Is SteemPower Useful for Other Blockchain Apps?
What's the point of SteemPower outside this text-content/blogging system that was the premiere first app?
How is it relevant outside of this app system? What if Steemit Inc. had created another app first, would there even be SteemPower?
What other apps that could be made, would actually use SteemPower? A music app? How would that work?
I currently see SP as only an invention for one app (or possibly a few more?), and wouldn't have been fabricated on other apps.
I think SteemPower may have been a big mistake...
"Steem power is REAL power on this platform right now. Having it does not mean you are wise, intelligent, or decent. It only means you were in the right place at the right time, or you spent a bunch of money." - dwinblood
I think there are ways it could be made useful, as part of additional apps incorporated into Steemit (extensions of Steemit, Inc.) as an incentivizing tool.
Let's take some extremely generalized examples: Let's say Steemit, Inc develops and releases a platform (or add-on) for organizations and charities... in part these raise funds by driving their supporters here, and their supporters can create content and easily transfer their rewards to the organization of their choice. In addition, have a built-in "do good things" crowdfunding app based on Steem/cryptocurrency. LIKE the blogging platform, it's a "soft entry" for people not familiar with alt. currencies. Using a sort of referral system, SP could be used as a "for each of your followers who joins and CONTRIBUTES (that's the key part, to avoid spamming), we'll give you 10SP (or whatever)." Incentivizes bringing new people to Steemit, but not with liquid Steem, while ALSO increasing the relative influence of the organization within the Steemit infrastructure by building their SP balance.
Let's say Steemit, Inc. adds an eBay/Etsy like peer-to-peer marketplace that's as cool as those two sites were before they got all "corporatized." Art, comics, weird collectibles, antique toilet seats, organic non-GMO heirloom seeds, you name it. Think PeerHub on mega steriods.
You incentivize building a worthy selection in the marketplace (because who's gonna shop at a store with empty shelves?) by encouraging artists or small sellers to put their stuff INTO the marketplace by offering them SP for each listing or group of listings they add to the marketplace. Better yet, make it "time release:" "We'll give you 5SP per item you list, but you don't actually get any of it till you've put up 20 items." Maybe you even can get awards of SP for reaching milestones... 20 successful transactions, 100 successful transactions earn you a SP reward. It's merit/participation based.
Actual payment for the items can be in Steem, BTC or whatever... but the seller gets a SP "bonus" for being active. Serves several purposes: Not only does it create a "functional use" for Steem as a method of payment-- in turn, making it more attractive to investors-- it also can create a revenue stream for Steemit, Inc. (aka something to "back" Steem, in a business model sense)... using SP to encourage people to enter the marketplace and make them stakeholders as a result of BUILDING the marketplace... maybe even extend it. Let's say I'm a seller on Etsy and eBay (which I am), offer me 5SP for every existing "off system" customer I have who joins here and I'm not only a happy camper, but it helps build the marketplace... WHILE it also makes me (aka sellers in general) stakeholders IN the platform.
There are loads of variations. We just have to think of SP a little differently... maybe an analogy would that SP is more like a "coupon" where liquid Steem is "cash."
Just thinking out loud...
Great ideas! Thanks for that.
This is only undermining and vague speculating, and really confusing, on purpose! I'm beginning to think you're waging an information war.
Steem Power, as you know, is blockchain level and so it doesn't need have a purpose on any app built on steem (such as steemit.com) because it's already taken care of. The content-text is the platform, not the app. That it is a blog is an app, but is not directly related to SP.
To reiterate, SP is vested Steem. It currently gives holders a stake which has proportional influence on post and witness voting.
So any app on Steem that provides voting, thus allowing users to get Steem for their usage, would use SP indirectly as part of the voting system, by system design. More interesting is the use of Steem in apps or outside.
If it was then so was the entire enterprise.
I keep thinking I'm going to stop commenting on your posts but then I see something outrageous and feel obliged! 😜
LOL, alright... I do think it may have been from what I'm seeing with respect to this one app where there is a community of people that are not represented equally in how things are evaluated. So I ask, what use does it have in other places, is it only useful on the text-platform where people accept this concentration of power this way? Does it work in other apps? Yet you think these are not valid questions to ask, which I didn't even mention. The questions I raised were even lest drastic than you claim. The power and control over the flow of information and evaluation of content in the apps is not something I like. But, you think asking these questions is bad and wrong of me? That is interesting.
