RE: Regarding Transisto and Flagging
Your points about the stated rationale for the flags are well made and well taken. However, I'd like to respectfully discuss this comment:
"I don't think flagging should disappear or that it should somehow change functionally."
Unfortunately, as long as the diametrically opposite actions of adding value to a post and removing value from a post are poorly described semantically, this kind of problem will continue to occur.
IMHO, these behaviors should be described symmetrically, using English words that are likewise precisely opposite in meaning--i.e., upvote v downvote.
If the platform needs "flags," there should be a separate channel for that. A "flag" means that something is abusive, gaming, or otherwise a direct attack on the platform (hacking or theft) or on the poster (ad-hominem).
Furthermore, it isn't really crystal clear to me why we really need the downvote function, but I will confess that I am not really knowledgable enough in the detailed workings of the financial side to meaningfully make a case for that.
Thanks for a great article!
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To better understand why downvoting is necessary I recommend to read this post. One paragraph in particular is very enlightening:
Thank you very much for the quote and reference. I will read that post and, hopefully, arrive at a better understanding.
I really appreciate your stepping in and offering me this very relevant information! :)
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Actually, 'laws of human nature' or game theory, is just a political tool and should not have a place in here (it was used to take control away from the governments and give it to the corporations so that they police themselves, for example, if you design a car with faulty brakes, the government cannot do anything, game theory says the corporation will recall the cars and fix them because it pays them to do so). We've all seen the results of those theories, but, more important, I thought that Steemit was based on the free market.
In other words, I write a poem, a story or paint a picture. anarcho thinks it is the best thing since sliced bread and pays me $200. Whatever else anyone else thinks of my talent, to anarcho it is worth $200 and nobody else has the right to impose his own opinion on us by taking away most of that money. In my view, not only is he trampling on my rights and the rights of anarcho to determine according to his tastes what the market value of my work is, he is also stealing the funds from both of us, for after all, he may claim that the money is not mine until the week is up, but he cannot make the same claim vis-a-vie anarcho. To him it will also feel as if his money was stolen, and so it will be so.
I am against flagging for any reason apart from controlling criminal behaviour, the rest of the time, market forces should be left to impose the conditions. That is fair; you don't like my work, then don't upvote me; that happens often enough, I'll realise I am wasting my time and move on, without anyone having to abuse me or harm my sense of dignity.
The moment it is used for personal users to impose an opinion, then I consider that act as becoming, itself, criminal behaviour and demeans what Steemit was meant to become.
Hello, @arthur.grafo,
I'm responding only briefly, as I don't think you meant to address your reply to me, but I'm the one it got directed to...
FYI, Steemit users do not pay one another. They have an influence on a reward pool, which is not the same thing. Some of the details of how that works are in the Steemit White Paper.
You may wish to re-post your reply under the main article, or under @onthewayout's remarks, as he is the one who mentioned "game theory?"
Thanks, I was not really addressing anyone in particular, just trying to contribute to the discussion.
As for the reward pool; you are right, I was trying to make my point by exaggerating the amount. A question: Does my position as a steemit member provide me, as a benefit, wih the right to a tiny share of the pool, for me to dispose of as I wish? Does that not, in a sense, mean that those few cents are mine, so that I can benefit by allocating them to someone? (my benefit might be that the post earns enough for me to get a fraction of a cent, or my benefit could be in the social sphere, my upvoting indicating friendliness and a wish to reward that person?
By someone taking the money, they are affecting what I could earn, plus I no longer have the satisfaction of feeling I did a good deed (if I have none left, then I really can't).
It may sound like I'm splitting hairs and making points that are not of high value (money-wise etc), but questions of right and wrong are meant to be independant of such considerations.
Anyway, whatever I say, I know I cannot make a difference, but it was nice trying. Thanks for replying to my previous comment.
Hi again,
Thanks for clarifying.
Actually, the Steemit White Paper explicitly states that is not the case. According to the White Paper:
I'm glad you brought this up, as I am still figuring out and learning how this ingenious system actually works.
A down vote does not affect the outcome of your vote. You can still feel good because without your vote, the result would have been even less for whomever you voted for.
At last an explanation I can understand! Thank you.
I know that I intend concentrating on doing what I love, writing and visiting other artists to encourage and even help where I can. But I also know myself. I am passionate about not standing by while someone gets bullied. As a child I had a few very sickly years, with one stretch of nine months in hospital, and I wear glasses (funny, but in those days, kids who wore glasses were far less in number than now), so it also made me good material for bullies to pick on me.
I got bullied to an extreme, once, with three kids holding me down while their leader whipped my back until I was bleeding.
My grandfather sat me down and told me, even if they are much stronger, hit back. Even if they still beat you up, you'll then have the satisfaction of knowing you hit him - at least once.
He did not know what a monster he was creating. I fought back and nobody bullied me again. But my now aroused empathy forced me to help when I see someone being bullied. This does not only apply to childhood. People get bullied at work, by their neighbours, and so on.
