Privacy on Steemit
As a new user to this platform its hard not to be struck by how public everything is.
Is there a need for some level of privacy?
This platform has two main forms of public reputation; Steem Power and Reputation Score, I don't think your liquid STEEM and SBD balances need to be public too.
Steem Power
As Steem Power currently influences how payouts are given the developers feel its important that this aspect is kept public for transparency. Post payouts currently get distributed according to the votes given weighted according to Steem Power. Reputation increases as you comment, write and curate articles.
In this article from a few months back @dan comments on future plans for making STEEM and SBD balances private, but I don't see any mention of this in the 2017 roadmap.
https://steemit.com/steemit/@ntomaino/does-the-steem-community-care-about-privacy
Public Balances
At the most basic level having balances public, makes people targets for cyber attacks, blackmail, physical theft. Combined with the often extensive private info, photos, personal details that social media contains it could make Steemit a prime target for thieves.
Steem Power and savings accounts provide a level or protection in that there is a time lapse on the availability of funds but this does not stop attacks.
Having STEEM or any cyrpto currency is like having cash in your pocket (or under you mattress). People potentially could track you down and even in the worst case scenario come around to your house looking for money.
The Future
As Steemit scales and goes mainstreem, it will attract a whole new user base including the FB generation. Its not hard to imagine kids of the future posting pictures of themselves on @steepshot or using STEEM to purchase lunch at school.
Give me your lunch money...
I cannot see how it would work if vulnerable peoples balances are public. Friends and peers will see what they have and in that environment intimidation, peer pressure and worse will be a major issue.
What do you think?
Thank you for reading this. I write on Steemit about Blockchain, Cryptocurrency, Travel and lots of random topics.
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Fair concerns.. But, when it comes to the technical side, no perfect solution available yet.
It's not that we don't want it. It's that it's too hard if not impossible to be done well. There are things that have higher priorities.
I guess there are different levels of privacy.
If you want a fully private transaction Monero is probably the way to go but as a general purpose currency for most users doing everyday stuff I think even hiding balances from public view in wallets would be helpful. In my original example it would stop the kids bullying other kids at least. Maybe not he cybercriminals but it would be helpful.
Keep it public, it keeps the community honest in my opinion.
YES :)
I have no argument with the aspect of steemit that relates to an investment in the platform, i.e. Steem Power and reputation, being public but the aspect that is a currency is where I would like to see some privacy. In particular fungibility which is absent at the moment.
One last point to think about. Would you like to post your bank account statements on the internet at the moment for anyone to see? If the answer is no then I would ask why is STEEM different?
steem is will have privacy, but i personally dont care, see here https://steem.io/roadmap/confidential/
Nice article, I perfectly remember what you mention earlier about @dan's article: "In this article from a few months back @dan comments on future plans for making STEEM and SBD balances private, but I don't see any mention of this in the 2017 roadmap." I thought it was a great idea, for I strongly believe that jealousy may play a detrimental role on our platform, seen in a few significant instances already... As we say in French, "Far from the eyes, far from the heart."("Loin des yeux, loin du coeur.") The expression underlines the idea that if one doesn't see the object of desire, then it is not coveted. By keeping the information hidden from the general public, I think we could manage to keep jealousy at bay as well and, by the same token, allow for a much more sustainable social environment for all to enjoy with the prejudices of judgment relating to who has how much and so on.
So, why don't we simply hide both the STEEM and the SBD assets hidden for good. I think we would all benefit from it.
Thanks again for this article, all for one and one for all! Namaste :)
The arguments for showing STEEM and SBD are mainly for transparency but you can have STEEM on an exchange without others being able to see it on Steemit.com. I think that by showing STEEM adn SBD balances at best its misleading and at worst it provides thieves a target.
Good points to raise. Resteemed. I think privacy of money is important, as you suggest. People can target you in the type of world we live in where people have the saying that some will "kill their grandmothers for money." It's very money-centric, greed, etc. Protection is important, and so is privacy.
I actually disagree, although I look to it from a future where existing financial institutions and governments are part of networks like Steemit. In such stage: I truly believe 100% transparency is required. Note that transparency builds trust. Transparency allows social control. Social control stops many people from doing 'bad' things.
Maybe in some future we do not have to 'hide' or properties, our value, or money. In a future were Robots are creating, producing and maintaining everything for us, the concept of money may not be required anymore, since all products and services can be offered for free :)
Yeah, fair point. I'm thinking of now, but I acknowledge the potential for transparency as better.
Fair point. I like you vision but would it be possible to build this in over time. A transition so that no one is taken advantage of on the journey to your vision. Keep the money aspect private for the moment and later on when safeguards are built in or when it doesn't matter anymore the underlying infrastructure will be there to open it up.
