PLANTS if you Please – does it Align, or can your Integrity be Crooked?
Here's something that I've been considering. Please get some salt and a layer or two of thick skin ready (this won't apply to everyone). What follows is my opinion.
Lots of people (I used to be one of them) moan, groan and complain about a world that doesn't give a shit about them and their well-being, right? Think of all the occasions where people, where you, have ranted on about how unfair the system is; how underserving folk get promoted at work; how you feel used and manipulated as if merely an object or a number; how you are victimised and manipulated by the bullshit Matrix Control System, your peers, spouse, boss etc etc. It is perhaps an expression of anger and a sense of helplessness at one's plight - it was for me! Lots of folk feel hard done by and there is eagerness to blame. The system itself cashes in on this by gleefully encouraging a sense of entitlement and compensation for one's miserable state of being. People feel that they are treated badly and wanna FUCKING SHOUT about it! I don't even need to bother switching to a different website, Steemit's got plenty of examples of this kind of expression!
There is of course the other hand, and in it, you have a lot of these very people (perhaps you included – I'm not judging, just sayin' and pointing out) who will regularly and mostly unthinkingly, consume dead farmed animal parts. These animals have lived lives of horror and torture before being executed (any other word that describes this accurately?) and they most certainly also have a claim to being hard done by and unfairly treated. This is undeniable, and the facts don't alter if one chooses to look the other way! The scale is ENORMOUS! Arguments about the innate superiority of humans are fallacious, extremely limited, biased and unbalanced – ever lived and spent quality time with an animal? Check out The Superior Human? on YT. Could there be a notion that animals do not experience physical or emotional pain and thus are immune from suffering? Yeah, nice little bit of self-serving bullshit, You cannat be seriyus mayn!
Arguments regarding habits and practicalities of food production, consumption and one's moral positioning aside, the simple fact of the matter is that there are two conflicting streams of energy going on here – both quite fundamental and powerfully influential in how one lives. On the one hand is a deep dissatisfaction with the unfairness of life and how one is being treated, with demands and the expectations of something being 'due' (in compensation perhaps?). On the other hand, there is complete and utter disregard for and insensitivity towards life – this disregard for life is pretty comprehensive if seriously and sincerely considered: the suffering, the cries, the despair, the agony and heartache and all the rest of the behavioural spectrum in response to unspeakably cruel and depraved living conditions. Then we have those neat little supermarket packages! Who is brave and honest enough to make the connection and to acknowledge their line of responsibility? Unmoved? I challenge you to watch Earthlings (on YT, narrated by Joaquin Phoenix).
This is not an exaggeration. If this bit of writing gets you annoyed at those pesky vegans (I prefer plant-based eater if you please, but it doesn't really matter. I'm really NOT having a go at you and I do hope you may still be reading 💜 . You may have been suck(ere)ed into being an unconscious part of something really DARK. At least be prepared to see wtf is really going on and then decide what your position is...isn't this reasonable if you are someone who actually does give a shit about life and quality of living?) getting all high-horsed and blah-blah-blahey again, well, please also be aware that my words and attitude and opinon have no bearing on the matter whatsoever – the facts are clear and can be investigated for oneself without hand-holding or sentimentality. This is not a fight, or point-scorer; it's not a comparison of moral pedestals, hunger or contributions to science or art. We are all in it together in many ways, and the issue is considerably bigger than an ego or one's fear of confronting painful personal issues and taking responsibility for them (IM probably not so humbly delivered 😉 O). It is about respect for life, and not just the humble little chicken or pig (or the tiny insignificant creepy-crawley that one thinks nothing of squashing), but for your very own living-life too! What of all that intense energy of suffering that flows through the production process and into that bite of a steak or a burger? What's the effect of that? Nothing at all to do with the spouting keyboard of barge or anything he may say, so feel free to curse and stomp and snort all you like, it no maka no deefarenz mi amigo/a, I used to throw tantrums myself, so I do empathise :D
So all I'm really trying to say is where is the integrity in all this? Where is the continuity and consistency of the higher values of respect and acknowledgement for one's existence - the same good stuff one feels entitled to from life, society, family etc; and about which one complains so loudly and passionately when there is a sense of lack, unfairness, deprivation etc? Does this feel and sound like a balanced approach and one of alignment with anything higher? In a search for WHOLEism, compartmentalisation and divison just keep healing away! And where is the Love? Is it reasonable to expect and demand something that one is not prepared to offer in return? Could it even be that this disrespect for life is a projection of a deep sense of unworthiness and disrespect for one's own being, one's own life? Is there Love to be found here? Is there a sense of the presence or lack of Love in your life? Fukyu barge you plantEatingPothead, you know nothing about me... I'm gona climb through this screen and pull them pigtails of yours outa their godamn anarchoLeftyHippy roots and stikkem...... besides, you paltry, measly little rowing-boat, does any of this even matter?......hmmm, well, my dear gifter of scented rose petals, perhaps if you sincerely consider whether you are really and truly happy in your life, you may receive some indication of the answer!
