A(nother) discussion on voting and reward pool rape

in #steemit7 years ago (edited)

A couple of days ago, a prolific poster that provides market analysis attracted a new patron voter, a whale who has been voting just about every post at 100% with a 300 dollar odd vote.

At the time of me writing this and by using @ausbitbanks's steemviz.com/pendingpayouts page, the account has:

78 total pending payouts : 7710.744 SBD total

Remember that this is only with the support from less than 3 days of whale support with most other posts in the 30-40 dollar range. This is also after heavy flagging from @berniesanders, @thejohalfiles, @grumpycat, @bayrene and many more.

If there are no flags and the support goes for a week, the user will have a weekly payout of around:

78 total pending payouts : 23400 SBD total

That's 7% of the weekly total reward pool? For one user? I don't think it matters how good content is, no one deserves that kind of return on a platform with 30,000 active users. I wonder if he will power it up? I also can't see his wallet past 22 hours ago which is very weird but maybe a glitch?

But, there is another curiousness here in my opinion, there has been no slowing down of posting from the user nor adequate response to the flagging. Just, business as usual. Perhaps he doesn't understand the flagging system (he has been here 5 months he should) perhaps he doesn't care, is greedy, is in on the scam, being paid to take the abuse, paying for the upvote through an exchange, I don't know but, I would have thought some kind of response would have come.

For the 11 months I have been posting at Steemit, I have worked very hard and was posting around 35 full articles and stories per week. I love writing, I love posting but now, I limit how much I post. I actually halved my posting schedule and I literally want to post more but hold myself back. Instead of posting as much, I instead spend time in chat doing a few different things there.

The reason I hold back is because a couple of months ago, I started getting some much welcome support from @blocktrades who often vote a few times a week on my work. I am very grateful for their support yet, I am not going to rape the pool as I see this behaviour as detrimental to the community, platform and the price of Steem in the long-term.

Not that I could rape it though as intelligently, they manually vote and spread their power over a wide network. Yes, some get more support than others and not everyone agrees with their choices but, they even take the time to vote on some of the good comments too. If you do happen to see this @blocktrades, thank you, it is highly appreciated and I have got many DMs thanking you for the comment support too.

But, a whale need not spread their wealth and increase the value of the platform at all, they could self vote only, or like the case above, vote one particular account only. Now, instead of @thejohalfiles, @blocktrades and others like them who are prolific supporters of content, they are instead using their voting power to flag down pool raping activity.

What a pathetic waste of their time and value, but one thing should be apparent to observers, the whales do care what happens to the platform, and they are willing to pay the costs to protect it. This is what 'being invested' means, they have skin in the game and must protect their investments. They may not always agree how this is best done though.

I have thought about this before and asked the question but, never found an adequate response. What happens if a 'Mega account' comes in and chooses to rape the pool? What if their 100% vote is 5000 dollars (I estimate that to be about 20M Steem but @penguinpablo's steemnow.com will only calculate to 10M - first world problems). That means that their 10 daily votes are larger than the daily reward pool itself.

Who could do such a thing? Banks, corporations, countries.... Bored bitcoin maximalists? What happens if they choose to only have Russian propaganda in Trending or worse, Flat Earth Society news? This brings up all kinds of questions concerning censorship, remember, they have flags too.

This is a stake based platform and they would definitely have stake. It doesn't mean they care about the platform's future though. 20 million, 100 million for that matter may be throwaway money or their champagne budget.

I was thinking about a possible (ridiculously naive and I expect it to get shot down very fast) solution to such cases that will at least make it harder for such things. What if there was a voting cap on how high a vote can go but if one has power beyond the cap, more votes are allocated.

For a Simple example: if the cap was 100 dollars, a voter who has a 300 dollar vote can only vote to 100 but will get 30 100% votes instead. This may cause lots of other problems I do not know but, I thought I would just add it here as a catalyst for discussion.

So, for discussion:

1- What happens if a very large account chooses to rape the pool
2- What happens if a very large account only votes pro-yadayada content
3- What happens if a very large account flags content they don't like
4- Is there a possible solution to any of these issues

I don't have answers but I feel somewhat morally obligated to raise it for discussion. I am not naive but I think Steemit/Steem has a lot more potential than we have yet seen and it is not just to make people rich, it could really make a difference in the future. But, that future is under constant threat from short-sightedness and the greed of a few.

