Zappl.com supports the idea of Getting rid of (SBD)

in zappl •  5 months ago

This is a post for getting rid of SBD as a form of payments. To start SBD started of as a peg asset that went against Steem. For many reasons the asset never seems to keep the Dollar value because market manipulation and pumps that occur after ambitious announcements that should be occurring to the chain.


Statement:

It should hold a dollar value or around there for the peg, but to some its just useless debt. The external markets for Sbd are all basically dead other than the clear manipulation happening on hitbtc. It's also basically just dumped on the internal market and traded to bots. It's main use now is peer to peer transactions. It holds no other uses other than peer to peer and internal exchange now, its not like steem.

Steem has peer to peer transaction, steempower, steempower delegation and so on. We need to start focusing on steem, when smt's come its pretty clear the main trading pair will be steem. Its likely a good idea to start getting people used to that idea. Also while focusing on fiat pairs we need to shorten the process of them getting their earnings.

Currently its
  • SBD -> Steem -> Bitcoin -> Fiat
  • SP -> Steem -> Bitcoin -> Fiat
Our goal now should be to get
  • Steem -> Fiat
  • SP -> Steem -> Fiat

Its as task explaining to people why we need two currencies and many eCommerce sites, Mobile App developers we have talked to who held interest in possibly using steemconnect pay have lost interest.

Businesses are looking for fast quick processes and not wanting to worry that they need to do a whole bunch of extra just to see the main Steem Currency. Most people aren't market makers like our broad user bases.


Pros and Cons of keeping SBD.

PROCON
P2P ExchangesUser still has to transfer to Steem
Pay Steem botsThis can be done with Steem
SBD post paymentsDumped by most users on chain
Buy thingsSeller still has to transfer to Steem

More insight on dumping Sbd, the currency because its liquidity is used to pump and dump pretty easy. Also users who get there payments tend to just dump it on the internal market where a few big holders buy it up. There is no real need to have SBD and A internal market anymore until smt's launch.

This post was made out of community concerns and discussion that was had.

Zappl.com got involved because there's more things we think that should be focused on. Like beneficiaries payouts that are 50/50 and not 100% Steempower payouts. SBD has now just become a extra step that is no longer needed.

Steem Market focus only, i think we all hope for $100 steem. Its time that the main market focus is Steem and not an extra currency adding to the confusion of a new concept of social networking.


Please feel free to speak your mind on how you feel about SBD, the markets and progress of the Blockchain in general.


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I agree! It is time for the SBD to stop holding STEEM back. Drop it like the SandBag Dollar it is.

We've discussed the value of a pegged asset for quite some time. Throwing that opportunity away because the peg is broken seems like the wrong approach to me. Why not just fix the peg (see issues 2140 and 1839)? If the future involves mass-adoption of cryptocurrency (I believe it does) and those new users want a stable peg (I believe they do, Tether had $2B in volume in the last 24 hours), then we'll need months/years of demonstrating a stable peg for them to use. We have an opportunity to do this in ways few other blockchains can. Claiming SBD isn't useful while it's still broken isn't the full story. Many of the things it hasn't worked for yet (buying things, etc) might work if we fix it.

Possibly related: What ever happened to the ZAPPL token on BitShares you created? I purchased that, and it now has no market so it's essentially worthless? Do I get anything for my tokens?

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SBD is purely a dump token and for two years now it has failed. As we stated the peg is basically dead and has been. These boost are providing false expectation to users that Sbd will be so big.

We see people complaining that they're getting less and less as pump and dumps come down this in turn makes users leave because they get way less than they did before. Were pretty sure a majority of users dump sbd not hold them when they get paid.

Its been such an issue steemit them self had to remove the conversion method on their site because it was causing users would lose a lot of value.


Zappl tokens are to be paid back with profit starts, there was a number of perks that came with the amount each user holds. Verification is going to happen soon we got a list of all the wallets that held tokens 1 week after launch. Even if it has a market or not they have a value because they will be bought back at higher rate then they were issued.

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The reason SBD peg is broken is a technical one. We have a technical fix. It's irrational to me to say "Ah, this is broken, we should get rid of it" before we even know what value it could provide when it works as expected. Do you see that perspective? Have you thought about the value a working, stable coin in the STEEM ecosystem could bring?

The conversion was removed because the SBD peg was broken. More people want SBD than the original white paper planned for and the concerns it mentions about a reverse conversion may not apply now that we've reached the STEEM marketcap we have now.

