Hive...? Or can we choose a different name?

in #writing3 years ago (edited)

Hello to whoever may see this. I hope you are doing well. Earlier today I posted a couple things and then steemit went down right after, so, I got curious and went to PAL's discord to see if anyone knew what was up and I still don't know why that happened, but, some were saying they thought it was maybe related to blocktrades post earlier and then I discovered the post blocktrades made about not compromising with Justin which I will link below for anyone who may not have seen yet.

I made a post sort of predicting this split recently after I read ats-david's post expressing similar sentiments.
Now it looks official and I believe there will be an announcement tomorrow? Also, I was reading through the comments and it looks like blocktrades has perhaps "leaked" the name of the new chain. Blocktrades said in a comment it's going to be called "Hive" and then I read berniesanders post of support and the tag #hive was used, so... I'm pretty certain that is what is going on and the new chain is going to be called Hive.

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This post of mine may not be very welcomed by some because I have some criticism and I'm not too thrilled about the name. Which I find a bit extra ironic because I once had someone do similar with me and tell me that a name I picked wasn't a good fit. Though, to be fair I did encourage the community to change the name if they wanted to and I wasn't trying to force the name on them and I was trying to be as decentralized as possible.

First I want to express my criticism. And ask, is it too late to change the name?

I feel like we are getting started on the wrong foot when this seems like it's suppose to be largely about the "community", yet, it seems like the community in general was kept in the dark and had no say in what our name is going to be? Outside of the core group it seems who is leading us in this direction anyways because I know no one asked me, I'm not aware of any post about this and many people seem to still not know what the name is going to be and I dunno either, is this final...?

Shouldn't we do a Decentralized Poll and let the community choose it's own name in the spirit of TRUE community?

I like how the community sort of swarmed and stung off people who were trying to exploit us and I see how the name "Hive" works in that context, but, there's a decent amount of negative imagery that can surround a hive as well, especially in regard to a lack of individual freedom as bees are often seen as sort of "slaves"/"clones"/"drones" to the hive and the queen and I can see how critics will be calling us buzzing drones and clones and how bad that might look especially in the context of how many of us are suppose to be Libertarians and Anarchists.

I did Google the science of bees a lil more to familiar myself and some of the experts are saying that the queen doesn't rule the other bees like previously thought and that there's some kind of Democracy, yet, there's still a major perception of that idea among much of the world that bees are just worker bees for the queen and the term "Hivemind" is often associated with such and group thinking in negative ways..

On the Wikipedia of Hivemind it says that term may refer to this...

Groupthink, in which the desire for harmony or conformity in a group results in irrational or dysfunctional decision-making
Sheeple, a derogatory term referring to groups of people who mindlessly follow those in power

It's mentioning irrational behavior and is literally including a "sheeple" reference on the potential meanings of this word... I'm kind of surprised in an unpleasant way that this name was picked to be straight forward and I did not want to spend this much time writing a post today about such.

I'm all for individual freedom and not borg group minds. Why can't we have a name that reflects freedom better?
Oh and... I also really liked one guys suggestion that I read in the comments of the post I linked earlier of the name "Water" and the coins being like "drops of water" as it's sort of related to "steam/steem" and water is like one of the most vital and precious things we need in life.

Photo by Channey on Unsplash

If I remember correctly... I'm pretty sure Dan originally came up with the name steem because he thought it would be a sort of similar kind of thing to the "steam" engine revolution and that the steem currency itself was sort of like "steam power" in how it revolutionized our world. Water goes good with that! But... Hive??? :\

Water and steam are both energy and movement and "power".
I don't wanna be seen as just stinging off attackers or being "busy bees" might as well be the "honey badger", but, something like WATER we can't live without.

I like the name water or something related to water much more than hive... Water is lifegiving, water is critical... And it's also formless in ways like Bruce Lee taught... It can take the shape of many different things. Why give our opponents a form to attack? Why not be formless instead like water? And try to become whatever we want to become instead of being limited to the rigid forms some kind of "network" so to speak, to put it in the nicest way I can think of.

Plus... I Googled a bit and it looks like there is already at least one Hive Blockchain company...

"Aiming to accelerate the development of the Blockchain sector, Genesis Mining partnered with Foire Group to go public and launch HIVE Blockchain in 2017."

Did the individuals who came up with the name "Hive" look to see if the name was already taken? They are a software company it seems and not a coin so it may not be a problem in terms of legality, but, still... It IS crypto blockchain related.

There's also a community on steem as well already called "The Hive". There could be legal issues with trying to take a name someone else already has in the same space IE You could probably name your company McDonald's if it's a company that makes water purifiers or something like that, but, if you try to be McDonald's and be a fast food place then you might have legal problems.