With Peace, and with the greatest Respect for all of life, most certainly YOURS!
Namaste
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I am a consumer of meat. Do I agree with your perspective on farm raising animals? Yes I do. I also partake in eating the meat from the grocery store, and although I don't agree with the process to which the meat is delivered to me, do I feel as though I am a bad person for consuming the meat? No I don't @barge, and let me explain why.
I'm poor and live in a highly populated city. I have no vehicle transportation that will bring me to the country to hunt for meat, I have no plot of land to plant my own food on, and because I was convicted of a violent crime for defending myself against an assailant, I am not allowed to own a firearm. Sure I could hunt with a bow and arrow, but I am not the biggest advocate of this type of hunting because the animal generally suffers for a while before dying.
I feel consumption of meat is ok, because it's a naturally occurring event that takes place within many different animal species. Not just us. We are not that much different from the animals we think we are superior to. That being said, I think a better system would be: If you want meat, you must hunt for it. That gives the animal a fair chance to live, and their not living their lives within the confines of a farm, being raised for a specific purpose. It's sad that society is set up in such a way to make it almost impossible for some individuals to be able to produce their own food. For the one's who can, I would say, be grateful, because when you look at the broad spectrum of things, life is pretty unfair , but sadly, thats just the way it is, and I am not sure how much us, as single entities can really do about it.
My intention and interest is not to point to any superiority of a vegan position, nor to sketch out divisions between humans based on diet. I am not superior, I am not inferior. I am responsible for my choices and I always have a choice!
I think this is something that is tackled in the post. The two streams of energy in one's life. On the one hand, this sense of unfairness, on the other, the willingness to partake in unfairness. Do you see? So what I'm pointing out is that this has consequences and that a holistic view of one's life (with the aim of healing, being liberated from the bulk of the heaviness of life, the pain, trauma and suffering etc) cannot ignore the different streams of violence. Such compartmentalisation is itself a symptom of dysfunction.
Blame is useless, it gets us nowhere in our desire to move forward, we just get stuck. Far better, I think, an honest view at the level of violence already present in one's life, and taking responsibilty for one's part in it - and therefore taking responsibility for oneself. This, IMO, is one of the routes to healing. It is only ever a personal choice. This is what we as single entities can do - the immense power of this has to be experienced to be believed!
Thanks for stopping by and reading @futuremind
You're welcome @barge, and thank you for responding. I really enjoy reading your literature, and you have a very unbiased mindful way of viewing the world. It's a very respectable way of being IMO.
Well put my friend..Well put.
Thank you very much indeed @futuremind, these are very kind words and I am very grateful to you for expressing them.
🔆 🔆 🔆
The only disregard for life is turning your head at how life sustains by the death and on the consumption of other life.
Hi @baah, I accept that life and death are intimately connected to one another. Are you stating that what is being ignored here is that life sustains itself by consuming other life in order for it to have life in the first place - have I understood you correctly?
I can only speak for myself in this regard. I live and my life is sustained, yet I do not engage in the taking of life for this to continue. My parents did not need to consume life in order for me to be born, although I did have to die from my previous life first :). I'm not better or worse than anyone on account of my eating habits (or on any other basis). I see diet as a personal choice. I think that what is eaten can have serious consequences for the individual.
Animals take life to sustain themselves, as do human beings in parts of the world. Sustainability and respect for life play a part in this. This is a very different issue from the reality of the vast majority of the meat/dead flesh consumed in the world today.
Yet you do not take life, because why not disregard plants as lifeless.
That's a fair-looking point. Disrespect for plant life takes place and certainly I consume plants that will not have had the happiest lives, accepted! The life of the plant organism is a lot more resilient in terms of providing sustaining food and not itself dying (plucking fruit doesn't kill the tree) and there is vast regeneration of something that doesn't seem to die (the tulip bulbs outside my front door appear every Spring, but there is no sign above ground until they do). As far as there is the energy of violence present in the plant food that I consume, I have to take responsibility for my choice to continue to eat or not. I certainly hereby do a degree of violence to myself, also accepted!
