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RE: HF20 Update: Operations Stable

in #steem3 years ago

This is a most excellent post by the Steemit team. Focus upon the blockchain while working with the witnesses....that is an ideal situation in my opinion.

I commend everyone for opening up the discussion about how to best strike a balance between giving low SP accounts usage while deterring spammers. It is a very difficult task to pull off and it will take all of us collectively trying to determine what is best.

It was a tough week but there is no reason for anyone to be discouraged. This is something all blockchains are going to have to approach. The bottom line is networks cost money to run and this is no different. Therefore, how are those costs covered without directly charging?

People who leave STEEM believing there are other "free" networks out there are in for a rude awakening. There is no such thing as a free network.

Just ask all those who get to use Facebook for "free".

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I agree wholeheartedly, and thank you for providing a fresh, organic, COMMUNITY UPVOTED comment, not like the ones above yours.

I agree with you, unlike the nay sayers who have no clue about software development. (never mind some of their claimed 20-years-techincal-expertise who claim you can see a 8mbps twitch stream on a 56k modem, true story) The developers involved (NOT JUST STINC, EVERYONE) has done an admirable job this week, things are never expected to go wrong, and when they do, that is the measure of the workmanship, how you handle crisis.

Why pay to get your comment moved to the top in a an announcement thread? showboating.

If what you have to say isn't valuable, then you have to spend (some times charity money) on it to get it noticed, so that you feel like you're 'contributing'.

At this point I would like to call out the posers.

If your "contributions" isn't on github in the form of PR's you're not really contributing.

Throwing stones at those who do is frankly ignorant behavior.

Define "showboating" - and also, produce proof of your allegations...

I define showboating as basically being a hypocrite...

Observe your counterargument to yourself:

https://steemit.com/steem-promo/@lanmower/two-in-the-pink-one-in-the-stinc

Compared to the grandstanding above, it smells a lot like "throwing stones" and "ignorant behavior" to me...

Never seen you in github by this name. Funny, I'm on a few threads over there in the PRs and Issues areas. Even got one of the initiatives it took a year of campaigning for passed and into condenser, so you could more easily participate in a more democratic form of governance here than was previously possible. It took a year of broadcasting on the topic, and finally proof of my allegations by another witness who documented his pass through the barriers previously set, and then the calling on of a half dozen more to force the gatekeepers to acquiesce but the win was ours that day.

What did you do again? Oh yeah, apparently not very much of interest to anyone, for a year's worth of time "served"

Boom! Headshot. I tried to reason w/ that fella a while back. You commented on that thread as well. I'd surmise he is fishing for upvotes as his statement is rather inconsistent with the objective most reasonable Steemians share against the onslaught of spam that we at @steemflagrewards fight on the daily. Would be nice if @ned gave us a delegation so we would have the means to pay our mods and contributors but I digress.

The point I am trying to make is @lanmower is commenting positive about the update which effectively hinders spammers while he will object to the flagging of same spammers which is quite peculiar. Hopefully, he takes your message to heart and evaluates his self.

Perhaps, we can all work together to make this blockchain better, be it through flags, through Pull Requests, and discussions just like this. But I'm not holding my breath about this one.

Posted using Partiko Android

This little kid has been nothing but a troll since he showed up sometime this past summer, trolling around various discords I mod, mostly being a know nothing know it all punk. I fed him loads of bullshit and let him think he was winning so he would go away back then but it was time to school him and put him down for a nap. It's amusing when some barely out of highschool kid tries to troll someone nearly three times their age, it won't end well for them.

@sircork, honestly, you could stand to learn more than you could stand to teach.

But that's none of my business, your eyes are closed while your mouth is open, and that is your issue not mine.

Arguing with cork is like arguing with a 5 year old.

You have to keep your sentences short.

And allow enough white space for his brain to catch up.

@steemflagrewards accomplishes nothing more than breeding busybodies in my opinion, and I should be free to express that, but you feel like telling people they're not free to state plainly what they perceive is ok, which I respect, that doesn't mean I'm going to let you bully me into silence.

I understand that you are proud of your project, I am proud of your project too, its a good display of organizational talent and while I haven't seen the code it seems to work.

Do I respect it influencing peoples freedom of speech? nope.

I feel like I am free to say that, which I do. You're welcome to different opinion, that's none of my business.