I can't put myself into the shoes of a whale but I know that I would likely try to find a middle ground between profit and protection of my investment, where protection comes through the development of others like me. Those looking to both profit and grow the platform, to create more like us who spread it further.

We have talked a big game, but to do better than the governments, banks and corporations we admonish, we have to do differently from them. Will we manage or are we destined to repeat what they have taught us?

Taraz
[ a Steemit original ]

Edit: This is my 5000th post - 1041 articles, the rest comments.

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Tough questions... but an important dialogue.

I know the poster in question, as well as the whole dialogue that brought it to light. It's a strange situation.

You touch on something here; that @blocktrades upvoted some of your posts. And my inquiry there... which I also posted on a different post, as a comment... is that when a whale comes along, likes your content a lot and drops some 100% votes on it; that isn't necessarily the POSTER's "fault" unless there's provable collusion.

But we have a different situation here, and it gives rise to your hypotheticals. And the deeper question: Is it possible to have a censorship free platform that also controls rewards?

It would be nice to think that humans are idealistic enough to not "rape" a system that's laying metaphorical "golden eggs" but we have ample world evidence that the voices of people behaving greedily and selfishly outweigh the voices of those who act idealistically. No matter what is done, people will try to find loopholes to exploit and extract benefits for personal gain.

Even if we had a rule that no one account could upvote any other one account more than $100 per 24-hour period, someone who "fragment" their wealth so they could cast 50 $100 votes through 50 accounts.

That has little to do with Steemit, and much to do the with psychological construct that "I want to rule the WORLD, and you can't tell me what to do, and if you try, I will CRUSH you," which seems to run increasingly rampant in our world.

Of course, I'm not offering up any answers here, just more points for discussion.

Several weeks ago I added a comment on one of his posts (I am a follower and was an upvoter of his) that perhaps it would be better to post less so as not to look rapey. I was essentially shouted down by other supporters. I left it as is. My reasoning was not that he was rapoing (at the time) but that if he posted less, perhaps some bigger accounts could add an autovoter. 10 posts a day with some just reiterating results is a bit much in my opinion, especially with such large rewards.

I have no real solutions either and without large stake, no right to really demand one. But, the activation of the flags does indicate a willingness to do what is right, even if it happens to be in self-interest also.

Part of the problem could be that because of all of the poor behaviour, people assume the life here is limited so better gain and get out before it collapses. Many of the largest earners are constantly powering down and spreading into other coins. I understand this to some degree, it should be done but should they keep getting rewarded for not supporting the system? Again, decentralised freedom but it raises questions of personal morality.

This is a great discussion and I too have voted for the account in the past before the posting rose to 10 times a day. I stopped voting on the account because I thought the rewards were getting too high and the account was posting too often.

But what I really want to comment on is the notion you raised here about what's to stop a new whale or group from completely dominating the platform?

It's a very troubling idea, especially in terms of a way a nefarious actor (new whale account) could use their massive voting power to completely rape/destroy/shutdown the system.

As an example, what if there were posts being made pointing out corruption and collusion in the pharmaceutical industry and politicians that special interests would prefer was not seen by the general public? Now the Blockchain is said to be censorship-proof but in this instance an enormous whale account could flag and destroy any accounts that posted on the issue and there would be little anyone could do about it. Perhaps there are ways to counteract this possibility that I'm not aware of. It is a scary and sobering thought though especially for those who see the Blockchain as a beacon of free speech.

I suspect this is what the Steemit account is held for?

I've also seen @ned in the wallets of larger stakeholders (early on after buy in), which I find interesting. Perhaps to sound them out and get them on side?

I would hope that any major foul play would be a major news story here and knowing 50% is locked up in @steemit, I think there are enough of 'us' to collectively stamp out obvious and platform threatening wrong doings.

That's a very good point, the Steemit account is inactive, as far as I can tell, but maybe laying in wait in case something like this were ever to happen.
I think you're right, we'd have to come together as a community and take collective action in order to prevent such a danger.

Still something that should be considered before it actually happens.

Yes indeed, and that's why I'm glad to have thought provoking people like @tarazkp around.

I wonder just how much Steem could be claimed by a new account now?