Yet how much more is the level of violence done to self through the consumption of meat which has gone through a process the brutality and violence which is several orders of magnitude greater than anything that may come through plant eating? This is also a fair-looking point is it not? And if there is an effect of this violence on you, me, the individual; is it not worth considering that this effect may be linked holistically to how one is/feels/lives - the anger, the violence which is a part of one's own living experience? Are these things really even separate? And, given the responsibility factor, is this at all in alignment with one's personal integrity. Or is Integrity some kinda sidekick term that doesn't really mean anything much and doesn't matter in one's life? It's a personal choice. That's kinda the point of the post.
You're arguing the subtleties of your violence. Violence is violence, and nothing quite as violent as the war of moral superiority when it comes to food choices. It's all a dogmatic and unsubstantiated point of view, fair like the darkest abyss. You need to feel good about your choice of violence so you adapt this to living longer, a desire which is usually synonymous with immortality (of the spirit). Either there is Personal Integrity or there is No Separation Integrity. How much plant violence do you think accumulates during your lifetime, since we're discussing the subtleties of your choice in violence as a correlation to happiness (which you think can ever come without suffering by escaping violence, which is essentially the other side of pleasure).
The issue as it pertains to each individual is nowt to do with me - I may be as hypocritical as the worst case scenario, that's my responsibility and I will have to deal with the consequences. Your decision is for you to make! Having said that, Baah, do you think it's just plant violence that I absorbed in my life? I have engaged with anger and rage and it has cost me plenty. However, I - like all human beings - have the capacity to let go of energy that has been accumulated over time and to be relatively free of it's effect and influence...this can be done consciously and in a healing manner over time - it is my experience, it is actually so, for me :D
........also dunno about escaping violence! My position is that I have to understand where it's coming from holistically in order to be free - ie the violence in all aspects of my life is linked. I cannot be free of it through denial or escapism. Were I to curse you for twisting my words (not saying, but it can feel a little like that - I'm being honest, you're a no-bullshitter IMO :), that would be an act of violence as I see it. A position of moral superiority is divisive and it alienates - if you feel that this tone is present in my post, I apologise unconditionally as this is unintended and I do not see its presence myself. You may also be hyper-sensitive yourself, let's be honest! You do express a lot of anger and rage - I have read some of your interactions with interest and fascination! I have noticed your votes on some of my posts, and am rather honoured that you are following me - I have sometimes wondered why! Anyway, I am cautious with you, but utterly straight-up.
And I am not arguing at all. And I am not provoked - seriously my friend, if it's a fight you are looking for, I'm done and you win ok? I responded to your two one-liners with a full and sincere response, thereby providing you with plenty of material that you can cut and slice with that clever mind of yours, and then serve back in sharp cut and thrust style. I appreciate enquiry, but I'm not interested in word or ego games or point scoring. I am not trying to convince anyone, that is not my responsibility. I don't judge even if the reader may feel judged. And to repeat, I do not consider myself superior or inferior, to anyone, to any being - my entitlement to life is the same as an ant, the same as the BIGGEST and FATTEST VIP or even DARK OVERLORD, who has ever walked the Earth...no different!
There's no decision, I am not guilted by the cycle of life. I don't revel in suffering and tournament but I don't delude myself into thinking you could divorce that from happiness and well-being.
Ergo you can murder and do whatever horrible deed you wish because the capacity to forgive yourself in within you and walk off with a clear conscience. You cannot even eat meat without guilt going down your throat so I don't buy it, if you could let go of that energy you wouldn't be here dishing it out, people are generally appreciative of the sacrifices that had been made to keep them alive, others see it as a personal attack but nothing more impersonal could be happening.
You think you can escape violence but you cannot do it through escapism.
Yes, you cannot escape violence, it's not a matter of choice, it's a matter of nature, law of creation.
Good cause I already spoke up for that Responsibility, so I got this :D.
You sure are a crypto-dude Mr. Baah, can't help liking your style somehow, and have to admit you have some deviously subtle points that well, just kinda poke their way through your enigmatic expression. You are quite a challenging interlocutor :D ...you know, if you're telling me something about myself that I'm not aware of, I consider that a service and I'm grateful. But if it is the case that you are, I'm not quite sure what it is that you are pointing out!
No, I don't do that any more either. Positive/Negative; Light/Dark - can't have one without the other. To that extent, they give each other meaning, even life.