What you're doing right here, is childish. But that's ok, we're all learning too and I respect the time you require to learn from your own experiences.

Cheers @anthonyadavisii I can't imagine how you think that you playing god over who gets flagged, is somehow better than blockchain patches but is I have always advocated passive fixes to the underlying problem rather than users fighting each other I am an automation designer so to me the solution is obvious and what the patch is about is a direct exploration at an automatic spam fighting solution.

Policing bloggers is a terrible idea in my opinion, but that's my opionion, and I'm free to advocate it, the fact that you attack me over it shows that you couldn't care less about the things I hold dear, like freedom, which is fine, you too will learn from being here and dealing with people who care about the important things you ignore, and I will learn too from people who deal with the important things I ignore.

Our lord and saviour, Dan the Man, created something called proof-of-stake. Whereby everyone on the blockchain has a stake in it. Whether it be borrowed stake or invested stake doesnt matter. What does matter is what people choose to use their stake for. I use mine to distribute wealth, and to troll occasionally. You use yours to build automation systems for communities, and to troll occasionally. @steemflagrewards uses their stake to apply censorship to the blockchain, and to troll occasionally.

Only one of us are trying to negate the ability of other stake holders to do their thing.

You guessed it.

It's @steemflagrewards !!!

Thanks for taking the time to formulate a thoughtful response, @lanmower. However, I believe one of your underlying premises is flawed and I will explain why.

You assert that the issue is freedom of speech and, in order to help you out, I would like you to consider one question.

How often do you see us flagging content that has declined rewards?

I think you could figure what I'm getting at and believe this is where your argument begins to unravel. I think it is important you come to terms with the implication of this specifically in what it says about your actual position the feigned position you present.

If I am correct in my line of reasoning, your real issue is our affecting others freedom of extracting rewards or value from the network without making a meaningful contribution. That's our issue and, of course, it is subjective.

That is why I think your proposition that this can be achieved via a fully programmatic solution is a far cry from what can be achieved in reality at least not in a comprehensive sense.

Sure there is a higher degree of automation that can be achieved and I would like to work to that end but don't think it is wise to fully remove human judgment from the equation however imperfect it can be. Having both leaves us with a more robust solution.

I am one that believes also in the power of the human mind, the extraordinary creation that it is, is able to bolster programming in ways that AI or machine learning are not able... At least not yet

Posted using Partiko Android

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define spam

Here is our consensus definition that may be also found on our GitHub

  • Spam - Repetitively posting articles/pictures/videos with the same and/or similar content, or recyling content after a period of time or across multiple accounts. Spinning one's own, previously published content, is also considered spam.

Thanks to @freebornangel for putting this in a post with an easily readable forget.

Please, let me know your thoughts. Always welcome community feedback in how we may improve definitions.

Posted using Partiko Android

You see the problem is then that all our services, yours included, is considered spam by your collective. You guys comment spam, we spam stats and live streams. And although we spam way more than you do, we allow for natural upvotes, whereas you guys autoupvote every flagrewards comment, thus stealing from all of us. I guess we should start an anti-steemflagrewards community to reduce your impact?

Or perhaps you guys should all come join us so that you can also see that bot accounts and spam is actually beneficial for all of us.

The blockchain itself is doing good. We have a LOT of transactions that happen every second. Steemit and other front end services arent doing so good. As the content that you guys want, do not appeal to mass audiences. Which means we arent creating any new traffic to any of these front ends.

Popular media consists of memes and cat pictures. Parody and satire. You might not like it. I don't even like it. But you have to accept the world as it is, before you can start to change it.

Another thing that bothers me about steemflagrewards, steemcleaners, and all the other busy-bodies. You guys all attack the little guy. Not once have you flagged haejin, or berniesanders, or any of the so-called bad-whales. You don't even flag us because we have enough stake to fight back. Seems kinda like a war between the USA and Nauru.

So, who's funding this blatant oppression of the minnow-class? And why are you, a person with a relatively good moral compass, part of it?

You hit the nail on the head, they attack the little guy just trying to get by and figure things out, what they consider spam is less bad than the spam they produce. They produce spam on other peoples blogs without permission while attacking the blogger accusing him of spam.

They are stealing from all of us by upvoting themselves under the ruse of being police.

Their idea of 'good content' is completely irrelevant and they have no understanding for internet communities, and only pretend to 'police' everyone else according to the wants and needs of the few, the very very boring few.

