Steemit: A Social Platform Or A Bot Gaming System?

in #steemit6 years ago (edited)

"When the tide goes out, you find out who was swimming naked"



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One thing I am very happy about is the drop in the price of steem. The reason I am happy about it is because it wakes people up. When people make more money than they expected, many tend to get lazy, greedy, or flippant with it.

"Steem prices screem higher, for at least a short time."


As the price of STEEM rose dramatically, some interesting dynamics occurred. The early investors and users found themselves sitting on a virtual cash machine, at least for a few months!

steem price chart.JPG

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Notice how much time the price of STEEM has traded between $0.00 and $2.00.... If you step back and look at the graph above, you will see that roughly 90% of the time has been spent at this level (illustrated in the red box).

"Bots bots everywhere, and not a human in sight!"




The spike in price for a few months did however lead to all kinds of cool and not so cool systems to be built. And as many are well aware, the bots appear to have taken over. We have bots for almost everything now. We greet the newbies with bots. We sell our votes to bots. We buy our votes from bots. We even curate with bots.

"What is Steemit?"


Many people have come and gone in the short time that I have been here (that's called "churn"). And the humans that I talk to on a regular basis seem to get frustrated at the lack of attention they get. They work for hours to make a quality post and format it properly, and then they post it and are lucky to make $1. They then wonder, why should I spend my time making a good post and engaging with others when I can just use the bots to multiply my money!

So this raises the question, "what is steemit?". What do the whales want? What is the answer by the people that control the platform, the witnesses?

"Are we a social network or are we a bot gaming system?"


I would say most of the lower level newbies and minnows come here with the idea that steemit is a social network. But within a few months, those that survive realize that the real way to make money here is to figure out how to "game" the bots. I am no different. Sure I do my best to make good posts and "engage" others, but honestly I make far more from finding the loopholes in the system and "gaming" the bots.

What do you want me to do?

Since you (the witnesses and whales) get to decide what this place is, what do you suggest we focus on in order to build the long term value of the platform? Where do you want us to spend our time and efforts?

Am I worth more to you helping to build up our communities like @newbieresteemday @greetersguild @friendsofgondor @newbiegames or would you rather I focus my attention on finding the flaws in the system and gaming the bots?

Essentially what do you want people to think of when they say "I'm on steemit"... Are we a social network or are we a bot gaming system?

"Witnesses and whales, you reap what you sow!"




I said in the beginning that I'm happy the price came down. Because when the tide goes out, you do find out who has been swimming naked.

When people make more money than they expected, many tend to get lazy, greedy, or flippant with it.

This is exactly what happened to many early adopters that have found themselves very flush with cash. The price rise led to laziness, greediness, and some just downright tossing the money around with no rhyme or reason. The consequences of these actions are what has shaped the system.

Face it, if the witnesses and whales continue to use their power to reward bot gaming activities at the expense of supporting community building networks like @curie @steemcommunities @qurator or even smaller ones like @helpie @asapers and hundreds of others too, then it will achieve the results that have been incentivized. If you are happy with the "churn" of people that come and go, and don't want to be a social network; then by all means continue on the path you are on. A bot gaming system we will be!

Just remember people aren't stupid for long... They learn and adapt at amazing speed.

"Two first steps for witnesses and whales if you want to fix the system."


If the witnesses and whales want to be a social networking platform, they could fund and support any of the communities that have largely been ignored. You could of course ask me which are the good ones and I would tell you, but there is an easier way. Asher @abh12345 runs reports on curation and engagement, its called Asher's League of Excellence. He lists the top 300 "engagers" in that league every week. Those are the people you should want to support. If they are engaging, then they are the future influencers. And the influencers are who build any network out.