I don't know if this is an issue or not since both are in the same space which is "crypto", a lawyer can speak on that better than me. Either way even if there's not any legal issues in regard to this case, do we still want to pick a name that numerous other entities in crypto already picked? That will be seen as unoriginal and cause confusion to some extent I think? It seems like we should set ourselves apart and be more unique?

But, that's just me and I'm not trying to be unnecessarily difficult, I just think we could pick a better name and it looks like there's numerous other crypto "Hives" out there already.

In the end... I don't expect my voice or this post to change anyone's mind and I doubt more than a couple people will even read this since my page has been so dead lately, whatever happens with the name I think the technology and the community are much more important and I'll be joining you even if the name is "Hive".

I do want to say though... We had a lot of really questionable stuff done by steemit inc and Justin, it'd be nice to start off in as a decentralized and free of a way as possible in my opinion. I believe that if you want to do this right and get started on the "right" foot and gain more support and people who wanna follow, then allow the community to decide the name in a more truly decentralized spirit.

If you want better optics and for this to look like a more genuine anarchic/libertarian/freedom loving community, then letting us choose the name should I think make more people feel like that is the case and that they actually have a say and that their voice matters in this community as opposed to the possibility of the "seats of power" just changing a bit.

Also, think of the potential publicity. We've been in the eyes of the media a bit recently with people watching what's going to happen... We could further show the world the power of decentralization by letting the users come up with the name. It could be kinda historical in ways and really exciting. And if you don't trust the community to come up with the name, then what is all of this anyways? How much freedom is really here? I think we should be able to choose which direction we go as a community and the name is a significant part of that direction, even if it ends up being a weird bad name at least the community picked it and it was our choice, I think that principle is important and valuable.

Honestly it just feels weird that this was all decided sort of in private chats and groups and the community at large was never consulted or asked their opinion on what our new name should be. Doesn't anyone else find that at least a little bit ironic in a place which touts so much freedom and so many Libertarians and Anarchists?
Okay... Umm... I think that's about it for me for now. I need to get on to other things.

In closing... And... I'm being a bit playful/facetious here as I realize you can spin a hive or water in both negative and positive ways. But, with that being said... I like the idea of water more than a hive in this particular case. So...
We gonna be like bees and collect honey for the queen/farmers?

Photo by Alexis Mora Angulo on Unsplash

Or flow like an ocean, free and open to splash and roam and create a "currency" which raises all of our boats in perpetuity? ._.

Photo by Josh Saldana on Unsplash

Instead of stinging like bees, we could slam like a wave! A tsunami even!

Photo by Matt Hardy on Unsplash

Water is also a representation of "love" to some, including myself. I think water/love is some good symbolism.
Also... What about the whale/dolphin/minnow etc? How does that fit into a hive? I'm not sure, but... It does fit well with water!

Photo by Todd Cravens on Unsplash

Or... Could it be something else maybe? Could we possibly get a chance to vote on this? I doubt it, but... Who knows...? I would personally feel better about this if we all had a say in the name.

Photo by Danika Perkinson on Unsplash

Etymology of Hive for the curious.

"hive (n.)
Old English hyf "beehive," from Proto-Germanic *hufiz (source also of Old Norse hufr "hull of a ship"), from PIE *keup- "round container, bowl" (source also of Sanskrit kupah "hollow, pit, cave," Greek kypellon "cup," Latin cupa "tub, cask, vat;" see cup (n.)). Figurative sense of "swarming, busy place" is from 1630s.

hive (v.)

of bees, etc., "to form (themselves) into a hive," c. 1400, from hive (n.). Transitive sense, "to put (bees) in a hive," is from mid-15c. Related: Hived; hiving."

Modern quick Google definition.

noun: hive; plural noun: hives

  1. a beehive.
    the bees in a hive.
    a thing that has the domed shape of a beehive.
  2. a place in which people are busily occupied.
    "the kitchen became a hive of activity"

verb: hive; 3rd person present: hives; past tense: hived; past participle: hived; gerund or present participle: hiving
place (bees) in a hive.
(of bees) enter a hive.

hive something off — (especially in business) separate something from a larger group or organization, especially from public to private ownership.
"the weekly magazine hived off by the BBC"

Photo by Iva Rajović on Unsplas

Photo by Sam Goodgame on Unsplash


I found my way into the Hive discord and asked for more information and they all seem to be pretty supportive of the new name and I was told that the name is essentially baked into the code already. Maybe in the future we could rebrand, however, I think that would hurt the coin and I don't think I'll personally be campaigning for that myself. Maybe, I don't know for sure... Yet, I dunno. This is not a great feeling that it appears this was done in secret without the broader community having any input. I thought we were trying to get away from that kind of stuff...

I just got a comment back from blocktrades and he/she said something to the extent of a group voted for the name and that in the future he/she will explain how it can be a good name. But, that doesn't change or address all the points I've made and it appears as if the new chain will be birthed out of secrecy and a somewhat decently centralized name the broader community had zero input on.

