How to fix downvoting: a set of proposals for a solution

in #steemit8 years ago (edited)


Downvoting has gotten a lot of attention recently, with even @dantheman writing 2 articles about it.
https://steemit.com/steem/@dantheman/negative-voting-and-steem
https://steemit.com/politics/@dantheman/the-politics-of-negative-voting

It's important to read both, they provide context and this post is meant as an extension from this background.

Mostly though I want to focus on this idea, from @dantheman:

The goal of Steem is to reward users proportional to the value they bring. An objectively bad behavior is one where a user manages to get large rewards while providing others with little value.

There are really two goals here:

  1. Reward users proportional to the value they bring
  2. Prevent large rewards for low/no value

Later @dantheman discusses the issues with gaming the system for whales, so I’m going to add:

  1. Prevent powerful users from gaming the system to their own benefit.

Hypothetical situation

Let's assume there are two imaginary groups: the pro-sentient plants group, and the anti-sentient plants group. Let's call them the Pros and the Negs.

These two groups both begin providing value, writing good articles, getting upvoted, and beginning to build following. This is good, because this increases the value of the Steemit network.

And then they get pissy

Somehow, the members of these two groups get upset and begin to downvote each other's posts into oblivion. This begins to hide such posts on the site, destroy reputations, sap both groups earnings, and makes Steemit a hostile place in general. In the long term, Steemit is worse off.

If one of these groups is substantially larger than the other, then it can overwhelm the smaller group and essentially censor them from the site. As the downvotes add up and reputation drops, the smaller group has less and less ability to fight back. In addition, if the smaller group tries to make peace and DOESN'T retaliate there is no way for them to save themselves the damage, other than to bring in more people to upvote (harder than it seems).

Now, what if the larger, hostile, group begins downvoting these allies? Unless those allies have tremendous Steempower, they will quickly find themselves overwhelmed.

A NOT so hypothetical situation

China, Russia, and other nations have well funded social media organizations that have vast resources. In this case, they may actually want something like Steemit to succeed because unlike other social media platforms, you can BUY influence. For a nation-state, that's a godsend. They have the time and resources to create a ton of well-funded sockpuppet accounts. These accounts wouldn't attack the system as a whole, but would instead devote that influence to targeted censorship: pushing certain stories to "trending" and silencing opposition.

These actors could invest tremendous resources into Steemit but not be "invested" in Steemit

Investing and "being invested" are different. Throwing some money and time at a problem is not "being invested" for a nationstate or other similar organization (corporations could do the same). It’s not the same mentality as an artist posting day after day trying to build a following. For an existing, powerful person or organization it's just a strategy, a disposable tool. These organizations don't care about the success of the whole, just ensuring that the site can be used as a tool to achieve their ends. Right now buying in for $40k would be sufficient to wield tremendous power. Spending 10x this is just a single line-item for such actors.

Downvoting as it exists is a threat to the Steemit ecosystem

Let's look at the ways that downvoting can be hostile to the network:

  1. Groups downvote each other and eventually one or both no longer wishes to remain on the site - bad for Steemit. Ideal setup would be both groups able to produce value but unable to affect one another.
  2. Large, monied organizations have both the time and resources to buy/create whale-like influence and use it to target subjugation on subject matter they don't like.
  3. Censorship of any kinda is hostile to a blockchain based network that is opposed to censorship intrinsically.

What would a solution look like?

Let's talk about requirements before I propose my solutions. What we need is the following:

  1. A system that allows both up and downvotes for curation purposes
  2. A system that keeps groups that "can't play nice together" separated and able to produce value in peace.
  3. A system that restricts the power of potentially hostile actors from using their power on the network to censor views they don't agree with.
  4. Doesn't rely on whales or otherwise "riding to the rescue". That invites tremendous politics and politics of this nature tend to create distrust in the system and damage it.

All 4 are important. Especially with the way rewards are distributed, it's inevitable that there will be a lot of concentrated power in a few hands. This is itself worth of another post because that has other issues outside of downvoting (but similar patterns can emerge).

Proposal 1: Blocking of certain users

Allow users to "block" other users. This blocking would have a few key effects:

  1. It would "mute" the blocked account.
  2. It would remove the ability for the blocked account to make any status/payout related actions for GOOD OR BAD. Their upvotes and downvotes would be completely ignored.