Users leaving because of expectations being out of alignment has been going on since day one of STEEM. When it was more of a lottery people could be educated easily to reset expectations. Now that we have pure linear curves, it's not so clear. Not all of this is SBD's fault. In fact, a stable, working SBD could fix some of it, IMO.


Thanks for the update on Zappl.

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Yeah we can see the argument, but then the issue comes to once sbd is manipulated again and it will be. The conversion will be a problem once again, i fail to see the value honestly. Its dumped a fair bit even by popular big staked people. Which you can find the data on, i do know some big guys funnel it into stake or bots but on a basic user stand point were not sure.

But we will be fair and look over the documentation and discussions you have provided. It's only fair to look at the other sides view point. We just pro push steem forward in any way we can, with the delays we have seen mostly everyone want's some progress to happen.

I disagree that SBD is holding us back, it has shown some problems, but we have to thanks to SBD for giving us our last bull run, it was the biggest responsible. Without the incentive of SBD price above $1 you wouldn't have reached 1 million accounts, not even in the next 5 years. We need it to grow, when we reach the 1B accounts I guess then we will be able to discuss the end of SBD´s.

I understand that it might hurt some projects, but why would we work to protect a project instead of the growth of the community... both important, but a project will never succeed without people to support it!

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I totally agree with @diogosantos. All that demand for SBD and those investors that pumped up the currency literally paid for Steemit users and grew Steemit to what it is today. SBD is a huge pipeline for new money into STEEM. Just saying it doesn't suit my fancy today because people want it too much and it is valued too much just doesn't make sense. One might as well argue with their boss and complain that they are getting paid too much. I'm just visioning a "Saturday Night Live" skit where someone threatens their boss that they are going to quit unless their paycheck is reduced.

Ultimately folks need to relax and look at SBD in the long term when the number of Steemit users reaches hundreds of millions. Right now we are not even getting started yet and already want to kill a powerhouse like SBD from even given a chance to mature into what it is intended to be. Everyone calm down... Put your pitchforks and torches down and think of long term benefits. Hell, even current benefits have been phenomenal.

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Until you pay your workers to much then drop what they are getting by hundreds of percents. That's basically what happened, it got pumped so high that people joined and because they got less they quit. We seen it before some of these people at the start got thousands of dollars and when the money dried up because new curves they quit.

Then when Steem and Sbd went up they came back. Were giving users to high expectation that they will get rich is little amounts of time, And that had lead to poor user retention.

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I hear what you are saying. I just don't see how killing SBD will fix the issue. It would cut the legs out from under STEEM. I would be a huge blow to the STEEM economy.

I'm an engineer and engineers hate fixing anything without properly defining the root cause. It would be like trying to treat Syphilis with a topical cream. It is just not going to work. In defining the root cause, you need to define why the value went sky high and why it plummeted. Simply getting rid of it doesn't address the issue.

By the way @zappl, I don't want to sound like I'm trying to beat you down. I really admire everything you have done, and want to see you succeed. I want to see you legacy succeed. I think it will be huge.

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Exactly @socky, I´m not an engineer, but I´m a believer, and if we are having trouble retaining people it isn´t because of SBD´s price fluctuation, STEEM is as volatile as SBDs.

I definitely understand your thinking @zappl, and I have seen some other projects complaining, but the reality is that everybody that is a part of the community suffers with price changes, and if your workers are not ready to sustain some drops in prices, they definitely misjudged what they were getting involved into.

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Pretty much what I'm thinking.

I have never seen a pegged asset stay pegged. If it can be traded, and it will be, then there doesn't seem to be a way for it to remain pegged. I have always wanted it gone. Keep it simple. Stick with Steem. Steem is a great asset. I would like to see SBD done away with and more privacy for Steem and it's platforms. Not expecting that to happen though.

I would love to see the ability to trade steem directly to fiat if that is our desire. The multiple moves are a pain and results in up to 6 days of waiting. LAAAAAAME.

I agree with you @zappl. I believe the platform has outgrown sbd. Retaining it is just undermining steem as a cryptocurrency not helping it. Focusing on steem would drive the value up not just in price but also positively affect the steem ecosystem.

Focusing on one thing always brings the best results and so will Steem. SBD tended to be dollar's value but it showed volatility. In some ways, high price made content creators rewarded more but anyway, it consumes Steem's value and make newcomers confused. I agree with this post. Transfer like Steem to Fiat will make huge sense of its simplicity that will attract more people and increase the value of Steem.

My purpose is to have as much influence on this platform as I can get and SBD does not help me as much. I will continue trading my SBD for BCH or Steem Power to use toward that goal.