I didn't and wouldn't say bad or wrong no. Undermining? Yes. Misleading? Yes. You seems to suggest I would silence you, but that's not my MO.
This article indicates you are willing to imply what is factually incorrect in order to make your broader points about power inequality, despite your better knowledge of the facts. And obviously I oppose that.
What's factually incorrect?
That Steem Power is used by any app. It's precisely the opposite, it's on the blockchain only. It's not the apps that give those that have a lot of SP influence, it's the Steem blockchain.
While UI is really important, it's not able to change how SP is used directly. An app could refuse to implement voting, but that would be kind of missing the point of Steem, no rewards would be dealt out.
Please read this comment which talks about the ideas I have been talking about, the management of community, and asks people to think about the issue: https://steemit.com/steemit/@krnel/consensus-exists-only-in-equalitarian-groups-where-everybody-has-the-same-rights-to-express-their-will-by-influence-and-be#@dwinblood/re-krnel-re-dwinblood-re-krnel-consensus-exists-only-in-equalitarian-groups-where-everybody-has-the-same-rights-to-express-their-will-by-influence-and-be-20170304t224936943z
I've been thinking about it of course, I promise 😅
It's a good comment by @dwinblood, I agree with a lot of it. Not really related to this though.
Yes it is. You try to point out how I'm misleading. I'm trying to get people to think about the issues in another way. Is there a use for SP beyond this aspect of control? Will this aspect of control work elsewhere? I didn't state it as such. I'm asking questions to get people towards thinking about that. call that misleading all you want. This is all related. I need to ask different types of questions. It relates to the management of the community and platform by those who have the power, and how that would work in other apps. Dwinblood's comment was about that control of power. Yet, you claim its not related... ok...
Here's a pre-pre-whitepaper for a music blockchain someone is working on:
Mission
Our mission is to add trust to the music business through full transparency by making the most of the blockchain technology. Instead of just moving the same old model to the internet or blockchain, full trust and transparency allows us to go even further, as to create a platform where everyone gets rewarded for they work they do.
There are different types of work:
For every action of work there’s a reward thus power, availability and sustainability belong to the community that is created on top of the following pillars.
Integrity
Every transaction is recorded in a decentralized, public and trustable blockchain.
Everyone has access to all records since the beginning of platform existence.
Every transaction is immutable and cannot be changed.
Community
No single entity controls the whole or majority of the system, instead it belongs to the whole community placing equal power in every and each unique individual.
...
I like the sound of that more, the Community part, and that's the thing I'm trying to bring here, and get people to understand why that's better. Thanks. Peace.
I get that, and it might be better. I'd be happy for Steem to try it out in a hardfork. We are in beta still after all. Then see if it works or blows everything up 🙂
I see Steem Power as what separates the Steem blockchain from other crypto tokens. Apps that want a Proof-of-Stake style voting system with an integrated incentive to vote (curation) will be drawn to Steem instead of the hundreds of other tokens.
Once Steemit and its partnered apps become more popular, it will draw a large number of investors who will drive up the price of Steem and encourage the early investors to 'cash out'. There will be early adopters that hang on but I think the centralization of Steem Power will diminish if we can achieve mass adoption.
Let's avoid taking the current growing pains of the platform as a reason to destroy our economic moat/defining characteristic.
I agree that we shall not run too quickly and change the whole Steem/SP model. BUT, in my view Steem requires more services and apps quickly to be able to stay relevant. I do not believe Steem can survive only with blogging services. I have the fear that the way SP is implemented today, it'll prevent others from selecting Steem as the currency for their services. I can tell you, I have an idea already for some time for a service using a non-FIAT currency, and I'm here to understand how Steem/Steemit works to see if Steem can be that currency. I cannot come to a conclusion yet, but thus far, Steem seems to be a bit too chaotic to build a service on which shall feed people (read: employees) mouths.