The second step that should be taken is to put the ACTUAL facts in the bot replies. Instead of telling people "congratulations you were just upvoted x%" which seems really good to many people but is useless and misleading, you should instead say "you received an upvote and the loss (or gain) to you at the current steem price of $y was x%". Since 15 of the top 20 witnesses also own bots, then this small step of truth and honesty will show that you care about the "consumer" and that you are interested in more than your own profits. The elimination of this misleading information will lead many to stop using the bots, causing a drop in demand, thus many of the bad bots will go away. We would be left with a healthier and more straight-forward system that would require less investigation and leave more time for social interactions too!

"Lets Talk Witnesses is coming soon to give the people access to the witnesses."


lets talk witnesses2.jpg

We at @newbieresteemday are happy to be presenting a series of witness interviews in the very near future. We have already lined up witnesses like @yabapmatt @steemcommunity @qurator and we have many more in the queue. We have a list of questions for each witness to answer, but the one I will want to ask most is this:

"What is Steemit, A Social Platform Or A Bot Gaming System?"

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Greetings man
Excellent post I was here recently and a few days ago I invested personal money here and improved my sp. I do not know how it works with bots, but for now, I only think of healing the posts that I think are good ideas and creating my posts (which I think have good content for readers because they are done with much study and affection) and give upvote in them and in some of my comments that I think have been well done. I suppose that is not the best strategy to gain more sbd and sp, however, would be a means between helping me and helping others.

I imagine that anyone who has put together the sps and sbds from 2016 to 2017 when the sbd hit the price of plus or minus $ 13 at the end of December, has come out of steemit if you have done power down with a well-filled bank account.

What do you think I said?
I would like your opinion on my strategy !!

Thank you and good morning!!!!

thank you for your comment and for the nice things you said about my post. As to your strategy, that is up to you. I personally think that everyone can do what they think is best. I think you might irritate some authors (not me), if you vote your own comment to the top of the thread and don't upvote the post. Some would call that thread high-jacking... Like I said, I don't mind as I think everyone can do as they wish. And I am not here for the money, so upvoting my post is certainly not necessary.

And yes quite a few people made a bundle during 2016 and 2017... I imagine most made quite a bundle!

Well done keeping the cool Dave. I also don't care too much about it, but I don't think it is a viable long-term strategy. So @julisavio, unless you have a very important point to make it can backlash upvoting your own comment. So that would be my advice. I know curation rewards sux currently, but you will hopefully gain more in the long run by making awesome comments and only upvoting the author's post.

An excellent post Dave, resteemed.

I doubt you'll get much response from whales and witnesses, mainly because the majority are involved in the cash machine / laziness you discuss above.

The bots are here to stay I'm afraid, they make the owners/delegators too much money to give up.

There could be space in the market for more 'ethical' bots though, we shall see...

Thank you very much @abh12345! I see that at least one witness @steemcommunity (@paulag upvoted too) isn't afraid to "go on the record" on this issue. So even though I only got one witness/whale to weigh in, at least I know one of my 30 for sure! ;)

I think the bots will stay in some form, I agree. But the good thing is the longer they stay as they are, the lower the steem price will have to drop to reset the imbalance. Its the basic laws of nature, and frankly I love to hear their squeals when it drops as that means they are waking up!

I think there needs to be a major marketing campaign to talk about the paid upvotes and who is getting what from where.... and the policies that are agreed upon to keep minnows suppressed and keep major stakeholders close to the same % influence they currently have.

I think people would be surprised to know that @hajein is not in the top 10 earners when we account for incoming wallet transactions, curation rewards and alt accounts.


Why do people get so up in arms about @hajein taking a share of the reward pool when we have some unethical/dishonest bot owners pulling in more daily to their wallets from their scams? <-- these people feed off the newbies promising them more views and followers while not even looking at the post they upvote at a loss to the person buying the vote ... and then there are all the spam bots that spam your wall, with a dishonest representation, if they upvote you...

I call them scams because they are advertised as being 100% upvote auctions; but in reality you get a max fixed return that is lower than advertised.

My hope is maybe if we talk about these upvote scams and the owners, similar to what the people did to @haejin, then the delegators will stop loaning their infleunce to these unethical services and instead think about the long term health of the platform over short term monetary gains from a scam.

interesting point of view @royaleagle! :)

more like bot "cash cow".. a lot of posts where bots upvote don't score have enough views to warrant the rewards.