I saw a Nigerian who is fairly new at Steemit, all his posts are original. he wrote (I live in Africa, but am of Greek origin) a lovely post about how to grow enough food to feed your family on a tiny piece of land. This is very common in Africa and the swahili word for this kind of farm is 'shamba'.
I was delighted by his effort and upvoted and followed him. He thanked me, but when I returned to his site, I found he had been flagged to death.
What made it worse, was that there was a long list of people in the comments section complaining about him flagging them without reason.
It did not need a genius to work out that someone has managed to 'beat the system' and using his name flagged the others.
Why am I telling you this? Because I see an extremely disturbing trend. The person who did it, according to those who were able to investigate what happened, was someone called jesta. Guess what! He is #1 of the Witnesses, so I was told to forget it, he can't be touched.
Then I had someone called berniesanders attack someone, badly flagging him because he presented an interview he had with the doctor who provided the medical information for the movie VAXX. He justified what he did by saying he will flag anyone to zero who is anti-vaccine!! Again I learnt that he is one of the untouchables. He has a slavish following and one of them threatened to flag me to nothing because I had dared criticise his hero. He has not done so yet...but who knows.
Then, now, the flagging that prompted this post - and again it is someone high up, an untouchable!
This gives me the feeling that something has seriously gone wrong in Steemit, despite the original good intentions. When things like this start to happen, they just get worse. In Greek we say, the fish begins to stink from the head. In South Africa, we say, if our president can steal and cheat, why shouldn't I?
Will there be many Steemians who feel the same way? If yes, how can we stop it before it destroys the community?
If a way is to be found, then it must be dealt with immediately. I'm just sorry (and disturbed) to not find a way available for us to downvote a Witness (the president of the US can be impeached, but not a Witness?)
Hi Arthur,
I'm very sympathetic with your views about bullies. I understand completely.
I also find it abhorrent that there are wealthy Steemians who use their power to trash subject matter with which they disagree.
I don't know what the answer is, or whether or not their is an answer. For the moment, I will simply continue to support the people I see doing good work here, and encourage others to do the same.
I would like to see Steemit succeed in the long run, and I sincerely hope that those who implement changes gain the necessary wisdom and insight to make that happen.
Oh I agree with that comment wholeheartedly. If it's going to function as a balance to upvotes (which it currently does), then it should be called downvoting. As far as why we really need it, look no further than the actual spam that gets nuked daily. I think it serves a healthy function, but there needs to be some established standards that the community can rally around when someone abuses that function. This is one such case.
I've seen what I consider to be better proposals for dealing with the proliferation of spam... from @mattclarke in particular, as I recall, but there may be others.
I think one of the best would be make commenting a privilege earned by gaining reputation. A true "flag" would then affect reputation only, closing the door on spam.
In any case, it's pretty clear that there's work to be done! ;)
Communities is going to solve a lot of things.
Oooh, I like that idea. Make reputation actually mean something significant besides being an indicator of status.
I think upvotes are called upvotes for a reason and flags are called flags for a reason. They are not the same by design. Upvotes allocate reward and flags are to be used with caution to take rewards away from posts that are abuse. Anytime a flag is used to counter something that is not abuse, I view the act of flagging as abuse itself.
Hi Dave,
I fear that in this instance you are wrong.
The Steemit White Paper itself tells a different story. They are the same, by design. At least they are said to be.
In fact, the word "Flag" is found nowhere within the WhitePaper. Search as you will you'll only find "votes," either up or down.
However, I have heard it said that down votes affect reputation more strongly than up votes. I am having a great deal of difficulty finding accurate documentation about that, but I'll keep trying from time to time.
The word "flag" has a very negative connotation, and perhaps for that reason alone the user interface should be modified to show up and down votes instead.
Thanks for the correction then, it will help me have my facts straight in the future.
I would certainly advocate for this to be the way we view them though.
I wonder if changing the downvote to a flag was indeed a conscious decision and I wonder what's in the code base, not just on the most popular interface.
While I haven't examined the code myself, I have read from several who have that the code treats up and down votes symmetrically and does not mention "flags."
However, my confusion remains as far as the exact way reputation works in the latest fork of the system. I would love to know if that is truly symmetrical or not. Much of the discussion I've seen strongly implies that down-votes have a stronger impact on reputation than up-votes.
I am adding another comment, because I would like to mention that I think that a number of people (after deducting those who are here only for the money) find enjoyment in discovering such a surprising plethora of new talent.
Yes, I enjoy posting and being upvoted, but just as much, I find myself delighted by the discovery of a new to me talent and if I see he or she is young and struggling, Steemit offers me something miraculous: Without having to take out of my small out-of-steemit income money for upvoting, I have the ability to help thanks to the brilliant system devised here.
Downvoting or flagging - it kills that (and without reason for it existing beyond preventing crimes).
I agree. I have met friends here that I value very highly, no matter what becomes of Steemit. I have also had some very enjoyable and educational reading.