They would obviously need to invest it to SP, therefore becoming a stake holder, with 3 months to wait until this could be pulled - another safety feature to lower the risk of hostile money arriving?

For some of the potential players out there, Is the Steemit account large enough?

The account holds 20 million more SP than the next 19 in the list, so I am assuming so!

The account holds as much vested SP than the first 66 accounts combined, with this 66th account holding around 250,000 SP.

It is this exact thing that I am most interested in finding out about. I suspect as it currently stands, there is little anyone can do about it but,I am hoping that in such a scenario, there is a 'witness emergency protocol' to counteract it. But, this raises a censorship question and where it may lead.

You know that you are first on their list right? ;)

I would be disappointed if I wasn't ;)

Hi V4, a little off subject here, but I wanted to turn you onto the work of Patrick Lancaster as he is now posting at Steemit and is the only on the ground US reporter in the Ukrainian breakaway regions. He has just started on Steemit and is now uploading solid original content, mostly video and small reports. He's a big asset to the Steemit platform and to truth in general. I hope you find his work as interesting as I do and can possibly help get him further attention throughout the Steemit community. Kind regards, CoS.

https://steemit.com/dtube/@patricklancaster/og1tz24o

Buying the stake would push the price impossibly high?

I agree he is getting much more reward than he probably needs. But i also want to point out that every body who posts about him gets huge returns. BernieSanders posted about him many times and earned 10x more than his usual posts. And every comment he posted got the same 50-60 people up voting up. And what happened when i commented against him? Downvotes poured into my comment and hid it. I dont believe Berniesanders is in it for us. But i believe he is in it for himself. He has the same people up voting every single comment. This seems fishy as well. I believe we are seeing haejin forming as a whale. Which isn’t against the rules. And i think these other whales, berniesanders, feel threatened that he is gaining so much support and money through this platform. I’m not saying haejin is justified. But you cant be upset at someone else when you are using the same techniques as that person. So i would recommend to everyone to go dig into the funding behind Bernie and look at who is constantly up voting his posts. And then look at his comments. He doesn’t hold back from posting comments, and he gains money from each. He is simply advancing himself by attacking another.

I feel like I've either discussed having a cap, or seen a cap be discussed. The challenge always becomes "What if an article truly deserves XYZ value?"

Maybe if we can figure out a way to limit a self-vote to a specific value? But then the challenge would likely become "I'm an investor and am here to share in the rewards after I bought in for XYZ dollars, I would like to see a return on my investment of ABC percent."

There are too many gray areas. Flags are here to "self-police" the community. It's unfortunate that as SBD and Steem gain value in the marketplace, more and more people are going to be looking here to invest in Steem and SBD to "earn a quick buck". Since that's not the intent of Steemit (although it's not prohibited by the rules of the platform), whales will be forced to educate these newcomers via flags.

The current system works. It's not always pretty, and some whales may not enjoy doing it, but it's what we have .. and it's a very intelligently thought out system. Changing certain things will only de-value the platform in my opinion (such as adding arbitrary caps based on arbitrary numbers such as reputation or Post vs Comment, etc.).

It's an important topic, but I'm not sure if anyone has figured out how to truly achieve a "more fair" system than the one that was originally developed and implemented on Steemit. The foresight of this platform is actually astonishingly powerful.

There is a max payout value column in the 'Comments'(Posts and comments) table in the Database where the value, I think, is currently set at 1,000,000

It is powerful indeed and I am hoping that it will manage to make it through these 'teething problems' as there is so much value yet to come. The negotiations that go on here are a microcosm of what is required in the real world so it is possible that if we find some solutions, it could knock-on to the masses in some way.

I truly don't understand why its even possible to self upvote. I don't see the value in it for the system, only for the person who is using that.

But I have also the understanding that this discussion is already multiple done here on steemit. So maybe one of you can give me the reason of the self voting possibility?

If you're an investor, you want to see a return on your investment. Your most efficient way to do that is via self-voting.

Also, votes get you attention on Steemit. Some people will not even view your post unless it has at least 1 vote to begin with. Therefore, it's advantageous to self-vote for more views.

It's all just a part of the way the platform was designed.. with altruism at heart.