They are literally fighting whats normal on the internet because they want to pretend that its not normal on steem.

And yes they claim to have an ethical superiority which they certainly don't, they are actually producing harm and calling it good, which is very ethically challenged.

Well, the thing is that we have verifiable proof of brain behind the bot approval mechanism. I promise you our volunteer mods are not automatons. They are human beings with gray mass making the decision to review and approve the mention comments.

What you say though is important for what we are looking to implement soon, that is the auto-approvals for whitelisted abuse fighters. We will ensure that via that mechanism that no comments are generated something I did not think about before your comment.

Way to go, @stephanus! We probably would have overlooked that otherwise.

Posted using Partiko Android

If you take the human out of it, I'd probably comment on your comments way less. Because a bot will have set parameters. IE. Do not copy/paste. Do not reuse photos. Do not etc.

Which would actually encourage certain behaviour. And you would actually make a difference then.

Right now though, nobody knows what's up. Can I post 200 memes consecutively and not get flagged by you? Or can I use vimm to post the same content every 2 hours to generate traffic to my stream? There are NO RULES. Everyone is posting, hoping some collective wont start a flag war with them. Your initiative creates a stressful environment. And nobody wants to work for a bunch of pricks.

Also, if I was a mod, I'd flag this entire discussion because it has nothing to do with the main thread.

There's no such thing as proof of brain, and its certainly not verifiable. Anything you present as evidence of fairness is completely dependent on trusting you, and we don't trust you or your group to decide for anyone whats right and wrong, and presenting proof that you're deciding correctly is not proof that you will or have.

Our community is based on a foundation of trustlessness and censorship resistance, and you tell us 'trust us, we promise you we'll tell you whats right and wrong and we'll even censor those we think is wrong'

You do spam, your 'proof of brain' is not verifiable, you attack bloggers on their own blogs with spam and then you flag them accusing them of spamming, then you upvote your own comments.

I admire your stoic need to misunderstand everything, and I admire that you manage to hold together a community and maintain their belief in whatever you say.

However your claims to morality is not remotely founded, and your service is a cancer.

What I really want to know though, is, what can I do so that we never need to see each other on the blockchain again? Because I am gonna do 90% of the type of stuff you listed. Is there a specific format I can use to bypass your human bots?

finally a complement!

Bernie's got a strong mind and a sense of humor, and he's using it, just cause you don't 'get it' doesn't mean others don't ;)

at least he isn't making steem more boring

How did you get that info about the followers? I've long wanted a way to sift mine and get rid of those who are spoiling my feed page, making it difficult for me to see posts by those I want to follow!

Well, thanks for asking! I actually built the tool for determining your dead followers and dead followings as one our @noblewitness team's many varied contributions to the steem chain!

Find these tools and more here!

http://steem.agency

I am resteeming AND Bookmarking and this page will get pinned on my browser. Already got rid of nearly 50, but my hand is now tired.

I guess there is no way to mark who of the followers, never checks my posts? I think they are the biggest waste of time and space.

lol - that was funny - I actually hit a bug!!!

I hit the resteem button and I got the black bar telling me I cannot resteem anything but the top level...

Well technically thats not a bug as you cant and couldnt.. Its a user interface issue though but luckily ned is single-handledly building us a new one all by himself.

let's hope football and hairspray builds dapps.

corkyyy we all love you, but you are a very naive and lonely individual.

Being in a thread on github doesn't mean that you've contributed much more than what you've done here, which is talk shit. Difference is I don't attack you for talking shit, I talk shit myself, in fact my neo dadaist blog on steem is perfect proof that I know what's up enough to hold a year long satiric comedy about it, if you don't get any of it I'm not surprised, you wouldn't.

I always dig it when you take it out on me, good material :)

It's performance is exactly what I'd like it to be, which is more than what anyone can say about your blog, cause you're always bitching about how you're not getting your 'fair share' which imho you get more than. I have no clue what you're trying to say with your screenshot, I guess the usual right? trying to make steem a little more boring?

Doesn't sound like you did much more than imagine conspiracies :)

I'm just pushing your buttons bro, lighten up a little. And wake up ffs you've been sounding like a broken record since the first day we met.

