Abortion Is a Natural Right
When people start engaging in discussion about abortion they neglect that they are discussing about how other people should treat their own bodies.
Our bodies are our temples,
Our only true property
Nobody has the right to tell us what to do with it under no circumstances even if the population of the planet was down to a few thousand.
“The Baby is defenseless”
So is the mother who supports it. Whether it is a clump of cells or a developed embryo is irrelevant. The host will have to take care of the potential offspring until it exits the cervix. The baby while being incubated in the guts of the mother functions much like a parasite. In other words it lives inside another organism and benefits by deriving nutrients at the host's expense. The parasite in this case can also kill the host so it can survive. Evolutionary mechanisms do not care about ethics or what some group of humans at a random era on this planet have to say about it. This is how life has evolved on this planet for millions of years. If the mother decides to end the pregnancy to salvage any risk of her dying then she has every right to do so.
Even if hypothetically there was no risk of death, the mother should be able to decide about her own body since she is the providing life—and she will continue to do so after the baby is born. She is solely responsible for it. The potential offspring can have a major negative impact both in her mental and social life. She owes to treat the birth like an investement for her own livelihood. We get to live only once.
“I object ethically because my religion prohibits it”
You said it. Your religion. Your ethics. You are allowed to believe whatever you want but you have no right to say to others what they can or can’t do with their body because you were brought up to believe in some sets of ethics and not others. Nobody gives you the right to decide for the life of others.
Abortion is an issue of entitlement. Some people believe that they can have a say about how other people treat their own bodies. The drama behind it is mostly for religious reasons. Most believers feel the right to “guide” other people’s lives because they feel that we are part of a greater plan. Truth or ethics are not and cannot be democratic if we value individuality. No matter what one believes about the value of life, no one has the right to impose their will on others. Our bodies are our only sacred property—not the will of others.
My body, my choice. = The baby's body, no choice + The father's wallet, no choice + the father's emotions, no choice.
Now, between the baby and the mother, they have to work that out on their own. If a mother's body feels it can't support the fetus, it will abort. If the mother's brain feels it can't support the fetus, then it may abort. It is between the mother and the child, there is no other power on the land that has any say.
Demanding others to pay for this is wrong. Your body, your choice; their pocket book, their choice. If you believe the first argument, you believe the 2nd. Or, your a hypocrite.
Everyone has their opinion. They are entitled to their opinion.
What is really being argued here is to stop the shaming of abortions. And it has gone further into trying to shame people who shame abortions. This ends up in a big fight over emotions. Were no facts are really involved.
That fact is abortion is legal, because having it illegal doesn't stop it, and just endangers women. (Rowe vs Wade)
My opinion: The bond between mother and child is very strong. To break that bond wilfully has a great impact. Learning that a potential partner has had an abortion pretty much eliminates them from selection as partner. They are not mother & wife material.
People who think it's ok to take another human's life should be encouraged to abort their offspring - lest they pass their values on to the next generation.
And by the same logic, that person I'm competing with for the Next Big Promotion represents a serious risk to my health since without that promotion I won't be able to afford better health care. I need to be able to eliminate that person, because their life constitutes a risk, however small, to my own. It's my body they are threatening after all...
the difference stan is that the people whom you work with do not recide inside your body. Your body is your property.
now if you perceive that group of cells as a "baby with a soul" because of your religious belief that is another story. that's the problems with most religious arguments in here.
lack of basic knowledge of biology. It's like trying to explain to tribes in Africa that magic is bullshit
Without the religious component, every human being is just a group of cells without a soul. That being the case, if one of them should inconvenience my body in any way...
Yes Stan. That's all we are. We don't have a soul. Deal with it. You can believe whatever fairy tale your parents have taught you but don't try to justify it in regards to how other people should live.
I mean be a little objective at least. if there is indeed a soul, your merciful all loving God allows 16.000 children to die everyday from hunger...from which you do nothing...
and you care about abortions? please man. give it up. I am not buying this medieval hypocrisy
I haven't argued any such thing. Read more carefully. Your position is that there is no difference between a fetus and an adult. They both consist of a mass of cells with the same DNA. That is also my position.
The existence of a soul in either of them is an orthogonal issue which has nothing to do with whether the state should protect a mass of cells of any size.
If you can kill one for your convenience you should logically be able to kill the other.