If you go by a standard $1 per 1k or 2k views (and that's for viewers served ads in wealthy nations), then 0 people on steemit could possibly have that reach simply because there aren't enough people in all of steemit. Although there have been a few posts that have gathered attention from the outside world, which is what people should really be aiming for.

I agree with you @charitybot... The biggest issue I see is the turnover for that to happen... Most people are consumers, but they have to see a place for them too in this ecosystem. Right now the attention is barely on the producers, the consumers have nobodies attention. (for now) ;)

yes I agree with you @dillagr! I see it all the time.

The biggest downside to Steemit is bots. Upvote bits, downvote bits etc etc. It’s claimed that the best content should rise to the top but that is never going to happen with bots auto voting all the time.

unless 1) the rules change or 2) the investors change ... But without one of those 2, I agree with you!

You read my mind!

haha... very very cool... Can I use that pic? I love it!

Go for it :)

Well @davemccoy, you raise many excellent points, including the primary What IS Steemit? question.

The sad thing is that even though this is — by most standards — a well-read and "successful" post, there is essentially a near complete absence of whales and witnesses from the 160+ comments below (well "above," when I post this). And sometimes "silence" makes a bold statement, as well.

In my limited wee minnow (more like a tiny bit of "cat fluff"...) travels I have come across more than a few well-spoken content creators who have opined — in different ways — that "Steemit is an awesome place for developers and lousy place for social content."

The sketchy history of Steemit suggests this was largely created BY developers with the "social bit" largely being an afterthought or "window dressing." Very little more. Consider this: It's 2018 and we are sitting here with a circa HTML 4.0 looking interface with some creators even hard coding their posts in the age of drag-and-drop widgets. Hello? This is a SOCIAL platform... and yet without basics like photo albums, the ability to "group" followers, no messaging, etc., etc. which speaks VOLUMES about "what's considered important" about Steemit.

Meanwhile, all the talk from STINC is about "SMTs this, and SMTs that, and SMTs here and SMTs there." All of which — pretty much — amounts to more pandering to developers.

Which brings us back to your question: "A Bot Gaming System," in the sense that this is yet another "feature" relevant to developers not to the general social media user... but I should add that the Bots are just a small segment of a greater underlying issue.

It all gets very complex: part of the problem we face is that we have a bunch of people running the asylum who suddenly ended up with (the equivalent of) "$2 million in the bank" thanks to being early adopters, where before they were struggling techs in a cube farm. Expecting them to know what "investing" is — including such concepts as "preservation of capital" — is probably folly. And because much of this was "instant wealth," there's that easy come, easy go attitude that would gravitate someone towards "Geez, I can make a LOT of money with bots!" rather than examining something like "How can I turn my $2M windfall into $20M in the next 10 years?"

Seems to me that's a large part of the struggle around here. Bots are simply a superficial manifestation of that.

Personally? I just want to create enjoyable content with some "value" to people, and enjoy the social interaction.

But what do I know? I'm just a little black cat...

=^..^=

very good analysis! I'm very impressed for sure! That is both insightful and enjoyable to read @curatorcat. I don't know your background, but I can tell you have some serious analytical skills and the understanding of how things work. I do agree the bots are a manifestation of the bigger issues, and I think you hit the nail on the head about the early adopters. That is why I think we are destined for a big "reset", because in my experience that is how the system will purge the excesses. I was talking with a friend of mine that go in early and he was telling me that he could buy all the steem he wanted at $0.19... ps... I would love that as we would be able to get some leverage here if we could buy in that cheap!

Its nice meeting you and glad you are entering the Play 4 a Newbie Challenge too... I look forward to being your teammate in the future!

Best answer so far. Very well articulated and hit on some key points I don’t see elucidated clearly often enough 💯🌹❣️

@davemccoy, I think bots are still required at the moment as we still do not have enough traffic, views and votes within the ecosystem. Steem is an economy based on participation, I think we basically have a lack of that. And when humans are not enough to generate the level of participation, bots take over.