I agree. I develop the SteemPay wallet and I really think that supporting 1 currency or the other would be ideal. I support this idea and would consider dropping my support of SBD from the wallet

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Yeah 3 currencies and dealing with 5 keys is getting pretty hard to explain as more non blockchain users join.

I agreed with you. And this post is featured on Today's daily news (translated to Chinese)


i dont get why they needed both, because it was eventually going to end up with 1

But theres one big question, what do you do with all the SBD thats lying around? I don't think someone who hold millions of dollars in SBD will be very happy, what do you do to compensate them?

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There is a conversion feature for the chain that can turn it all into steem.

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So you mean they have to bear losses?? C'mon guyses this way is the perfect way to get paid. You get sp and sbd both.

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How is that loses it compares it to steem price and gives it to the on a several day average. unless btc tanks massive in the thousands of dollars it shouldn't be much of a loss. The announcement would also bring users back because they would need to do the conversions. Which would increase community activity.

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As you can see in the past days, the price of SBD reaches 42$. So many who have their money on hitBTC exchanges to btc and then they convert it back to SBD. Which means they make thousands of dollars and still holding the same amount of SBD. One more thing in the last december SBD was at 15$ so if they exchange their SBD now for steem and don't wait for dec they'll have to bear losses. Am I Correct??

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They would take the losses regardless, the asset is supposed to be around 1 dollar. What is happening on hitbtc is market manipulation, there is no way sbd should be that high. Its fun to have fun pumps but every pump someone ends up a loser when the price comes down. Its clearly a pump and dump.

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Agreed! Now we've to work on it. But first, there are many exchanging sites where steem is not available if we need to make steem more popular we've to work on it.

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The November/Dec run up on Upbit was also a clear pump and dump.

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The idea of making more prominent is great. But first, we need to make steem available at all exchanges.

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Yeah it needs to be listed on more for sure. But steem is on more than a few exchanges. https://www.worldcoinindex.com/coin/steem

If this leads to an increase in the token. why not?

It's not bad... I love the idea.. Its better been good at one thing than a fluctuation

We were fucked again.

Sounds like a brilliant idea, having read this article is it advisable to turn all my sbd into steem or just hold both?

Post title error on zappl has been fixed now?

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Should be yes, if you mean on the website then that's supposed to be that way. Its auto generating titles.

SBD is a great concept. You can hedge against a potential drop in the STEEM price, without needing to move that value off the platform and onto a risky exchange or a taxed bank account.
It's not working that way right now; but that doesn't mean the concept is redundant. It needs to be fixed, not dropped.

what an amazing place this is! Just amazing.......

thanks for the information above! as for me i support all of it. i prefer my steempower!!!

Like beneficiaries payouts that are 50/50 and not 100% Steempower payouts.

Really? That's more important? Lol Sounds like someone wants their cut asap. ;)

But as far as sbd is concerned, I don't care either way.

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Yep want it asap, applications have to pay bills and there nothing like waiting 13 weeks to pay bills. So for new developers to this chain it would allow them to bootstrap their project and pay their hosting and devs. Not every project in the community starts out with 100million dollars.

The only reason most the apps are doing okay is because they can self upvote their own content using delegated power from steemit inc then it ends up on trending and they get more from the posts. Everything else has to be powered down.

If it could stay at the peg it would be more useful as people could make transactions with some confidence of what value would be exchanged. I don't pretend to understand the financial workings of Steem/SBD/SMT, but having SBD traded on the markets is bound to make it volatile.

Impossible wont ever happen SBD will always be around unless the market cap is destroyed fully which I don't see happening you cant just stop giving it lol

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We can just stop giving it then force conversion to steem, if we decide to drop sbd. There is nothing in the code that prevents this from being put in a hard fork. The chain isn't reliant on sbd.

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Hey I would be all for a more easy to understand system such as Steem only I just honestly dont see it happening any time soon or what really the benefits would be. It seems to be more limiting.

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Well one less currency to confuse new users is a start, they have to deal with 5 keys and 3 currencies on the same chain.

I support this idea. In order to exchange sbd to steem you have to pay fees to blocktrades.

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You could just trade on binance and cut down on the middle men fee

but its not that easy to kill sbd its in free market hands now

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does not mean we need to produce more of them.
2 years have passed, SBD has failed all tests. Time to say goodbye to it.

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well if this happen i would be happy as the algorithm will be quite easy to work upon ; ) hopefully someone from the steemit team will look into this perspective as soon as possible the pump and dump game has badly effect the ecosystem of steemit

I thought it's Steem Blockchain Dollars.