Except theres no reason to believe they would want this sort of voting system, and even if they did, they would want proof of stake in their app, not steemit. Why would someone elses project reward SP holders with influence, they would want to reward stake holders in THEIR app with influence.
The rest of the comment is circular logic. It will become popular because people want it and people will want it because its popular.
It's hard to reward people if your token has no value, and despite the current fall of the STEEM price, the token is still rank #15 in terms of Market Cap. If you create you own token you will not likely get anywhere near that value (ask the 690 tokens below Steem) and therefore will not be able to distribute meaningful rewards.
I think you are missing my logic. The app developers are already working and Steemit itself is still actively in development. I think our turning point will be the roll out of communities which is what will bring order to the current stream of posts (subreddits were a crucial part of Reddit's success). The increased popularity/adoption will be driven by platform/apps improvements, I may have lead you to believe that it would magically appear (poor writing skills ... I'm an engineer).
I do believe the balancing needs some tweaking in the rewards/influence curves, but these are refinements, not a change of the current system.
Im not sure you understand what the term "growing pains" is.
Steem is shrinking in virtually every way. If you want to describe the pain in a physical way, "contractions" might be a better metaphor than growing pains.
I'm looking at growth as a function of development of the technology, not active users or the price of STEEM. The technology is the key to growth, Steem is currently far to early in its development to be measuring its success by the same metrics as fully developed platforms.
I also do have a hard time finding good reasons and use for SP outside blogging services. Even forum (Q&A, HOWTO) type of services are not helped with SP, since the correct answers to problems, or the correct way in doing things, needs to come out at top based on facts rather than based on personal taste.
With music streaming, I also do not see how SP will work. Actually "Thirsty Records" (an Australian recording studio and label) is now crowd funding their wish for a p2p streaming service they base on Steem. I actually asked them last week how they will use Steem and SP, how artists are rewarded, how they actually think they can onboard artists with the ever devaluation of Steem and all the 'wars' going on within the Steem/Steemit community at the moment. Still waiting for their response, but very interested to understand how they will manage the challenges of Steem/SP today.
I think it's fundamentally flawed as a way to accurately represent evaluations from people, since the evaluations are being done based on s very small number of people who have the concentration of power. Time will demonstrate such a reality if it is indeed the case, right now I don't like what I see about SP control in the community... Thanks for the valuable feedback, I appreciate it!
Have you read the steemit whitepaper? It's been awhile since I have, but the rationale and reasons for the 3 tiered system of tokens was described quite well in there. SP represents your ability to affect the direction of the platform. With the change from a 2 year to a (90 day?) vesting period the dynamics of SP and how it is used has changed.
I myself thought such a dramatic change dis-incentivized a longer term investment in the project. Being able to "buy" your influence rather than earn it also seems like a flaw in the design.
However, getting back on point to think of SP as a tradeable token as opposed to STEEM or SBD misses the point of the original design, where SBD and STEEM tokens were the tradeable tokens, not SP.
Like I said, It's been awhile since I read the whitepaper so I may not have all the details straight, but your post had me thinking back to the concepts of the 3 tiered token system and the reasons for it.
Thanks for the feedback. Yup I read it after 2 weeks here. I was new to crypto, didn't know about how the reality worked out, but thought things were ok until things changed with flags lol. The concentration of power over things is something I had heard as a warning, and I didn't see how things were in July as I wasn't here, but I suspect many people left after they saw how that played out for only certain posts/authors getting most of the rewards. The flagging for rewards is another symptom of that concentration of power.
I have a better question for you. Whats the point of SP at all?
Protecting steem price by forcing people to wait before selling? We've seen clearly that It doesn't. It just makes it take 3 months longer to rip off the bandaid when many people want to sell.
Making the invetment more appealing? With SP incentives mostly gone, it doesn't. It just makes regular steem look less appealing (partially becasue of the dated information in the white paper, but also because why buy the currency if i can't get the full benefits of ownership without a 3 month committment).
