crazy people, expect crazy actions.

I was being conservative with 10 as a figure. I simply can't remember exactly how many I saw that I checked up on in my first 8 months on steem. But, as you say...

if you are dealing with crazy people, expect crazy actions.

😂🤣 Absolutely spot on. The only time I had a post flagged was when I made that post called 'flags of love'. The irony wasn't lost on me. I learned not to expect a rational reaction from a lunatic after that, and I think I got off quite lightly tbh.

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I used to go through the new feed and curate but stopped because it too long sorting through the shit and plag that no one was doing anything about. People forget that there were accounts posting hundreds of posts a day until the last HF and RCs were introduced but then, the people who complained about RCs didn't actually spend time looking deeply at the platform.

I haven't been flagged too much other than during the whale experiment in 2017 and people who I cought plagiarising. There have been some odd ones where I bring up topics or ideas some people don't support but, that is to be expected imo.

The "convergent linear rewards curve" (CLRC) part of the EIP worries me.

The idea of the change (as quoted from the article you link to) is:

"The scenario that it seeks to combat is a single entity spreading their stake over many small accounts in order to hide their actions in noise. A single entity doing this can hide their intentions and siphon off small rewards over time and be difficult to detect."

The CLRC achieves this aim by reducing the rewards for low earning posts / comments. Those rewards will be spread over all posts, increasing medium-higher earning posts by a small margin.

The issue is that the curve cannot differentiate between "a single entity spreading their stake over many small accounts" and actual small accounts. Since 70-75% of accounts earn less than 1 Steem per month, this is a pretty big issue.

I remember when I started. My early posts earned between 2c and 20c. I tried to contribute through good comments with rewards of the same level. I think most accounts start off in this manner.

In a pro / con analysis, the big cons are that:
(a) It reduces earnings for new / small accounts, thus harming mass adoption.
(b) It harms engagement by reducing the incentive to make great comments.

The pro is that it stops abuse from large accounts hiding their activity through dividing into many small accounts. But what is the reward for doing this? The reward under the current linear system is 100% of upvote. The same reward as circular voting, and very similar to delegating to a vote-bot. The economic incentive to do this is low.

I think that:
(a) The cons significant outweigh the pros.
(b) The original issue looking to be solved could be tackled through other avenues, such as using data analysis through MIRA to bring such accounts to light.

Does your opinion change if SMTs become the earning currency on applications rather than Steem directly? Would this incentivize applications to power up and be able to benefit more since there is less top-end abuse?

I like to think of SMTs as linked to dApps but also to Communities, with potentially many Communities having their own SMT reward token. Allowing different reward curves for each SMT would be very useful, allowing each dApp / Community flexibility in what they are trying to incentivise / achieve.

The problem for Steem is that it is trying to be many things at once. We want to find and reward the best content (i.e. content creation, a bit like youtube?) but we also want to incentivise mass adoption with many users and lots of engagement (i.e. social network, a bit like facebook?). The CLRC works towards the former (by aiming to remove some abuse, thus making it more likely rewards head to good content) but at the expense of the latter.

A Community / dApp that was only interested in rewarding the best content, or which wanted some form of one-person-one-vote functionality in addition to a dPoS vote functionality (i.e. a reason to remove sybil issues) would probably find the CLRC very useful.

Allowing different reward curves for each SMT would be very useful, allowing each dApp / Community flexibility in what they are trying to incentivise / achieve.

thus making it more likely rewards head to good content) but at the expense of the latter.

Would this be a bad thing at this stage of the game considering while any want mass adoption now, are we actually ready for it?

The problem for Steem is that it is trying to be many things at once.

Definitely.

I think this would be very useful for continued development of many kinds.

Would this be a bad thing at this stage of the game considering while any want mass adoption now, are we actually ready for it?

I think that if the idea of the EIP is focus on good content but to sacrifice mass adoption efforts / comments and engagement / the idea of Steem as a social network then that should be made very clear in the proposal. That would be a pretty big pivot.

In my view it's a bad move.

I don't think that is the idea, by the way, I think that solutions have been sought to a particular set of problems but without fully considering the other problems that could arise.

Also in general on abuse I think that if you aim to prevent people obtaining 90%-100% of vote value on things like:

  • account-splitting-and-hiding
  • vote bots (i.e. reducing delegation returns by downvotes on those using vote-bots)
  • self-voting

Then accounts will obtain 90%-100% of vote value through:

  • circular voting
  • off-chain organised "black market" operations (i.e. like MB vote-bot which is harder to track)
  • etc

In the end a vote has value and people will find ingenious ways to extract that value to its fullest extent. The harder it is to do just increases the marginal cut to middle-men for its organisation.

Every system is gameable in some way isn't it?

Yes! This is one of the reasons I like flat curation with the curation slider at the discretion of the voter. It removes all the incentives and just lets people vote for the content they like.

That is an experiement I have wanted to have run for 1.5 years too but I think it has less chance of happening.

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