We can do anything that we like to do as a collective (well, if we can influence STEEMIT INC and the Whales) :) So, yeh, maybe hide the amount of liquid money for the time being. SP cannot be hidden, unless SP does not represent power anymore. That said, with SP open, part of the users value is know to public.
I believe the only way a decentralised community works is with FULL transparency! Otherwise, even a decentralised community with community rules, will be quite similar to centralised communities, societies, governments. The promise of decentralised is to create a more fair community/economy with better distributed power and in the end also funds. This can only be done through 100% transparency IMHO.
I was going to comment something like this but instead I'll just say I agree! It's very important all information is public.
What does not need to be public the identity of the user, as in my case. By using an alias you can attempt to keep some degree of privacy.
That's why I oppose the verification idea here, it completely reverses that protection. IMO this is already dealt with by reputation, and if not the rep system needs to be improved. It's very easy to check for plagiarism automatically (hi @cheetah), so there's really no need for it. Start out here and prove yourself. That's what I have intended to do. 😇
I actually disagree on this point. Transparency shall be 100%, otherwise it is still easy to hide. In a small community maybe that is not a problem, but think of a world where the whole society and economies are based on networks like this, a world without centralised governments and so on. We must be able to link what an individual does 'virtual' to what that individual does outside the virtual worlds. Why? Well because the virtual worlds are part of the real world and in the scenario I'm describing even for the 100%.
Using an alias is useful for many situations, Steemit as a tool for authors to write about events, current affairs or that sort of thing can be built upon an anonymous reputation system but the plan or at least my understanding is that one day Steemit will be a multilayered social media platform with a broad user base. Using FB or Twitter as examples you see what people end up sharing in that scenario which will lead to some of the issues as I have outlined. There can still be anonymous users or users that keep aspects private but this will not be the mainstream.
I agree with you that today, or even tomorrow users can be anonymous.
But when Steemit evolves in much more than a blogging / social media service, maybe even a service taking over real community / society tasks, governmental tasks, then for sure people cannot stay anonymous anymore. For instance, when the power distribution is as it is today, and Steemit/Steem would be the main currency we use in our everyday life, than it cannot be that the few people 'in charge'(read: the few with enormous amounts of SP, the Whales) of what happens with the currency stay anonymous.
But yeh, for the time being, I do not oppose anonymity :)
I leaved Facebook because they asked me id. I'll leave Steemit if they will ask me id.
Maybe I do not understand the new world you're speaking about, sounds like electronic government, but still government. I can hide (small) transactions from government now, I hope I could in the future also. Always thought about crypto as a way for more privacy, not less.
I'm indeed talking about a new type of 'government' run in a decentralised manner such as crypto currencies. Where elections are held with blockchain approach; where laws are voted for through blochchain approach; where rules/laws are even managed through blockchain approach and AI/Robots for maybe the phsyical execution when required. In any way; if you like government or not, we can only live in a group when we have rules and having community rules we have a 'government'. Here on Steemit we also have rules, like a government has; rules how rewards are distributed, rules how SP is used and so on. So, in the situation where blockchain method is used for the stuff I'm talking about here, so decentralised government ALL and absolutely ALL information shall be open and transparent, including the mapping between accountholder and physical human body. I cannot imagine how wrong it will be when the Whales here on Steemit are deciding about asset distribution and even life and death and not know who they really are in person, ie where the hell we can find them on planet earth. As mentioned in some other comment: transparency builds trust; transparency allows social control; social control makes other to do less bad. Secrecy does exactly the opposite; creates distrust, creates fear, creates discomfort, creates wars.
As a matter of principle I like transparency from bottom to the top, meaning we should know what government/power is doing, not the opposite way.
My political vote is secret now, and for good reasons. I don't wanna live in a world where my boss can check on the blockchain how I voted, what I buy, and so on. I don't want everyone to know how much money I have and how I manage it, know if I go with prostitutes, if I do drugs, if I have been there at the time X.
I don't wanna be forced to give away my privacy, for abstract and practical reasons.
So, nothing bad voting or using electronic money using a blockchain, but no-one should be able to get the details of single users / individuals.
I cannot imagine how wrong his a Steemit whale deciding about life and death, but maybe I misunderstood : D
I like libertarian principles, but to me freedom doesn't mean no rules, it means freedom of choice, ideally freedom of choosing rules / communities, ideally without the need to move to Switzerland or open sea or Mars : ) Kinda panarchy.
State government is much more than having rules, it's force monopoly. In a dictatorial state, government means forcing everyone to obey rules written by a single man (over-simplifying). In a perfect democracy, government means forcing everyone on the decision of the relative majority.