Hi @zappl it's available for colombia i mean south america?. Regards

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everywhere

But will then payouts be in STEEM ?

Doesn't that mean we get less payouts ?

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you won't get less payout, you will just get more STEEM & SteemPower.

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Yes payouts would then be in steem.

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This is the best and effective way of stopping sbd... Make post payouts to be in steem nd steem power ONLY... But I guess it not as easy as we are saying it. Could be part of the reason @ned wants to hire better developers

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It seems to me that the Steem payouts would increase in value.

I feel confused to hear the price sbd, where the price is not fixed, where sometimes the price can be spelled out very good and sometimes its price is uncertain ... my question why sbd prices are not fixed and why should be temporary ????

maybe you have an answer to my question ...

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The price is so uncertain because of the liquidity its easy to manipulate the market.

Great idea @zappl, you offered pretty good insights into steem and SBD. I hope the right people read this and make the necessary changes :)

Hello, I just published an article reflection online with the subject of the crypto-nominated market. Here I leave it in case you want to read.https://steemit.com/crytocurrency/@dyanna/criptomonedas-una-solucion-para-quie

I'm far from being clued in about cryptocurrencies.

Is the Steem <-> Bitcoin rate fixed?
Is the Steem <-> SBD rate fixed?
Is Steem vulnerable to Bitcoin fluctuations?

I agree. What was the original intent for including SBD in the platform?

SBD -> Steem -> Bitcoin -> Fiat

Why don't you sell SBD directly to BTC --> Fiat.

aaaaand what is your solution..?

because talking about it, doesn't change it ;)

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The solution is in the post:
To rid our selfs of the debt tokens
Force a conversion to steem

puede ser una buena opcion

While I'm not per se against this suggestion, I wonder how this would work out practically. Just "dropping" SBD could have unforeseeable effects, and I'd like to understand these first:

  1. What would be the actual reward payouts? Only SP? How much?
  2. How would you convert current users' SBD into Steem / SP?
  3. What would be used as liquid asset between accounts? Currently, SBD is mostly used for that (e.g. to pay bots) because the opportunity cost is smaller than with Steem (which you'd ideally like to have powered up)

In addition, it would be great to understand why you think a "broken peg" is such a problem. To me, it's anyway not a peg, but just a lower bound for the price. That obviously means that the price can go anywhere higher if the market says so.

Last thing is the pump&dump issue. I don't exactly understand why this bothers you so much as HitBTC may not be the most relevant market. Also, with a growing number of users and an increase in Steem price, more and more SBD will be created so that market liquidity of SBD should increase.

I agree to one thing, though. The fact that internally SBD are represented as 1$ can be kind of weird. Still no reason to remove SBD from the system entirely, at least to me.

Happy to hear your feedback on this.

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Q: What would be the actual reward payouts? Only SP? How much?
A: Steem and SP at a 50% split

Q:How would you convert current users' SBD into Steem / SP?
A: There is a conversion feature on chain that converts sbd to steem

Q:What would be used as liquid asset between accounts? Currently, SBD is mostly used for that (e.g. to pay bots) because the opportunity cost is smaller than with Steem (which you'd ideally like to have powered up)

A:Steem would be used as a liquid asset, bots already take steem and so do eCommerce solutions. Steem can do what sbd does and more.

Also the hitbtc had a huge impact on the market because it changed the avg on sbd for people who were using apis to track the price and in turn they got taken for more than a couple of percent. The sbd market is so dead that it was easy to play with on hitbtc where they have low volume.

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Thx, but still this doesn't look like a solution - there is strong incentive for users to stake (power up) Steem to get an ROI which reduces the velocity of Steem. As a means of value transfer it's therefore not the ideal candidate. Why try to ignore that and use Steem for that anyway, if you can just use a second token with a high velocity?

Also the hitbtc had a huge impact on the market because it changed the avg on sbd for people who were using apis to track the price and in turn they got taken for more than a couple of percent. The sbd market is so dead that it was easy to play with on hitbtc where they have low volume.

It still seems that simply the wrong price oracle was being used. If you want a good benchmark, use the price of the most liquid market.

That said, I'm not sure whether there actually are markets which are liquid enough. @blocktrades and the built-in Steemit market seem like good candidates, but to me this is a market discussion, not a protocol one.

get it off exchanges then it's all rosy

I like the SBD. Using it as a for those peer to peer transactions and for bots is what makes it relevant to me. Paying in steem for a service just doesnt sound right to me.

This is my first time hearing anything like this and maybe it will grow on me later but naw. Long live the SBD!

Thank you for posting well, I read and liked your writing

I hope you like it. Thanks