LOL, bit dramatic no? But no, that's not what I meant. There are always consequences of action, so, from my POV, a simple statement of self-forgiveness is just self-delusion if it is not accompanied by an energetic cleanse that one does consciously (emotional, psychological etc - ie dealing with one's own personal shit). The real violence I am talking about in the comment just above yours is hardly of the black-eyed variety - it's the subtle internal violence! This can be violent thought activity and it's expression, amongst others, and I know that I would spend days on end under a dark cloud where my head was full of anger and I would just feed it and feed it and feed it violently. This is the internal violence that mirrors the external. In my (now) holistic approach to life, you can't have one without the other - they are intricately linked. Separation of the two is akin to the state of alienation. My sense of alienation expressed itself in many ways, mostly violent - and of this violence, most of it was internal.
Again going back to the point about not knowing what you are getting at regarding speaking about me. Are you speaking to me as an individual when you say You cannot even eat meat without guilt going down your throat, or are you addressing a hypothetical group of vegans you wanna punch? :D ... I haven't eaten meat since I was 5 years old, although I do remember a fish bone stuck in my throat! I stopped consuming dairy around 2 years ago. I don't proselytize.
see, this is one of your subtle points which, if I'm honest, I must accept as fundamentally sound. I accept that, in spite of my intentions and stated position of not being judgmental and blah blah, some energy will have crept in that may not be neutral. As such, it will be a measure of some emotional or psychological issue I have - ie a bias :), and I take responsibility for it, no problemo! But, to be fair to my good self, I do not think this is a huge component of what has been expressed. Regardless of barge's stated position, the content itself will have independent merit that really can only be investigated for oneself, IMHO!!
you can always choose not to engage with the energy of violence! (not gona have a discussion here about what may be natural so I'm ignoring the second bit).
And to finish off, my friend, I would like to gently point out that, while I accept that I have written the post and therefore invited commentry and criticism, in our exchange in this particular thread, I have not pushed you at all to respond to anything that you have chosen not to respond to - isn't it so? I mean, I'd anyway only wish to point out that you too have anger, and you too (by my definition of it) engage with the energy of violence. This is not an accusation, and I am sure you know it. This violence has an effect on your life that is destabilising, perhaps you may not even be aware of how much so. You may state you tough position of being impervious to suffering, but (the mirror of outside/inside) this can also be seen as Baah's insensitivity to himself, to your own pain and trauma and suffering (and Mr B, if you tell me you don't have such energies within you, well.....go on then, tell me!). You know, if at this moment of reading - NOW - you are feeling kinda weird and awkward, you can becha that this is coz you are not used to self empathy! So, if you will accept a word of advice from me - and haven't I earned it?....well, consider being softer and less violent on yourself. Why the fuck not?
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STOPI'm vegan myself, and there is a lot on this post that I agree. One difficult thing will be for people, at large, to respect other beings. It is not just the fallacy of the superiority of human being, but there are many cultures and societies which value themselves over others. The rich may think they're superior. The white people may think they're superior, etc. As long as racism, sexism, homophobia etc. stand, eating meat will still happen. I doubt that humans that are unable to respect other humans with respect are able to treat animals with respect. It's a sad truth; although I may be wrong.
Taking ethics outside of the question, the only reason that might make sense for meat-eating is that it is more accessible and cheaper in certain places. For me, taking mortality aside, I would still be consuming a plant-biased diet, and I am sure more people would if they knew more accurate information.
Yes indeed, lack of respect is key in this, and it applies to the other examples you provide. However, this - practically speaking is an individual choice: accept (or fight/resist) the fact of violence in one's life and the consequences or do something about it at a personal level such that one mitigates violence in oneself. There is no pre-requisite to wait on others before acting! It does boil down to this IMO. This is by no means just a dietary issue - it is holistic and applies to all aspects of life, and at profound and hidden levels of being. Engaging with violence in any form does violence to the self (certainly at an energetic level). Violence is accompanied by a lack of respect. I wonder if at heart of the apparent imperviousness towards the suffering of other sentient beings (by no means just animals!), there isn't a deep a lack of self-respect at an individual level!
Thanks for stopping by @poetrybyjeremy!
Yeah. I think many people end up 'justifying' eating meat because you cannot live on a plant-based diet, which is totally false. I think more people would be into plant-based diets if they truly knew about plant-based diets and all the available, mega-delicious meals we have! And as you said, violence, whether towards animals or other humans is an individual choice. Even one person changing their diet makes a big difference - so definitely, we must not wait for everyone to get on board!