Its interesting that i was thinking exact that a few momentos ago...
We all Desire the freedom to do whatever we like, but with humans its Impossible to reach an ideal situation where everyone does good to everyone...
Look at communism. In the paper It would be the perfect igualitarian politicalha system, but throw some humans in It and what happens? The hunger for Power and Control only apply the ideas that fits the powerful.
That is How humanity is. We are egotistic creatures, and for every altruistic person there is a selfish one.
Freedom and fairness only works when there is rules to control the wellbeing If the community.
What worries me in this case, besides the possibility that few accounts can control the flow of information, is that i dont see the devs positioning themselves on matters like this.
And they are the ones that set the rules of the system.
Maybe we should move more towards a democratic system than a libertarian/anarchy system?
Tough questions, but devs and witness definetly have to position themselves.

@tarazkp Thank you for this, I agree with everything! The platform shouldn't provide a single user with the possibility to achieve such a percentage of the reward pool. There must be some limits. What if they decide to cash out one day? The rewards should be about building the platform, not allowing a single user the ability to destroy it. Then what if such news keep spreading? I don't think it would be good for steem's future.

yes, it definitely makes the idea of the platform look farcical.

Hey @tarakzp, I'm not keen on posting links to my own blog in comments, but could you take a quick glance on my last post? It's got an idea about this subject precisely and I would love your opinion.

I don't mind links posted if related to the post or relevant to the discussion :)
I will drop by soon.

Thanks man, I appreciate that. In the meantime, just keep writing your posts, they are all what I consider to be quality content. And that's what Steem should be all about.

Is the natural consequence of the current system. Spam posting, self-voting, vote buying, whale excess are just the standard. If anything, despite the scandalous price, things seem to be improving a little due to new competition.

This is but one example of how high levels of descentralization related to money are but a dream, in my humble opinion.

It has a long way to travel before utopia is reached.

i agree with you. i get worried myself.

what if a group of whales form an alliance to upvote something to suit their needs?

on the other hand, if the system is truly decentralized as it should be, no whale should have enough power to do something a million other minnows disagree with.

then there's also the cases where a group of minnows get together with foul intensions to deliberately downvote something and they have power over average folks who don't have the exposure. yes racist/sexist/etc minnows often get together and i've seen it in other communities.

so i still have a lot of questions regarding decentralization. but my take is no central system should ever restrict ANYBODY, whales or minnows. except the restrictions they would have in a free market.

i don't think any one person will have a creative idea to stop a billion dollar whale if the whale decides to simply overpower everybody or abuse the system. in that case there should be enough minnows to stop the process. if not, it's what we deserve.

my hopes is that there will be enough people to stop anything like that.

so i still have a lot of questions regarding decentralization. but my take is no central system should ever restrict ANYBODY

I agree but, in the 'real world' bad actors are know and have physical skin in the free market. Here, (currently) they can remain anonymous and act with very little cost other than their investment.

yes we have the abusers. i think it's part of the freedom. don't get me wrong i do agree with you.
it's just that living in a very centralized nation i've experienced how one restriction can lead to another. eventually you end up with a bunch of rules that only help the few that has power. and the ones who pay them and work with them.

but minnows.. if there's enough of them, they should have the power to bring down a whale and that whale can no longer dictate anything. right now i don't think we have a system that allows us to do that? as in if you're a whale you're staying a whale?

Human greed is trying to kill decentralization.We can't let that happen.

I agree, there should be some sort of limit to how much weight a whale can possibly have in voting to avoid abuse. Maybe not a maximum per vote like you proposed but some-sort of system that decreases vote values with regards to frequency of votes towards an user i.e. the more someone upvotes the same account the less that vote has value, this would encourage whales to vote different authors they support and not abusing the system even if nothing forbids them to create multiple accounts...

If someone invests in a huge load of steem power, he'll have increased the value of steem dramatically. If that someone then chooses to rape the reward pool, he'll be raping his own investment...
Why would anyone do this? And... will someone ever do this?

It is not just for the raping of it and for some, that kind of money is insignificant. Hypothetically, what if Zuckerberg decided that Steem was a threat. hypothetically...

I don't have answers :S
I'd cry for weeks if Zuckerberg was a whale here. He'd upvote all different kinds of advertisements.
Could you imagine a Coca Cola advertisement getting a $4000 dollar payout? THE HORROR!

I'm curious how Smart Media Tokens are going to solve it next month! #hope 🤣🤣

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