, I'm talking about the one forming around how the majority of Steemians would like the flags to be used.
I don't think a majority of steemians have a problem with downvoting. maybe im wrong. I think most steemians were fine with downvoting content they thought was over-valued.
Even after they changed the downvote to a flag, people still continued to use it. The "makeup" post had like 20 flags, IIRC.
So they put progressively more severe warnings and restrictions on it (originally, there was no message. Then the message said "this could effect payout and visibility are you sure", now our current one)
Downvoting didnt stop until onceuponatime made that post threatening reprisals to anyone who who used their downvote. And it was referenced by nearly every author who regularly made trending at the time.
I don't know anything about your assertions regarding writers.I thought the downvote was changed to a flag in the hope that people would not engage for negative reasons. Is there any need to let someone know you don't like their post?
Personally, i prefer honest engagement. Positive, negative or middle-of-the-road. Im just throwing it out there, but maybe we can all interact and express out honest opinions (positive or negative) without the filter of what the UI deems to be inappropriate negativity.
VOting is about expressing how you think a post should be rewarded.
I think most steemians would agree that the disparity in post payout is a big problem. Downvoting over-rewarded posts is far and away the most effective way of addressing that disparity. Stigmatizing it by calling it a flag is counterproductive, IMO
I appreciate the sentiment around valuing honest engagement, I value that too. I think we agree on the outcome, just not the best way to get there :) Now that post rewards can be throttled, the rewards without flags will reflect how the community values the post...assuming bot voting is deployed accurately....from a positive standpoint. (If someone rewards a post early, they have to assume others might reward the post and that the value will increase. If it exceeds what they think is reasonable, they could change their vote.) I don't think it should be for people that don't value a post to attack the reward just because they don't value it....just produce more quality posts that you do like or reward posts that you like (increasing your influence might be a good idea too.) All of that creates positive engagement without the need for a battle and the bad feeling that comes from differing opinions. The flag, as contentious as it is....if used purely for plagiarism and the like....could then work effectively. The consensus around how best to use the present functionality is forming...I honestly believe that downvoting will lead to a lot of bad feeling and far more friction in the end.
Indeed, if all the whales acted in concert in a manner perceived as destructive....like 'inappropriate' flagging, then we'd have a hell of a problem. The point is the only way you can push back against a 'rogue' whale is to have other whales, or everyone else counteract the 'rogue.' The issue we have is that there is a wide interpretation for how to use flags. Yes there is a cultural guidance that is forming but why does someone with the influence Bernie has have to observe the interpretation of others? In fact, to him, he probably thinks he's using the flag appropriately anyway. So we come full circle, push back within the rules....easily done, though a bit of an overhead...and stop worrying, arguing or agonising about it. The view from outside steemit is made much more foggy with all the post and comment time the back and forth gets...rather than clearly explaining the rules and the contingencies available. I hope that makes sense! Sounded good in my head anyway ;)
I think I got what your saying.. lol. I pointed out in the video a downvote he made not only to a post but also, @dantheman.
Now considering the fact that I don't have the power or money to make a difference in this situation... I felt it was necessary to point out and speak up for others who have fell victim or are too nervous to stand up to trigger happy power players by making this video and reminding the community.
The issue we have is that there is a wide interpretation for how to use flags. Yes there is a cultural guidance that is forming but why does someone with the influence Bernie has have to observe the interpretation of others?
there is no cultural guidence. All the other whales downvote material they think is overvalued or overexposed. Smooth has done it (and said so explicitly) ned has done it (remember mr yoda) dan has done it and so have most of the other small whales. Like you said, this is because there is no one who can make them follow the informal "rules".
There are two ways to look at a downvote:
As a flag, that is only to be used in a specific set of circumstnaces.
As a vote that you can use however you see fit.
The thing is, that if our "cultural norm" says we use downvotes as #1, whales absolutely can, and absolutely will ignore the informal rule just as they do right now. So the only way we can have a universal rule that applies to everyone(at least within the way the current system works) is to use votes as votes, the way they are on the blockchain.
The real issue here is that a bunch of not very good, very overpaid writers got together, complained that they didnt want to get downvoted, so the downvote got turned to a flag and got a warning in the UI.
When that didn't work, the the same group of writers threatened to retaliate against anyone who used the downvote in a way they didnt approve of, so people stopped using it.
Thats not a "community standard" thats trying to force people to vote the way you want. Changing the way the vote looks in the UI to discourage people from voting a certain way is no different from ballot tampering.
In reply to @sigmajin - with respect, I'm not talking about a cultural norm forming out of the actions of whales, I'm talking about the one forming around how the majority of Steemians would like the flags to be used. For some individuals that may shift around a bit as time goes by because the flags can be deployed whenever someone wants to deploy them.
I don't know anything about your assertions regarding writers.I thought the downvote was changed to a flag in the hope that people would not engage for negative reasons. Is there any need to let someone know you don't like their post? The flags have been used to control rewards, to punish posts or comments, to discourage material, to show dislike, to indicate plagiarism etc That's a pretty broad brush open to broad interpretation.