The developers involved (NOT JUST STINC, EVERYONE) has done an admirable job this week, things are never expected to go wrong, and when they do, that is the measure of the workmanship, how you handle crisis.
@lanmover

The technical chops of the development team is unequalled, @lanmover

  • Does the market agree with HF20?
  • Will this ramp up DAU?
    At what cost?

Yes you have raised very relevant concerns.

I'm afraid the financials of the decision is out of my league, and I know it's had an impact, whether the long term effect will be positive or negative is a matter that I still watch with skeptical reservations of my own, I just feel they handled it fairly decently considering the scope of steem/steemit, not as well as a cooperate site would have perhaps, but I strongly suspect they had no intention to cause damage, and I also suspect that if they were to do it again, they would probably fair better.

We're dealing with new ground right? and that's hard to cover, next time lets all advocate smaller updates, I think that would make sense to you.

The bottom line is networks cost money to run and this is no different.
@taskmaster

      There's no bottomline 
               without a topline.
      That topline stems  
               from DAU.

The bottomline

  1. Is Steemit delivering what it says on the tin?
  2. Has Steemit's deliverables been communicated?
  3. a. Does a freshly minted Steemian understand this?
  4. b. Who specifically within Steemit corporate owns this?

Shades?

There may be 50 shades of grey between free speech and spam, allegedly. It depends on how you define spam. I'm happy with Steemit as it's better than Facebook.

Competition

Steem is doing better in some ways than Gab, Minds, Bitchute, Real Video, Dlive, and other online communities. I'm totally for decentralized, cryptocurrency, blockchain networks, like Steem. I'm for privacy over safety. I'm for personal ownership, and for free markets.

Subjectivity

The tough part might be in defining spam as it may mean what you may not want, like, desire, prefer. However, what I want may not be what you want. So, defining spam and hate speech, subjectively, can be cultural, social, and therefore not objective, which is a path down the wrong road.

So relevant and so right, thanks for saying what needs to be said.

I am a n00b here at Steemit, and very glad just to be a part of it. I don't pretend to understand the larger issues, so I'd be a fool to take sides, but I do understand very well when you say "there is no such thing as a free network".

This same issue applies to the F2P model in online games - if you are not paying a subscription, then you are the product which the game company is selling.

Much respect to all my fellow Steemians.

I designed a system that handles this issue perfectly. We will be launching on the Steem blockchain next year. Take a look and tell me what you think :)

https://medium.com/currentxchange/cryptovoting-with-purple-how-it-works-3d6db1df14b6

Looks like an interesting project and in alignment with the Age of Abundance which is centered out of love/energy/vibration/conscious.

You get it!! Thanks for commenting, that means so much to know that is being conveyed!!!!

Would you like to be involved? We have plenty of room :) Here is the update of the project I sent to the team this morning :)
Lots of ways to get involved! We are planning a steem app before SMT launches to get the Mapp up and running.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EpfJ_eqIpw

What about an Referral System based on Smart Contracts. Lets say Peer-to-Peer account creation would implement a 5 -10% lifetime Author Reward System. Therefore the new User would get 25 - 50SP with its new Account.
Also possible would be a lending System where the new user has to pay back a certain Amount of Steem to its creator.

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Lets say Peer-to-Peer account creation would implement a 5 -10% lifetime Author Reward System.

This does not sound like something new users would appreciate, ever.

Coming from a heavy MLM and marketing former life, I totally agree with you here. That borders on waters of network marketing and rarely do those endeavours end well and further yet - would surely attract the wrong kind of audience and userbase.

Well this option would be only for those who are not willing to invest anything in their Steem-account. They would have to let go of some of the potential profits, therefore they would get a fully functional Steem account from the start to check everything out! Its just an option and not something that is mandatory. I mean Bitshares also has a referral system for lifetime membership something like that would be also possible.

If anything there would be a limited ref reward such as until the 10% has reached the 3 Steem it costs for the account creation and then back to no affiliation.

Sounds good to me. I guess when implemented than every individual user should be able to create its own conditions on how he wants to support the account creation.

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My thoughts.. before i got to typing, then scrolled to read it in this comment.

Why? If you are a good contributer to the steem blockchain, you are investing in the platform with your time and chosen skillset, that's how and why you get rewarded, how much is up to the community. And this isn't Bitshares.

