We Told You So
We told you this would happen.
For years, those who you branded as "racist", and therefore not worth listening to, tried to warn you that the end result of letting muslims in would be violence. And you didn't listen.
I know enough to expect this from the left, since the left is whacked out of their minds anyway, but it's not even the left that bugs me out the most. It's the otherwise rational libertarians on the right, who support open border policies.
And it's easy to see why: I used to be one of them.
After all, open borders and letting people in just logically follows the libertarian principle of self ownership; how can people be stopped from entering a country without restricting their self ownership?
Well, maybe it's time I abandoned libertarianism.
Of course, state controlled and sponsored mass immigration is not libertarian to begin with, but still what a lot of libertarians fail to take into account time after time is culture.
Freedom, self ownership and all these great ideas are a predominantly western thing. Not exclusively, but rest assured freedom and self ownership are not values that are thought of highly in islamic countries. They're just not. You can talk individualism all you want, but the fact remains that these cultures are vastly different from that of ours, and culture always controls how one perceives the world. So much more so than people are willing to admit during a time when individualism is all the rage.
I've found it funny for a long time now that islam is such a blind spot to libertarians across the political spectrum.
Okay, so consider this.
Say you build the perfect libertarian utopia.
People engage in free trade, refrain from violence, coercion, theft, and all those nasty things. Everything works just as you'd imagine; the standard of living is high, social mobility is a realistic possibility, people work towards creating value for each other.
Now a gang of socialists want to enter your utopia. Why? Because free trade has created such value that they want to get in on that sweet action. They're not willing to work for it, they have no respect towards the ideas of liberty and free trade, they simply want leech off of others' hard work.
Honestly, do you think letting these people in would be a good idea for that society? What would the net result be, in your estimation? Positive? Negative?
The reason it would be negative is because these people would have no respect towards the society.
See, in the past I've spent a lot of time thinking what it is that makes people respect a society, and its rules. And I've come the conclusion that a big reason is the fact that by working within its rules, people get something out of it. A free market society will and would function as long as people felt that they gained something of value out of it by putting something in. But not everyone is willing, or even capable of of putting anything in. So, since they can't gain anything out of a society by putting anything in, they will not respect it - but these people can take by force.
So, just exchange "socialists" with muslims, and you have our current dilemma.
Libertarians oppose socialists because socialism is a collectivist ideology with no respect towards the ideas of self ownership and liberty.
Well, guess what, so is islam.
Islam is as collectivist as it gets, it's the polar opposite of libertarianism, so it's really strange to see libertarians in such support of this toxic ideology.
In short, the libertarian dilemma is as follows: if you have a free society, and you let in people who don't believe in freedom, you no longer have a free society.
It's that simple.
A libertarian society functions as long as the people in said society believe in it.
I think you are onto a real problem, but I actually disagree with some of your proposed solutions and assertions.
A lot of the people talking about terrorism are not willing to honestly talk about a huge part of the equation which is Islam. It's very important to acknowledge that Islam is full of teachings about violence, about the inferiority of the infidels, about the inferiority of women under men and a lot of other deplorable ideas. Let's not forget that this is a religion which plainly says that the punishment for apostasy should be death. Blaming terrorism on purely social issues and omitting religion is absolutely unfair.
But I disagree with the proposed solution that all Muslims should be banned from entering a country just based on their religion. This is discrimination on the face of it and it should be abundantly clear that there is a large number of Muslims around the world who have integrated into western society relatively successfully and have nothing to do with terrorism.
In the end, Islam is not the only religion full of violence, discrimination and misogyny. Christianity may have become tamer, but we have seen Christian terrorism, too. We've seen Christian communities opposing social progress as well. Swap the Muslims from your suggestion with Christians and you would see why this approach would be viewed as appalling by many. I will happily concede that Christianity is currently responsible for much less violence and terrorism than Islam, but I think we can still draw a parallel and it's still a religion capable of inciting violence. But you cannot punish all members of a religion for the crimes of others. Don't forget that many of the Muslims moving to western countries are doing so to escape the overreaching Muslim states they are living in and they are willing to integrate.
The problem with terrorism is that it's extremely hard to stop. There is always a way to infiltrate a country and when you target soft targets, no country has enough security resources to make terrorist attacks impossible. It's easy to suggest banning all Muslims to protect ourselves from terrorism, but in my opinion, that would by no means be fair and on top of this, would not work that well.
I think the first thing we need to understand, all of us, is that the West is at war with the Islamic fundamentalists. We attack their homes with high end expensive military tactics, they retaliate with cheap guerrilla warfare such as these attacks.
Is really that simple. This is not about immigration, racism or anything else. This is about war. We just have hard time processing all these from our living-room.
And I side with the west.
At least you are honest.
I hope you also acknowledge that all these happen because of oil and because more or less we invaded the area first for a good 20 years now. Most "terrorists" (enemy soldiers really), saw at least one family member die from missiles, drones or other form of western intervention.
They are pissed. Is that simple.
I think you are making some great points here. But I disagree that it's that simple. How do you explain westerners that convert and go to fight for ISIS or commit domestic terror attacks? They didn't have any missiles in their lives, yet they gave their lives up. There is another component that enables this and this component is religion. And Islam has proven particularly potent in helping create terrorists willing to sacrifice their own lives.
This is such a problematic issue because there isn't a simple cause and unfortunately there isn't a simple solution. But understanding the other side certainly helps and the way you explained it has its certain merits and is surely a part of the reasoning for a part of the Islamic terrorists.
Rare cases, statistically acceptable much like rare cases of cancer or special mental issues or societal fringe scenarios. They just get overblown by popular media.