If I don't like Steem or Bitcoin, I can choose another technology, I'm not forced to have it because of my place of birth.
Due to limitations of nested replies, I post here as a reaction to your last reply
Mostly I agree with what you are saying. And yes, Steemit is not a government, and Steem is not a prime currency for any of use at the moment, so we do not have to treat Steemit/Steem in a way I was describing before. Not yet at least :)
I do not object the anonymity for any none impacting action to society by a individual. Although I think in a centralised or decentralised society, it shall not be an issue for the public to know what for instance the assets are that individual has. The world (ie the mass) may not be ready to handle this in a good way, and there are always individuals who will try to miss-use such information, but to me such information shall be public since this can avoid miss-use of such relative power an individual has when such information is not know in public.
Example: It is for good reasons that a company is registered in such a way that potential business partners, prospects and public can verify if the company is legit (through the Chamber of Commerce), and if the individual who claims he/she is allowed to sign contracts for that company is legit as well (Chamber of Commerce).
Example: It is for good reasons why C-level salaries are public in most western world countries, since the shareholders and public deserves to know if these powerful people are not only filling their own pockets. And when they do, they can be questioned regarding their actions.
Example: It is for good reasons that when an individual buys a house, this is registered in public records. Especially when that individual need a mortgage, a bank will always check this. If not a bank, but some blockchain based asset recording system, somehow this needs to be verifiable by general public as well; And is absolutely required when the house owner is selling it for the prospect buyer to be able to verify.
Agree. Now here is the point I tried to make. Lets assume we implement decentralised government using blockchain technology for voting on laws and such as well as decisions on how much currency we will produce per day/week/year (the decentralised implementation of a central bank) and each human person / individual has an equal vote power. We want to make sure that the system is not abused, which requires the system to know that an individual is only voting one time instead of opening 100 accounts under different names and vote 100 times. In my view, for these type of voting / democracy, the identity should be public, or at least verifiable by something. Maybe some system can be implemented which actually verifies an anonymous user without the identity of the individual being public, kind of SteemVerify. Such system with DB with individual identity mapping with the individuals anonymous account ID's must somehow be 100% trusted; I'm not sure how this can be arranged to be honest, since it'll be some central entity without public records, so we have to trust that entity and all the people working for it, for 100%. I'm not sure if we can ever 100% trust such entity though.
Verifiable: sure, it has to be 1 person 1 vote. It's the blockchain/autority that have to verify your unique id or something before voting.
Public: no, in every democracy you can keep your vote secret.
I think you can use both electronic signatures and physical presence / data to verify yourself without making your vote public. If this isn't possible, the good old id and X on a piece of paper is better.
A company is not an individual, it's ok to have public data on assets and so on. Especially when business is powerful.
I don't agree, C-level salaries should be known only to shareholders / property. That's why a politician salary has to be be public to everyone: the people are the shareholders (they're paying taxes).
I a totally private company, I don't wanna know how much they're paying managers: it's their money.
We could have some proof of owning (a electronic key or something) without it being public. If I want, I give the proof of owning to the bank which can verify it on the blockchain.
Good points for discussion. Resteemed
Thanks for the resteem.
Transparency transparency transparency. That's the only way I can say it short of @edje's articulation (thank you)
Transparency equals and builds trust, censorship and secrecy builds and feeds fear and greed (check current US deep state political power machine for extreme insidious example, but I digress...)
Thanks for raising this fundamental issue @eroche
All I am saying is there will be a cost to this level of transparency and its important to explore the balance between what is private and what is and should be public.
yes - fare enough - it's definitely an essential conversation to explore
as you mentioned in the comments, this platform is also for people who don't like/want or can't(because what they offer will reveal their identity) be anonymous, as I said earlier in one of my posts steemit is dealing with money(sometimes big numbers) which requires it to address some issues like privacy of accounts(as you mentioned) or even inheritance(what happens to the account and the money/time spent on that account?!)
these are some of the issues that need to be addressed with high priority
You raise some good points @meysam. Inheritance in particular, just think of the fighting that will ensue over assets when its all there for anyone to see and access.
Perhaps we could have an option for more privacy?
Im not sure if everyone likes the idea of more privacy, or maybe they don't see the worth in having more privacy, but Im sure some do. By making it optional, we can satisfy both parties.
Privacy is coming, it's just a question of time. I assume devs have to first upgrade the back-end architecture before any efficient privacy feature can be implemented. I wrote about this yesterday: Why we don't have privacy features yet?
Thanks @samupaha.
Excellent post and its interesting to get the context and history of the evolution of the current thinking.