So, if I can rationalize that you represent a threat to my body to any degree at all, I can snuff you out like the mere sack of cells you claim to be. My domain does not end at my skin - you are in the environment I need to sustain life. So I'm morally and ethically fully within my rights to eliminate you - even as a precaution against how you might inadvertently inconvenience me in the future.
My position is that you can't have a say over someone else's body unless that body lives inside of you.
In our case the life living inside another one can kill its host at any time. It threatens its existence.
Pretty straight forward mate.
So to summarise
1-Your body, your business, your property.
2- You can kill anything, anytime, if that thing lives inside of you and threatens your own life.
Sorry but you can't twist the religious component any way you like. In your cult you can practise anything you want. let others be.
I'll pray for you..
Talking to your imaginary friend won't change anything. Also this "I will pray for you' is nothing more than passive aggresiveness while at the same time you try to demonstrate moral superiority.
OK, that's for me to live with isn't it ?
You seem to be trying to convince everyone else what you did was right. How long has it been since you had your abortion ?
Do you feel the need for us to feel the same pain you do ?
I love you and I do feel the pain you feel and I honestly will pray for you and all that you can be, there is no discretion that can't be forgiven by Jesus Christ.
I wasn't commenting to judge you, but if you re-read your comments you obviously judged me. I can live with that....
Blessings.
Sure
Assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups. I am a man. I understand that religion can make someone naive assuming all kinds of things but please, keep the IQ of the conversation above room temperacture.
Love is conditional. You don't love me. Your magical book sais that you should love everybody, but really, you are lying.
If you could, you wouldn't be commenting
Again. Magical spells don't work in the land of the crypto
LOL
If you're a man and you think you understand women well enough to discuss this firsthand , then you're mentally ill and there is no reason for further discussion.
It appears you're just flaming. Perhaps what you need is another beer...
well, that escalated quickly. Whether one is a man or a woman is irrelevant. All I am saying is that no one has a say about what another person can do or cannot do with their bodies. is that simple.
Again with your assumptions. No wonder you are still believing in Santa Claus for grown ups...
Murder followed by lusts, if one ever one repents from abortion murder to Jesus and enters Heaven to be with Jesus and sees the own ones they aborted it would be a reunion, only through Jesus though
I would have to summon Satan to make sense of your comment
Despite the amount of hate you are getting on this post. I completely agree.
If I were to get pregnant anytime soon by accident. I would immediately want an abortion.
To be honest, Nothing terrifies me more, Than having some thing growing inside me like that. Hell no! I can't stand the vulnerability. To be forced into it, Sounds terrifying. I would kill myself if I couldn't have the abortion. Therefore ending 2 lives instead of one.
Religion needs to stay out of our laws, Otherwise they should be paying taxes!
It reminds me of gay marriage. Don't want one? Don't get one!
Good job. You really know how to chose a topic for your posts. People just go nuts. Most of them are brainwashed by media and hypocritical politicians. They should look at mother nature and animal kingdom and learn.
Steemit needs more people from the realm of scientific reality. Right now all we get is people who know how to mine, religious conservatists and plenty of gamblers with get quick fast scheme mentality. People of science and freethinkers are rare and I think they are scared away from all the medieval level views of the world.
Just from basic conversations I can tell most people never took biology, history or worse, barely made it through highschool.
Sad really. I never thought the crypto culture was so pathetic. The worthy ones are rare to find
I don't want to insult anybody here. I'm new in crypto and have the feeling that most so called crypto experts still live in parent's basements and they recently switched from gaming to crypto. If they finished high school or not is irrelevant these days if you consider quality of education. For sure there are a lot of bright and talented guys in this community to, but they are in minority.
that. you nailed it.
There is no legal solution to a morale problem...
Legally no one has a right to force a woman to use her special manufacturing facility to produce anything...
Morally it's wrong, it's murder and she'll likely burn in hell for all eternity.
Good luck with everything...
Morality is subjective. What is moral for you might not be for someone else.
What you call murder a mother might call it self defence.
Very true, it is a choice one can only make for themselves. Everything else is in deed subjective observation. But we certainly cannot make laws preventing it was my point, even though I personally think it's wrong :)
The babys bodies is their temple
which belongs to another temple that it can destroy thus it doesn't have any right from there on
Where to start with this, so much I see wrong. You seem to generalize a lot. I have no idea if "The drama behind it is mostly for religious reasons" is true or not, but I do know people can be religious and take an ethical stand simply because they see unnecessary suffering and death as immoral. Those with empathy will, and that's not because Odin told them it's wrong.