It might be true up to a point but the state worked much the same..or a company like apple really. brain-washing is easy.
Your points certainly have merit, but I still think religion plays a huge role in this. It's what the people that are giving their lives are doing it for by their own admission. We might be theorizing about many reasons they are not mentioning but their conscious motivation is crystal clear and I don't see a valid reason for us to deny that or to hedge that.
But as I said before, I think the reasons are complex and also different for different individuals. Anybody that is claiming that there is only one factor causing this is bound to be off.
Well, where do you think religion stems from? Aren't we all believers more or less in regards to some things? Some people lose everything and just chose to believe one thing
correct
yeap. totally agree. too much entropy.
Religion is intertwined with politics and in the case of Muslim states, directly with government.
I'm ripping on religion and I insist for it to be pointed out as part of the problem because I think it is. We might all be believers on some level but nothing teaches stubbornness in believing totally unsubstantiated claims like religion. Nothing makes it easier to control a person than their total abdication from critical thinking.
In the end, I think we are very much on the same page, aren't we?
I get you, and I did read your post about the topic a while back. But I simply prefer the west. It's not popular, we're all supposed to hate ourselves and our culture, but I personally prefer it, and I'm honest about it.
I also prefer the west but I ain't fighting for their sake...I don't hate my culture. I just think all these are a game of cards and citizens of both sides are the puppets.
Muslims have been in Europe for thousands of years. You realise not all of the billions of Muslims worldwide are terrorists, right?
well said
No, but the mass immigration policies seem to attract those who are.
There are 3 million Muslims in the UK. Mass immigration policies attract the masses.
There's also a difference between someone growing up in the west, and an immigrant. The one who grew up in the west is a westerner.
The 7/7 bombings (killed 56) was committed by four muslims born in Leeds, UK.
One example doesn't refute the entire point. Come on, Ben. You're a smart guy.
This is certainly not an isolated case. But it is also undeniable that mass migration is a convenient route for terrorists. But if it wasn't that, there would still be alternatives.
Instead of focusing on the symptoms of the problem which is the refugee crisis,why don't we focus on the real problem wh8ch would be U.S foreign policy to invade muslim countries for the "Greater Israel Project"which created these refugees in the first place?
the people of Europe still have a choice...to deal decisively with those importing terrorists and rapists, or to continue suffering from terror attacks and sexual assaults
It is a humanitarian obligation to help the destitute and the stranded, we can not envisage the actions of some radically demoralised persons and abandon our moral duty to humanity!
This is an argument I have had for years with myself and others, "When is enough enough!" .. I say this because in hindsight, have things improved in 3rd world countries with minds changing in wealthy ones? Or have we just failed to realize that good people come in all shapes and sizes..?
How can I judge my brother by the speck in his eye when I haven't yet removed the plank from thine own.?
Am not sure whose side you are on but i like the dimension of your statement "Or have we just failed to realize that good people come in all shapes and sizes..?"
I'm on the side of truth and love. What I have realized is that all people fall short but there comes a time when falling short defines the end-user as true or false... I want to make a difference in the world and intend to change it.. Some go out and could give 2 Sh***s less about the person next to them which to me defines evil and darkness
Hmmmm, now i think you are speaking my mind........Are you reading my mind buddie?🤗
What about the victims in Europe? Does anyone care about them?
Yes we cared about them, the world leaders do care too. I saw a video in which her Royal Majesty the Queen of England went to visit the vicitims of the bomb blast at the hospitals, i think she cared a whole lot.
Giving heartwarming speeches after the fact is pointless, if at the same time you still continue on with the policies that create the victims in the first place.
You are partly right, but left to me i think allowing all the millions of innocent muslims to die in their War ridden country is much of crime than the God forsaken sucide bombers who crept into Europe with the Refugees.
That's what love is.. We have to stop it but on a much more in-depth reality knowing that we know nothing. We also have it all and don't realize the magnitude of it's meaning.
It's all for show in my honest opinion...
Interesting perspective. Ultimately in all western countries you reach a dilemma with moral relativism..
The choice of right and wrong lies within the deception of good and evil... Things aren't always as they seem but rather always seemingly deceptive to the inherent truth of light..
Proverbs 4:5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.
If we could just focus on our communities and the well being of those around us, the battle would disappear in the blink of an eye.
Perhaps if we hadn't allowed our "rulers" exploit their countries for the last 30 years they may not hate us and want to destroy our way of life in return? I always love when people look at the current problem and fail to realize we, or in my generations case our parents and grandparents, allowed the situation to occur. We can't expect them to forgive and forget anymore than we are willing to forgive and forget they feel this way. I don't disagree with the post, I just think it's selectively relevant.
What do you call somebody who risks everything and leaves their home country in search of a better life?
A. Terrorist B. Refugee C. The American Dream
Well they are all probably looking for virgins so..
To understand what is happening you have to read the Qur'an. Everyone that is a not believer is consider an infidel and has to be punished in the name of Alah. They are the lil more tolerant Muslims and the extremists that follow the "Holy book" literally, and for them, Allah will reward them for following the scriptures of the book. Most politicians and mainstream media, fail to inform the public about this because it doesn't fit their agenda. It is up to us in my opinion to inform the public of what is to come if we don't stop this.
The simplicity of all "these books" speaks about Jesus more than "God or Allah"... Jesus was the truth, life, and the way thus represents eternity as long as you accept the LOVE
Damn, I should have started reading your posts earlier.
Thank God, Yaweh, Allah, Buddha for the blockchain. Sarcasm