I did ;)
you said "all the whales act in concert"
The common problem I see is a rogue whale not in sync with anybody
Replying to this one as we ran out of room! ;) Glad you got me bud! Thanks for bothering to, I appreciate it very much.
replying here due to nesting:
I don't think a majority of steemians have a problem with downvoting. maybe im wrong. I think most steemians were fine with downvoting content they thought was over-valued.
Even after they changed the downvote to a flag, people still continued to use it. The "makeup" post had like 20 flags, IIRC.
So they put progressively more severe warnings and restrictions on it (originally, there was no message. Then the message said "this could effect payout and visibility are you sure", now our current one)
Downvoting didnt stop until onceuponatime made that post threatening reprisals to anyone who who used their downvote. And it was referenced by nearly every author who regularly made trending at the time.
Personally, i prefer honest engagement. Positive, negative or middle-of-the-road. Im just throwing it out there, but maybe we can all interact and express out honest opinions (positive or negative) without the filter of what the UI deems to be inappropriate negativity.
VOting is about expressing how you think a post should be rewarded.
I think most steemians would agree that the disparity in post payout is a big problem. Downvoting over-rewarded posts is far and away the most effective way of addressing that disparity. Stigmatizing it by calling it a flag is counterproductive, IMO
I appreciate the sentiment around valuing honest engagement, I value that too. I think we agree on the outcome, just not the best way to get there :) Now that post rewards can be throttled, the rewards without flags will reflect how the community values the post...assuming bot voting is deployed accurately....from a positive standpoint. (If someone rewards a post early, they have to assume others might reward the post and that the value will increase. If it exceeds what they think is reasonable, they could change their vote.) I don't think it should be for people that don't value a post to attack the reward just because they don't value it....just produce more quality posts that you do like or reward posts that you like (increasing your influence might be a good idea too.) All of that creates positive engagement without the need for a battle and the bad feeling that comes from differing opinions. The flag, as contentious as it is....if used purely for plagiarism and the like....could then work effectively. The consensus around how best to use the present functionality is forming...I honestly believe that downvoting will lead to a lot of bad feeling and far more friction in the end.
Indeed, if all the whales acted in concert in a manner perceived as destructive....like 'inappropriate' flagging, then we'd have a hell of a problem. The point is the only way you can push back against a 'rogue' whale is to have other whales, or everyone else counteract the 'rogue.' The issue we have is that there is a wide interpretation for how to use flags. Yes there is a cultural guidance that is forming but why does someone with the influence Bernie has have to observe the interpretation of others? In fact, to him, he probably thinks he's using the flag appropriately anyway. So we come full circle, push back within the rules....easily done, though a bit of an overhead...and stop worrying, arguing or agonising about it. The view from outside steemit is made much more foggy with all the post and comment time the back and forth gets...rather than clearly explaining the rules and the contingencies available. I hope that makes sense! Sounded good in my head anyway ;)
I think I got what your saying.. lol. I pointed out in the video a downvote he made not only to a post but also, @dantheman.
Now considering the fact that I don't have the power or money to make a difference in this situation... I felt it was necessary to point out and speak up for others who have fell victim or are too nervous to stand up to trigger happy power players by making this video and reminding the community.
there is no cultural guidence. All the other whales downvote material they think is overvalued or overexposed. Smooth has done it (and said so explicitly) ned has done it (remember mr yoda) dan has done it and so have most of the other small whales. Like you said, this is because there is no one who can make them follow the informal "rules".
There are two ways to look at a downvote:
As a flag, that is only to be used in a specific set of circumstnaces.
As a vote that you can use however you see fit.
The thing is, that if our "cultural norm" says we use downvotes as #1, whales absolutely can, and absolutely will ignore the informal rule just as they do right now. So the only way we can have a universal rule that applies to everyone(at least within the way the current system works) is to use votes as votes, the way they are on the blockchain.
The real issue here is that a bunch of not very good, very overpaid writers got together, complained that they didnt want to get downvoted, so the downvote got turned to a flag and got a warning in the UI.
When that didn't work, the the same group of writers threatened to retaliate against anyone who used the downvote in a way they didnt approve of, so people stopped using it.
Thats not a "community standard" thats trying to force people to vote the way you want. Changing the way the vote looks in the UI to discourage people from voting a certain way is no different from ballot tampering.
And steemit as a whole loses out because of it.
In reply to @sigmajin - with respect, I'm not talking about a cultural norm forming out of the actions of whales, I'm talking about the one forming around how the majority of Steemians would like the flags to be used. For some individuals that may shift around a bit as time goes by because the flags can be deployed whenever someone wants to deploy them.
I don't know anything about your assertions regarding writers.I thought the downvote was changed to a flag in the hope that people would not engage for negative reasons. Is there any need to let someone know you don't like their post? The flags have been used to control rewards, to punish posts or comments, to discourage material, to show dislike, to indicate plagiarism etc That's a pretty broad brush open to broad interpretation.
thanks