I think few would argue that abortion is necessary to save the life of the mother, that is a tough ethical question if you're in that situation. But the answer seems easy. Abortion just because you feel the life inside you is a parasite and you have to take care of the child? Is that unnecessary death? Yeah, that is an easy question, yes, it's unnecessary and unethical/immoral - and no Odin or Zeus involved.
"Nobody gives you the right to decide for the life of others." How does this not apply to the life of an unborn child?
If rellgious people saw death as immortal then they wouldn't join war. Morality is subjective. What you consider moral might be immoral for someone else.
Odin can dictate murder. We see it all the time from religions that oppose abortion but they are ok if the murder occurs in war. An unborn parasite can kill the mother. anytime.
Numbers are irrelevant. You cannot dictate what someone else can do with their life no matter how big your collective is.
According to you. If you ever have a baby do as such. You have no right to dictate to others how they should treat their body.
You call the unborn offspring a child. As you can see there are major issues when it comes to understanding what an embryo is and the dangers a birth can bring. You cannot impose your own perception or ethics to others.
Religion is irrelevant to our discussion, this is about morality/ethics. While subjective, what about you? Does your moral code hold that unnecessary suffering and death is wrong?
An unborn fetus/child can kill the mother at any time? You have the data to support that? I can die at any time depending on the circumstances, but that doesn't mean my life is can end at any given moment. There can be complications, my wife could have died with each pregnancy, but I think you need more than this generalization.
I didn't try to dictate what someone else can do, I was making a moral/ethical point. While I typically will not dictate what someone else does with their body, that would have to involve my body/property, I can make a moral judgment about their actions.
I'm not dictating what others should do, it's just a moral judgment. My moral/ethical code is basically "Do no harm", that unnecessary suffering and death is wrong. If the killing of the fetus is unnecessary, then it's wrong. Your moral code may hold that unnecessary suffering and death is good, I don't know, you have not added your personal morals or ethics to the discussion explicitly. Though I do get that you are ok with a fetus being killed despite any present danger to the mother. Do you believe unnecessary suffering and death is wrong? And please spare me any religious rhetoric if you choose to answer.
Fine, I'll take the offending word out for you, maybe you'll answer. "Nobody gives you the right to decide for the life of others." How/why does this not apply to the life of a fetus?
It tells me that a mother can suffer at any time for any reason during pregnancy
Yeah I have 250.000 years of human births. Biologically a fetus acts like a parasite. it can kill the mother at any trimester. biology 101.
If you admit that there is a chance, even 1% there is nothing more to the argument. In this case over generalisation applies. Even 1% is still danger to the host.
You cannot know the needs of the mother. What is necessary for you might not be for someone else.
Suffering has hand in hand with pregnancy. A pregnant woman will suffer from day one if she doesn't want the baby both psychologically and physically.
The fetus has no rights since it bases its life to the host which it can kill at any time. Even if by some biological magical reason the chance was 0% (which is never) then again the mother could be able to abort at any time if she believed that it endangers her livelihood in any way.
You can't answer a straight question about your moral code? Your so-called "data" about 250k years of births is not data regarding the fetus being able to kill the mother at any time, and you insult me? I'm done, but I did want to comment on your post about the cells under your nail being no different than a fetus, but could not post there because the comment was "too deep" and the site would not allow it.
You really come off as a jerk, my comment had nothing to do with morality. Uneducated? Can you post a comment without an insult? Whatever you think of my education, you still made a false analogy as the clone has exactly the same DNA. You think the cells under your nails are no different than the cells of a fetus and I'm uneducated. Whatever, enjoy your false analogies and generalizations while putting others down.
irrelevant. you can still make a human. that was the point.
yes you are.
people with imaginary friends that tell them how to live their lives and then they try themselves to impose those beliefs to others are the pain in the ass. Don't talk about false analogies when your holy books and god is based on them.
I give specific anwers to your enquiries. You just don't have the educational calliber to get them
I know a couple that were told to murder their unborn child because doctors told them that he/she would be severely handicapped. They told the doctors that they would not kill/murder their unborn child.
They went home, got down on their knees and prayed to God for a miracle whilst telling him that they would accept whatever outcome they were given and unconditionally love the child no matter what.