These two aspects would help keep groups separated. It also discourages people who "block" people for a single or justified downvote because they would lose the potential payouts of that same person in the future.

Proposal 2: Force comment with downvote

If someone's content is bad, or you take issue with it, or whatever, the only way that user can improve is to get feedback. A downvote doesn't provide context, it doesn't provide a why. An upvote doesn't either, but it's a lot easier to infer: "I think this is good content for the network". An upvote says "more of this". But a downvote could be about an aspect, like bad writing. What does the author need to fix to make it up-voteable?

Proposal 3: End self up-voting

@dantheman notices the issue with self-voting in his own writing when he talks about the "upvote-only" economy. Here a whale could just block all other whales and vote for themselves over and over. It doesn't stop whales from having proxy accounts to do the same thing, but the hassle is greater. Fixing the proxy account problem is an isuse for another day.

Ending self voting also just makes sense: If you don't think your post is great, why did you write it? The shear production of a post and the work involved is an intrinsic up-vote since you only can make so many posts a day before things get diluted.

This still doesn't solve one of the REAL underlying problem he identifies which is the need for other whales to act as payout police. Having payout police like this will not scale as the user base gets too big, or even too-multilingual. In the case of current whales, @berniesanders has been working to try and balance payouts via downvoting but that too has lead to worries. His balancing of @dollarvigilante lead to a lot of controversy. Single human judgements are prone to that. In addition, I doubt the current whales can read/write every language or even have the time/energy to try and track all this. Future whales may very well be the corporate/nation sized actors mentioned above which can definitely not be trusted to be effective monitors on the network.

The second remaining issue is what to do about whales that just create proxy accounts and use their high SP account to upvote everything they do (to get around the upvote limitation).

Proposal 4: Fast die-off for voting power on same person

This is to help mitigate the proxy problem. If account A upvotes the content of Account B, their power to upvote B is reduced across other posts. This penalty would be cumulative, and the re-charge would need to be long. This isn't a perfect fix, but it makes everything more complicated. Whales would need many accounts, would need to use all their votes across accounts, and then would not get an easy transfer. Can this still get gamed? Yes, but it's harder and the behavior patterns of gaming would be very easy to detect as well and then subsequent approaches could be taken.

Proposal 5: Allow curation tags

Allow curators to “tag” posts in ways that are not used for organization but just for metadata. For instance, curators could flag content in informative and evaluative was such as “badly written”, “chinese”, “thorough”, “dishonest”, “scam”, “adult”, etc. These wouldn’t be used for reputation or anything (yet?) until we began to see how it played out, but would help enrich the ecosystem.

Remaining issues

  • How to handle powerful bad actors from forming a hostile cabal against the network for external gain?
  • How to deal with the follower problem: just upvoting popular users and getting free payout, regardless of quality. This strategy gets worse the more people do it, breaking the point of curation.
Sort:  

Proposal 6: WhalePower (the bigger badder steempower for true believers)


This proposes that users can be offered a new token in the steem ecosystem that significantly amplifies their voting power.
Currently there are 3: Steem, Steem-Backed Dollars (SBD), and SteemPower. But what if someone is truly here for much more than money, would like to meaningfully participate, but is starting out with few resources and feels that steempower does not give them enough water to use to water the most beautiful flowers in the garden? We believe many users who have concerns over the "whale problem" might be very interested in a new, stronger powerup--that requires the ultimate act of commitment?

I propose a new Steem Token called “WhalePower” (WP). WP can only be earned by locking away steem forever, taking it completely out of the supply of steem. Due to the sacrifice required to earn WP, holding 1 of these tokens could give that account from 5x-10x more voting power than with regular SteemPower...but they can never power WP down. In return, users who have high whalepower will be seen as those who truly are willing to sacrifice for the entire ecosystem. These people would be highly esteemed in the community and would become the beacons around which others would gather for sustenance.

These PowerWhales wouldn't have the same incentive to act in the best interest of Steem, like what Steem Power gives. If you can never cash out, you don't care that much about the value of Steem in general, only your own influence. Of course you might have both SP and WP.

@idealist I hadn't thought of that, but you are right. That is indeed another subtle distortion on their power.

I agreed with your proposal #whalepower

The problem here is the well-monied hostile actor problem. They don't care about locking the cash away, that's not their goal. This would actually make that threat much, much worse.