I asked blocktrades some more questions, and if I get any answer I will report on the answers in a future post most likely if I feel they are worth sharing.


It's a name, one that people are familiar with on steem, and yes there is a lot of negativity that can be associated with it, just as the symbol for the Nazi partyy the swastika went from representing peace and love from many nations and disparate cultures separated by seas and oceans, to a symbol of hatred and loathing by a large part of the world.

My view of the name/word Hive: We are protecting our liberty, not a queen or a king, but we the members are fighting for, feeding, building, and protecting that which we cherish most, our freedom. Take the word, sow a new meaning a new side of it, one that fits.

My choice of a name would be laughed at by most: BTFT, Building Tomorrows Future Today. I fully understand why the quietude on the part of blocktrades, and not wanting to hint at what they are planing. I think it is an option, and am mostly there with it, more will be known tomorrow with their official post.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts bashadow. I agree with your sentiments in general and yeah you can find ways to look at a hive positively, though, the potential implications to freedom and the loss of individuality are also concerning. Hive is not what I think of when I think of freedom, I never once have thought that in my life and it is often used in the opposite sense. But... More than my own personal opinion about the name what I feel more strongly about here is that the community should have been allowed to decide instead of it basically happening in backroom deals in private... I thought that's what we were trying to get away from, yet the new chain has it's birth in such? That's concerning. I hope I'm wrong and that everything goes wonderfully, though, this gives me a not so good feeling.

Also, I like your name more than Hive. BTFT sounds a lot more positive and inspirational and uplifting.
I like steem more too, so yeah. I'm definitely a bit disappointed that it seems like our name which is an important signal to bring more people in is what it is and that it was decided without us in secret basically. shrug.

If you want to go with the water theme and keep the minnow, dolphin etc... why not "Ocean"?

The Ocean makes up over 2/3 of the planet and is a vast, rich ecosystem with all walks of life - but I don't know if there's already a blockchain out there, I just thought of this point as I was reading your post.

I'm not overly sold on the name "Hive" myself, does seem a little insular but I get the point that it needs to resemble what this place is about, which is...?

As for the bit about not being consulted... that's kinda the point of your witness vote isn't it? You vote for those who resemble your ideals and they take the difficult decisions to govern the blockchain's direction (once 17 out of 20 agree) on your behalf. If they do something against your ideals then you remove your vote, simple as that? Unless I'm missing something here.

I like the Ocean idea! And I actually almost mentioned that myself in the original post, but, for whatever reason I think just to keep it simple I didn't mention that, but I almost did and I think Ocean would be a lot more appeal in a lot more ways than Hive. Or at least some variation of ocean perhaps a different or unique spelling of it or something.

And yeah, I dunno if there is one out there already or not, but if you put your own spin to it like steem did with "steam", then you should be able to find a way to make it work if you're creative, unfortunately it seems the name is final unless we do a campaign in the future to have it changed and I'm not sure that's a good idea... shrug

And yeah. "insular" is a good word to describe it. Sort of enclosed as opposed to more open.
I thought this place was about decentralization and freedom, but... It seems some of those principles continue to be undermined in the argument of necessity sort of like how the US government passed the Patriot Act after 9/11. They use emergency times to push certain things through using secrecy. It's a bit of a concern, though, not sure there's much I can do other than to mention it when I see it and talk about it with peoples.

As for the bit about not being consulted... that's kinda the point of your witness vote isn't it? You vote for those who resemble your ideals and they take the difficult decisions to govern the blockchain's direction (once 17 out of 20 agree) on your behalf. If they do something against your ideals then you remove your vote, simple as that? Unless I'm missing something here.

If it was the top 20 witnesses I'd have less issue, though, I'm not sure we know who it was since it was secret. How do we even know? We just sorta have to take their word for it?
Also, yes the witnesses and top 20 in particular should do certain things, but, I'm not sure they should choose our new name in secret and I think creating the name would be a great decentralized thing for everyone to take part in for a lot of reasons.

Decentralization should start from the name for sure. It should be choosed by all steem community. I prefer to have a poll. But, powerful guys already choosed the name. What we can do now simple minnows. lol

Well said. I agree with you. I'm not sure there's anything we can do other than just try to talk about it and bring any significant issues to the attention of others and if no one listens then at least you can say you tried and then just move on. Thanks for sharing some of your thoughts clixmoney!

i don't have reason to defend them, but i have a vague idea how coding works, so changing it 2 days before a fork it is not really an option. also i do understand why the did not scream on top of the lungs from they one "we are building a new chain", because justin could push for a power down and it would not be possible to eliminate steemit coins. so it kinda is what it is...