I think this is all temporary. When we reach a stage where we have enough human participations, bots will eventually lose their effectiveness. By then, we can truly see who are swimming naked. The hivemind update will bring communities function and we can all organize ourselves into proper groups instead of using tags and external services like discord. I hope that will lead to more participations from humans.

that is an interesting theory @culgin

I think bots are still required at the moment as we still do not have enough traffic, views and votes within the ecosystem. Steem is an economy based on participation, I think we basically have a lack of that. And when humans are not enough to generate the level of participation, bots take over.

I can understand to a degree, but I also think that the people with power will see one day that their "power" is better spent in developing people and not increasing their slice of the pie. If the people were supported better by all the various groups, "churn" would slow down and they would get a much higher degree of participation.

I definitely agree with you that things will change that will lead to more human participation. Its just a matter of the path we take to get there! ;)

Okay, so for a while there, I was thinking you were ready to succumb to the bots, which was very unrallier like. :)

This post has only been up for seven minutes, but it's rare that I get in first on any post, let alone yours, so here goes:

I hope you get a response from many of the witnesses, including the bot owners.

My opinion is, you and me and everyone else who believes in this STEEM ecosystem and community, should stay the course. We should hold the line and keep holding the line.

The only way this place improves is if we're able to gather enough people to our side to make a difference. We don't need everyone, we don't even need a majority. All we need is 5-10% of the active users on the platform who have been around a while, 2-6 months or so, and who are willing to stand toe to toe and hand in hand against the tide.

People stop using the bots, revenue goes down, regardless of the STEEM price.

People ignore the trending page, the bot users get their 15 seconds of fame and their fat bot bill.

People continue to engage through posting, commenting and human curation, the number of garbage posts will go down and the amount of the rewards will go up.

The course is true. The course is life. The course is the way.

Stay the course. Hold the line.

haha I had you worried huh? lol

I agree (as usual) with most everything you say Glenn. I think it is a matter of "holding the line" as well... I am with you and will stay the course for sure! And I agree that over time we can be a part of something special! :)

ps... yes you were fast! I held off commenting to give everyone time to state their opinions and others to read everyone's thoughts... but I saw your comment quickly and was happy to see you and I still think alike on this one! ;)

I think someone actually beat me in but I was the only one here when I was writing my comment. It just took longer to finish. :)

I think you and others are already a part of some grand and purposeful. It's just keeping that going and expanding it. Between what you're doing with the newbies and what Asher is doing with his leagues, and what others are doing, Steemit will be righted. Hopefully, we'll all be around to see that, too, since it's a long haul uphill battle. :)

I knew you were first lol...

And I agree with you that we are actually a relatively small group but making great progress in networking with each other. Its really not about the groups themselves, its the connections and friendships we are making.

ie my friends and your friends are each others' friends one day as we work together and build that trust and respect necessary to really have impact. I see many of the same people every day and the cool thing is we have expanded the group by being inclusive to all.. This place is much smaller than people realize (in terms of true engagement!)

Absolutely, @glenalbrethsen. Count me in.

Those bots undermine Steemit's potential to do that rare thing - inspire and drive social impact for millions while creating financial value for all involved at the same time.

Enough of us holding the course, and change will happen.

I'm wondering, if it would be a good idea to have this as a quasi-community of some sort?

It might be a good idea. That community might already exist for all I know. I wouldn't be surprised.

Sad thing about the bots is, many of them were created to help people as a workaround. So the intention was good, just not the solution.

And since the solution is based on a long term outlook, we need to continually remind ourselves and others, that's what it is. Long term. It's not a quick solve.

bowing to way above me at 3rd place @glenalbrethsen

  • OK now I can reply...
    • Trending page
      Do people still look at that???
      I check it about once a day to see if there is any real steemit news.