Yes and how you said it will always be like that. If a new user creates good content and receives upvotes for it, that will still be his major income. I was just giving an idea of how to pay for the extra Steempower a new user might want from the beginning. The question from this post was - who is paying for the extra SP for new users so they have more RC? What is your suggestion?

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Turning STEEM into a pyramid scheme would destroy its credibility.

I've literally had to show every new user I introduced that it doesn't have that kind of system, because they suspected it might.

If you have half a mind and have lived in the last century, you know that earning something for nothing is never a good system.

Adding a referral system to Steemit would be a total nightmare.

thanks d-pend you get it :)

I agree, but that's common sense. Logic.

However, my brain can't comprehend the last few words you just typed out, I kinda exploded, but that's more because of the accusation you put in between the lines.

If your own brain capacity is limited by that much intelligence, i understand that you can't process the idea that good content is mandatory on this platform and worth so much more than "nothing". The ideology here is that the community decides how much it will be rewarded. There is a chance you earn nothing, but is earning the focus? Is creating good content the focus? Is curating shit posts for a higher CR the focus? You tell me.

Please, before making it sound like you're superior by implying that other people who do not agree with you are incompetent: Get a better understanding about the (revolutionary) concept of steem and get out of your litter first.

Good content is mandatory, that doesn't mean bad content should be banned.

The focus should be allowing people to use the system the way they would use it.

Earning rewards for other peoples posts because you referred them to the platform would make it questionable in my opinion, very very questionable.

I believe I stated that plainly.

I do not imply that disagreeing with me is incompetant, it is my opinion that money based referral systems are super dodgy and trusting anything to do with one is incompetent, that's all.

It's ok to disagree with me, there's nothing to be afraid of.

You are totally missing the point here and the message of the post from @steemitblog There is no free money here and we are far off from any pyramid structure otherwise you don't understand blockchain and the reward pool.
The question of this post was who is paying for the extra SP or RC so that new users have more ability to interact. Your answer is totally of the charts...so try to come up with something better?

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@masterthematrix, I think you missed the point of the post I was responding to . . .

I said a financial incentive referral system where you get a part of your referral's post rewards, would be a very bad PR move among sensible folk.

I suspect its the comment ordering or perhaps you replied in haste. I'm not saying steemit is pyramid like at all, I'm saying that earning rewards for the activity of members you enroll would make it seem that way.

berniesanders is a legitimate blogger, a voted witness and an anonymous celebrity.

sure, like how berniesanders does it if you're into that, he's just collecting some of his interest on his stake instead of handing it all out. He hands out a lot of high power votes too.

Freedom of speech/anarcho capitalism.

it would appear you used the lords name in vain :)

How about this: You buy more if you want more. And it's easy.

Get on a exchange or buy through @blocktrades.
Buy steem.
Send steem.
Power up steem.

That is not a new solution you can do that anyways. The question was how to solve the problem that new user accounts can interact more with Steem Blockchain without extra investing...read the post.

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Investing what exactly? Time, money, crypto, ideas? The real question should be: Do we really need a solution so new user accounts can have more interactions? I don't think so, because there are other issues that caused this in the first place that needs to be fixed.

I am not saying that you -need- to invest straight away, but if you, as an individual, want more interactions, you invest in the platform, instead of complaining that you can't do shit here. Hopefully, with this "limitation" people will think twice about what they are going to comment/post and actually make Steemit have fewer shitposts, plagiarism, spam and everything else that is giving a negative reputation to the platform.

As far as my concerns will go, the way how it is right now is good enough. Hopefully, the platform will filter out all the people that are here just for the quick bucks so we can invest our stake to those who are here to stay.

I heard there might be some type of RC pool that would allow the leasing of RC...I am not sure about that though.

The referral system sounds like a great idea. It might be good to elaborate on it some more...there is a way to write smart contracts on this blockchain now. I am not sure how it would tie into SP though.

Saw the idea for RC delegations being floated by @therealwolf. Sounded like another vote buying scheme to me.

pasate por weku y me cuentas luego

This is a most excellent post by the Steemit team. At the same time you fuck the money by just post a single comment .

I agree with you @taskmaster4450 and I have nothing to say! But what about a Referral System based on Smart Contracts.

I am glad to see the platform useable again. I however can not say I know exactly what the new features have come with the HF20. I would be glad to see a quick easy to understand summary of the changes maybe short bullet point. Thanks