There is nothing wrong with a POS based system. But IMO it would be better to let people buy and hold their stake of their own violition, not lock them into a contract like some kind of scammy CD club. Yeah, locking them in helps keep people from leaving, but do we rreally want to be in the business of holding investors against their will? Especially when the cost of doing so is that it prevents many from entering in the first place.
The entire concept of powering up is a ham-fisted attempt at market manipulation.
From what I hear the idea of SP is to keep the inflation low and the infinite surplus hidden.
The 'point' of SP is laid out page 9 of the White Paper,
https://steem.io/SteemWhitePaper.pdf
It confers staking and voting privileges to those with a medium/ long term commitment STEEM (over short term speculators).
Could it work outside a text-content/ blogging system? I don't see why not. I could see SP being used to allocate rewards on a Streaming music/ video app or a Gaming app or even an online shopping app. However keeping the focus on social media/ blogging for now would be sensible.
Yes, but how does it work in other places? I have more SP, so I get to decide what music is rated higher and gets the rewards? And you see that as working? Not the majority of people attributing an evaluation? Having a concentrated group of people setting music trends... sounds great...? Not the majority, but minority that decides what trends...
It would work pretty much the same as it should work here...
I've always said that if STEEM where successful, large SP holders would need to look at their STEEM accounts as small to medium sized business rather than their personal plaything.
Right now STEEM is in it's embryonic stage. The behaviours on the site reflect that. I can see STEEM maturing into a completely different animal - the key is to attract a critical mass of users... which I believe the Steemit team is rightly focused on.
I think a lot of the logic behind why STEEM voting influence is structured the way it is is sound. The arguments around the dangers of Sybill Attacks rule out simply deciding based on a 'majority' of votes.
I think where STEEM erred was in giving a disproportionate of SP to early miners. Whether this can be rectified by allow those that want to to cash out earlier, who knows...
When i invite 100 fresh creative people to steemit and then all of them combined have ZERO POWER even if they all were active providing original good content for a while, but do not have money to buy lots of extra steempower. This will contribute to the fact, that 99 of my invited friends will leave over the course of time and all of them will have the same argument: WTF! I still have 0% influence even 100 of us still have 0% influence .
That´s the key problem i think for speeding up reaching critical mass. The momentary system puts far too much wheight on users financial capabilities, rather than creativity, activity or originality. What is the outlook into the future under this premiss ? Shall we wait until real big wallstreet players see the big potential in STEEMIT and buy out the whales accounts with suitcases full of real money ? Then they will use&control this platform to brainwash, control, and make most of the money as usual. If you do not comply you will get sentenced to 75 downvote-bots for livetime or do they just simply shutdown your RFID implant (=active-key)??...lol . . . ok i was drifting away a bit. . . .srry.
I have no problem with up/down votes as long as the power is somehow balanced, maybe some prog_gurus have a good idea for a finetuning regulatory system preventing injustice and collusion - or just cap_ceiling= a maximum influence per post/vote. The worst of all STEEMIT can do is making the motivated standart user felling total powerless depending on whales. I would prefer getting constantly 2-10$ for a good post from people with some little power of influence who really like my work, rather than getting many times nearly nothing and then suddenly 35$ without having any influence. I am the one from 100 who is always motivated - because it comes from my heart when i do things but thats another story.
I like what you said, in the second part but that pic is strangely scary. Steem Power growing out of his ears :D
I like the idea of getting some programmers to figure it out, but that was supposed to be what ned and dan did already :|
I was also thinking a cap of sorts, but that gives more influence to bots and multiple accounts.
Currently I suppose steem should be earned and that it was bad to have so much given away, stable foundation goes a long way, rather than a big hole and a big dump,
can you use it for anything else like bitcoin does? can you exchange it for goods, or can you exchange it for different crypto currencies? or is it just like you said " a big mistake..."?
I feel like its uterlly useless, it seems to only work on this site, i cant find any crypto market sites or wallets that trade steem into anything else. maybe someone can point me in the right direction
http://www.steemtools.com there is a p2p market some other apps, but it's all underdeveloped
check my post if you wish
https://steemit.com/steemit/@j3dy/save-those-whales-save-those-snails-a-series-on-steemit-full-on-part-a
Tell me what you think :)
i like this.. super sayya :)