I'm afraid the new folks do, and since there's an ongoing supply of them on a minute by minute basis, and as far as I know, no immediate redirection to anything else, that's where they end up, because that's where people go to look for things everywhere else.

Then, when they get there and see what's there, if they don't immediately equate it to trash, they think that's what passes for good content around here. So, the cycle continues to perpetuate until someone can get a hold of them that's not just inclined to flag them into oblivion because they didn't bother to read the Steemit FAQ or etiquette pages.

I know there are greeter guilds and such working to orient people, so I'm certainly not knocking them. I don't know enough to know what they're doing, but I'm sure they've got more than enough to handle, especially if they're trying to doing anything else on their own accounts.

True. True indeed.

  • I did when I started. I had no clue what I was doing. I would also upvote anything that had a huge payout, thinking, man if I get a cut of that... woohoo... SMH ::rolling eyes::
    • Then I started searching for guides and such and those were a great help!
      • I think maybe it was @earthnation's guide that explained the most to me...
  • In a time, long, long, long ago... (I'm on day 60) haha

BTW you do realize you get a bonus for for spelling out the emojis right?
::rolling eyes:: = 2 words
not sure if they even count 🙄 as a word
wait wait unread that part... you already have beat me 5 times better! haha

Actually, spelling them out might count, because Asher isn't counting words, he's counting characters, which could include (this I'm not sure of) spaces, returns, emojis (or their alphanumerics), punctuation and formatting styles, like bullets.

Don't quote me on that. It really depends on how that all gets filtered, but a character is a different animal than a word.

Aha! yes, I see that now...

haha... yes he is above me too! And I see he is picking up steam too :)

is there a reputation requirement or could infinite bots proxy their vote? I can't find out about this anywhere and I think it's insanely important to address that or fix the loophole it creates. Also is there any tool to see who is getting their proxies from and who is sending out proxies? Not accusing anyone, but if that is the case anyone who is a witness could have paid to be one. Thinking like, if you spent maybe 20k on bots and got like 12-15k bots out of it and proxied their vote and then vote for yourself as a witness. Out of the almost 1 million users that is a 1.5% vote that puts you at 80 in the top 100 witnesses. Pretty important for fact checking! That is a lot of money, but to someone wealthy they could become a witness overnight using bid bots for reputation boosting and then bots for witness voting.

I'm sure you could track down all this info... You might want to see what others have pulled from the data... And to a degree I think for sure there are some of these happening, that is how we got haejin to be unstoppable in the first place. I don't know enough of the intricate details to really comment on "how" they do it. But in my mind it is very clear that the bigger players have their money in the bots (and they are earning a pretty penny from it too). If you find out, please let me know... I will be happy to see that info!

Your post is so encouraging most especially to us new entrants. Thanks alot for this .

Thank you for the comment and for reading. I try to be balanced and explain what I see! I have been here every day since Dec when I joined, so obviously there are things I like. But of course there are things I don't too... That's why I think education is important to set the right expectations! :)

If you have any questions, feel free to ask any time! :)

That scares me at any time a rich person can buy like 300k of bots and vote in like 30 witnesses or their own accounts and take over the blockchain no?

I read through your post, loved it, then I read through the comments, and it seems as though everyone is in agreement. There is however one thing missing...the bot owners responding. I hope it happens here Dave, but I won't be holding my breath:)

Please don't hold your breath! :D

hahaha no worries Ash!

thank you my Queen! And yes... we only have one witness in the comments ... guess who?

hint: he just told you to not hold your breath below! :D

haha Dave...throw it in my face why don'tcha ;) I noticed @abh12345 graciously appear :)

awww I wasn't throwing it in your face, I wouldn't be so cruel.. remember I am a nice guy :) (or was it a bad boy, I forget) ... lol

I hope you are have a great evening! :)

hahaha Dave I was just messin' with you! Bad Boy Mccoy can't see a joke when it's right in front of his badass face lol

haha... you're back... yippee!!! Now that's more like it, berating me and others again... that's the farmgirl I know ;) :P

Damn straight! Don't forget it buddy ;)

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