Do you support the Patriot Act? Just curious. Based on your reasoning it sounds like you would. "There's an emergency! Just let them do whatever they gotta do!" And that's fine if you do, however, I was under the impression steem had a Libertarian/Anarchist bent, so it's a bit surprising to see so many so eager to give up so much freedom while also simultaneously touting so much decentralization. -.-

they did nothing to my freedom or ability to chose. they made an option, and no one is forcing me to accept it. they did not say we are moving steem to hive.

for now i only don't have freedom to chose a name. no one asked me do i like steem as a name. can i claim it will all great. no i can't. do i like it more than justins random ideas that he throws at us just because part of the community wants to hear them, with no regards how will they be implemented. yes i do.

I never said they were moving steem to hive.

I think a true decentralized community should have a say in the name.
And there were other changes made too, we don't even know the full story or who voted as it was all done in secret and we may never know and just have to take their word for it.

And no one is forcing you no, but, they themselves mostly say they think steem is going to die as a result of this move, so you either go with them or you're [email protected] according to their own statements.

i do understand what you are saying but if they said 2 weeks ago that they are starting a work on a hard fork that will be a new blockchain with no steemit stake justin would push for fake witnesses did a quick powerdown HF and the new chain would not be possible. and to be honest i would not really be in any help in making the new chain. name, or some other things, well maybe i can live with that.
They said the code for the fork will be public today (if already is not) so if you understand it, you can check it out and if you don't like it you could hope that justin will not f-up steem.

I like Ocean, as suggested by nickyhavey. Could work, but I haven't checked to see if it already exists. Hive seems ok to me, but I also didn't know there was already a hive blockchain.. Damn, maybe the name was chosen in private/haste due to the fact this had to be done without too much noise and well, before JS catches wind? Not sure what Tron could've done about it, even if they did decide to actually read anything posted here that would be deemed relevant. Lol Either way, if there are legal issues that come about with the name then I assume there will be an opportunity for the community to add some input on the matter. I believe @dpoll is in favor of this fork at least, not sure abiut the name. We can get a poll going for some new names or whether or not we should come up with a new one pretty easily.
Edit: just saw nickyhavey posted the same idea for ocean

I like Ocean too! I think that's a good one! Or at least some variation or alternate spelling of it to make it more unique and original. I haven't checked either and at this point I don't plan to because I don't see much interest outside of yourself and a few other people who commented or expressed similar sentiments in Discord.

Maybe in the future we could campaign to get the name changed but I think that might be confusing and hurt the coin, so I'm not sure I would pursue that. I dunno what to say. I'm probably going to write one more post about this and express my frustrations and then move on.

And yes they will likely say that it had to be done without noise before JS catches on, but, they say similar with stuff like the Patriot Act which I oppose. I don't think it's setting a good image to create make quick decisions under emergency powers, better I think to take our time and think about it and consult the broader community.

If there are legal issues, hopefully we can just change and don't get sued outright.
Then hopefully they let us choose as a community next time.

I'd be happy to do the Dpoll thing, but, they've already announced Hive and I was on their discord and they said it's baked into the code and can't be changed for a while. Maybe in the future we can change it. As I mentioned though, I'm not sure if that is a good idea. It might hurt the value and be confusing... So.. I dunno what to say.

well smart people also say that there is a big chance we would have a big problem staying alive and not starve if there were no bees, so maybe we could also educate all stupid people who would comment shitty on the name 😄

Appealing to authority is a logical fallacy, lots of smart people say lots of things, doesn't make such true. The data I've seen actually shows otherwise, here's a snippet.

"Approximately 60 percent of the total volume of food grown worldwide does not require animal pollination. Many staple foods, such as wheat, rice, and corn, are among those 28 crops that require no help from bees. They either self-pollinate or get help from the wind. Those foods make up a tremendous proportion of human calorie intake worldwide."

Also, it looks like bees need water as well, so... Water is more vital once again.

Not sure what you meant by the last part and if you're saying I'm stupid or not, though, I've no interest in getting involved in jackal language like that, peace.

never thought that you would think that was thinking about you. sorry if you feel that it was aimed at you.

i wrote in one of the comments on your post

"i don't have reason to defend them, but i have a vague idea how coding works, so changing it 2 days before a fork it is not really an option. also i do understand why they did not scream on top of the lungs from day one "we are building a new chain", because justin could push for a power down and it would not be possible to eliminate steemit coins. so it kinda is what it is..."

so we could talk bad about the name, or we could try to find a good side of it.

and it is 5AM and i suck at spelling :D

No worries. Thanks for clarifying. I saw the other message and responded to it already. I feel like the actions taken were similar to government using the excuse of national security to do things in secret, I was hoping we could be more decentralized and not have the new chain be birthed out of secrecy and centralization. But, it is what it is. Not much I can do about it.

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