This assumes there will not be well-monied beneficial actors who more than even it out. Hostile actors would not be able to significantly harm the system though because others could similartly power up to help mitigate against it.

If Bob has 1 billion dollars in whalepower and is hostile toward the system, and John has 1 billion whalepower used to reward top content creation guilds who I have helped create by watering them and providing them with more resources, John would have an army of content producers who earn steemusd. If bob attacks effectively and harms the value of the steem token, these armies of people are going to collectively earn and store more Steembacked dollars than bob. They all buy Steem and power it up to get more steempower (not even whalepower) as they watch the hostile actor's strength in the ecosystem wane over time. Why? Because after even a successful attack on the network like this, the hostile will have had their account outed (and it isn't like they could transfer whalepower to another account), which will mean the accounts reputation will be Horrible and all serious steem users will know them and most will actively work to ensure they can never effectively pull off attacks again. John will have an army of people paying him out with numerous smaller tx's while they will ignore the attacker. And the attacker will not have the power again unless they are willing to buy/earn more steem to lock away forever (aka burn).

There are lots of supervillains, only one batman. History and game theory do not support your analysis. Do not depend on peoples good nature.

Put another way, do you know anyone who is willing to put ~1 billion dollars into steem just to moderate it? The truth is great powers don't really cancel each other out. They are like two big waves coming together - maybe the sea is calm afterwards but anything in between just got blown to splinters.

People and institutions are semi-rational actors. They will work together and oppose each other depending on their goals. The USA, China, Russia, and many, many other governments have shown they are all interested in suppressing speech of different kinds.

Basically: There is NO ONE on earth who can oppose that level of force financially and they would be assassinated if they tried.

Again: you cannot depend on the existence of "good" or "neutral" parties (if such a thing truly exists) but only on things that are contractually enforced by the algorithm. The moment people and power are involved, everything goes out the window.

Furthermore, the system would likely aid these forces for rational reasons. If all these powers were to "buy in" in order to manipulate/suppress news, then the value of steem would rise as these huge buy orders came in. It would be a massive cash cow. The vast majority of users would benefit in the short term, but in the long term the system would now be held ransom by the very forces many are here to avoid.

But just like the stock market, current shareholders would LOVE a massive (and ongoing) spike from such markets because they would get wealthy off of it - just like bitcoin holders have seen the value skyrocket due to capital fleeing China.

Hi @rampant, honestly this is an awesome contribution, really interesting analysis! Hopefully will get some of this proposals in place on the following versions of steemit.

Thank you! I really want this community to succeed and to avoid some of the pitfalls that other platforms have hit. Especially early on figuring out the right way to handle this is critical for keeping user growth and engagement high. Downvotes have the chance of chasing people off the platform, which is (usually) bad.

I am thinking that one good solution would be looking into system of moderation & metamoderation on Slashdot, and perhaps similar systems elsewhere. Basicly, everyone can moderate from time to time (upvote/downvote), and those up/downvotes come with tags. They liken it to jury duty. Meta moderation is 2nd round, were people moderate how the moderation was applied to random comments.

Perhaps the ideas from a system like that could be used with some modification?

@xanoxt Slashdot probably has the best operating moderation system. We should absolutely use that.

Made it into suggestion post. Or should I better post to github, or something?

Interesting proposals so far number 5 sounds easy enough to implement. Keep up the good work!

You give good example and proposals, i have learned a lot from this post.

I'm really hoping the community can contribute even more good ideas or (especially) someone with the math chops to do modeling of behavior so we can test ideas like this in a lab type environment.

How about taking out downvote, so that no more downvoting on any post. If they don't like the post skip it and if they like it upvote it. I sense a networking around the community which is possible, Im not telling this is true but it could be. Where a group of people maybe a combination of whales, dolphins, orcas and minnows helping each other gaining upvotes while ignoring those who are not member of their group.

There are lots of new content nowadays and it number will increase in few months or so due to the influx of new members. Majority of them are lost in abyss (including my posts) but for those who knows somebody (whales, dolphins, orcas) in the community has an advantage.

If this is true, what will happen to steemit?

Did you read the @dantheman articles I linked to at the top? Removing downvote entirely has negative consequences economically. We need downvotes, but we also need to restrict their abuse.

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