They prayed for weeks on end and over the next few months more doctors and specialists attempted to convince them that murdering their child was in their best interests. They refused to kill their baby and they kept praying to God throughout the duration of the pregnancy.
16 years later their daughter is studying medicine because she is a genius that graduated high school at 14. She was admitted to college the following year as a 14 year old. She is also a classical pianist and she sings like an angel. She is not handicapped, far from it.
Murder is not a natural right!
You deem her a parasite - some of us view her as a gift from God.
Nice story. Nonetheless, a story. Hearsay and most likely like all miracles...bullshit
You can view it as a you like. Thing is you cannot tell other people what to do based on your beliefs about your imaginary friend.
It is truth - I rarely lie though all humans lie at times and I am not immune but not in this case and I have never lied on steemit.
You have chosen to file it away as a story because it fits your worldview.
You are going to meet my imaginary friend one day and he has a very special reward waiting for you.
Saying "it is truth" does not make it so. You just repeat what your magical book and pastor sais. You are a parrot.
Unlike you, I actually have evidence to believe what I believe.
There 16.000 religions on this planet and approximately 5.000 Gods. How do you know you picked the right religion. What if we both die and see a god that is half elephant half goat and he tell us "You were both wrong fuckers". I could say that there were many religious books and if he was God he surely could show up from tiem to time and take care all the suffering. He wouldn't hide to promote belief.
You see my friend. You cannot know. Nobody does. You are just afraid of death and you need something to cling upon. You have to accept the possibility that you are merely believing in a fairy tale.
I mean come on. Your religious story is about a God who send his son on earth, who is also himself in order to commit suicide on a piece of wood and then become a zombie and vanish in order to save his creations from the shit he put them into from the beginning.
If there is a God he is surely a twisted fucker
You have very little evidence to support what you believe - you have scientific propaganda!
Knowing the parents and seeing them live through the experience makes it truth - it doesn't suit your worldview so you dismiss it like the ignorant fool that you are.
1 Cor 2;14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
It is impossible for you to know what I am saying - you are a lost cause IMHO because you sound like a reprobate (rejected by God). I hope that I am wrong.
Romans 1:21-26 - Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Oh you want to play bible verses?
Exodus 21:7
"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are."
Deuteronomy 28:30-31,35
You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. . . . The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.
Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material. Leviticus 19:19
Leviticus 15: 19-20
When a woman has a discharge, if her discharge in her body is blood, she shall continue in her menstrual impurity for seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening. Everything also on which she lies during her menstrual impurity shall be unclean, and everything on which she sits shall be unclean.
and my favourite
Deuteronomy 25:11-12
When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts, then you shall cut off her hand.
Please entertain me more with your buffet christianity.
@kyriacos
You are my hero! Wonderful arguments my friend!
In modern times, like we are having now, people have educated themselves so well in Biology 101 that there are plenty of options not to get pregnant! If you don't want to become pregnant you can pick many of those option, the pill, a spiral, condoms etc.
Don't get me wrong, I am not against abortion itself but I am against abortion when it's done as anti conception while there are many things to chose from not become pregnant! If by accident you do get pregnant while you take all the steps not to get pregnant I believe abortion should be an option! Same goes for god forbid Rape.
you can't dictate to people how to treat their bodies or how to get sexual pleasure. is that simple
It's just as simple as the fact that you can't tell us what is good or wrong in this whole discussion.
what is good is allowing people to do whatever the fuck they want with their bodies.
And their opinions!
What is good is to be able to control your own body. A human has control over their body and nobody else, nor religions, nor goverments nor any other has the right to judge or force anyon what they should do with their body.
stop being so thick
I do believe that you are the person who is screaming that people should be able to control their own body. As far as I know that also means that every soul on this earth had a right to have their opinion about things. I shared mine and I never once insulted you. So I wonder why did you feel the need to end your reply with an insult? Only shows how mature you really are.
If you really want to scream that people have their own rights allow others to have their opinion without turning things personal.
The life that depends on anothr body which it can kill at any time has no say in the process.
if you honored the "right to have your own opinion" you shouldn't be allowed to say what other people should do with their bodies.
maturity is for the time being measured on the fact that you base your ethos on an imaginary friend that was inventd by goat fuckers. so yeah. no respect for grown ups with imaginary friends that also want to impose them upon others