A healthy community discussion: Abuse via tokenized proxy?
Over the last few weeks I have been keeping my eye on various behaviors on Steem and now that the worst of the bidbot abuse has been cleared away, attention has fallen on other points. One of these is where a tribe token is used to buy votes that will arrive in Steem. After getting into a conversation about a post I downvoted, it was mentioned that this is one of if not the most successful SCOT tribes because it has attracted a lot of stake behind it however, is it?
I wonder this because as far as I can see, there is very little value in the tribe itself other than being a vehicle where to post and then use the native token to purchase Steem votes from the stake that hangs around there. Doesn't this mean that the only value of the tribe is as a gateway to get access to Steem the pool?
This is fine in and of itself, but while the native token can be treated independently from Steem, once a post attracts votes in Steem, it falls under the scrutiny of Steem users who have the ability to direct Steem toward or away from the post using their own stake.
What I wonder is how many of the tribes have value if there was no Steem stake involved, as it would be this that is a litmus test to see if the use case and value proposition is going to hold up as an independent community. Having said that, I think many of the coming applications will be given a boost by stake in the startup phases, but eventually they will have to be able to stand on their own two feet and offer value that their users are willing to consider as valuable enough to buy if a token, or use and have advertising pay for the overheads.
An example of an application that started with some stake backing and then transformed to a standalone community on Steem is Splinterlands, and even the name change from Steemmonsters is indicative of the quest to be independent, even though it is still attached to Steem. This should and I believe will happen more and more to the point that Steem-based application will have users who will never really know of or see Steem at all other than perhaps a line at the bottom of a webpage that says, Powered by Steem.
While most tokens in the crypto industry have very little utility if any other than a target for pump and dumps, eventually the projects that are able to add use case and therefore user base will hold the majority of the value. The great thing about Steem is that these applications and communities can be owned and built upon Steem and through the tokenization of the projects, can have highly independent and controllable environments that can offer a massive range of user experience, in the same way the internet does already.
They can distribute their native tokens in any way they chose, however when it comes to the distribution of the Steem pool, it is Steem stakeholders who have the final say on where that value moves. This has to be considered when votes are cast in STEEM, even if it is not a consideration when casting in another token that utilizes the Steem blockchain.
When it comes to the value of a token, if the only utility it has is to sell it for a vote in another token, the token itself has very little value at all by itself. A SCOT tribe token getting sold for STEEM on Steem-Engine is different to paying for a vote in Steem because one is a direct transaction between two accounts, the other draws on the Steem pool that is open to negotiation by all community members for seven days.
While I do not have answers on what is right or wrong, the cleanup that has taken place over the last few weeks has meant that previously hidden and ignored actions are coming into the spotlight, getting attention and being discussed. For the longevity of Steem the ecosystem, i believe that this is a good thing and while the process might be uncomfortable, the resolution of challenges will help provide a great deal more value to the ecosystem over time.
The long-term health of Steem should be the aim for all investors and that outcome requires active thought and development of the community, the sub-communities and the entire technical infrastructure to be able to support scalability and hopefully, growth of the user base and the economy of Steem.
Taraz
[ a Steem original ]
Interesting post, I must admit, I don't know much about the tribes, but it will be interesting to see what develops!! Have a nice !BEER in the mean time LOL!!
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I think adding value to a token, by awarding Steem, while paying with the New Token is devaluing Steem.
As that is my position I am choosing to downvote those posts or at least a couple of them a day.
I am not looking to make everyone else do it. I think if we all do our best to award decent behavior and content and downvote what we think is harmful that is good enough.
It is an interesting topic and I'm curious to see who will discuss it as it has a lot of powerful stake caught in the debate.
I have been watching them for a couple weeks but didn't look into it as I had other things to focus on. For me, it doesn't seem to add any value to the platform other than holding some stake here, but I think that abusive stake needn't stay.
Apparently, you and I ;D
Yeah, I noticed the shenanigans that Koreans are doing. Seems like they didn't hear about #newsteem. Now I at least don't have to think much where to put my downvotes.
It is an interesting one as I don't know if they see the issue with it at all. At least from a Steem perspective though, I think stakeholders should take a look.
I'm translating some Korean articles and it seems the word about the changes of EIP and behavior changes is going through though.
I added a comment in "korean" to a post using translate but never got a reply.
Many Koreans are aware that vote selling and buying is frowned upon.
Some may feign ignorance if called out on it.
Several high profile members of their community communicate well in English.
They can ignore us, but the community won't ignore them.
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I'm not to up to speed on how tribes and tokens work. Is it not a case that to sell a tribe token on steem engine for steem then someone must be selling steem?
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Yep. But they are trading the tokens for votes in Steem, not selling them afaik
Edit. So buying the token for less than the vote they are going to get I guess.
I see. Well selling votes was always going to be an issue, via tokens or not. Lol this will leave the voter with a shit loads of valueless tokens to burn hehehehe..
I can, and I do use my partiko point for steem votes. Would you consider this the same? I actually do, although I was rewarded the points, I didn't buy them for a vote.
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The vote value on the largest I think is 27STU and there are several more. They are hitting Trending.
I don't think the voter cares about the valueless tokens, as I figure they are the ones selling them to begin with.
Oh, yeah with the partiko points, I guess it is the same in some way, but the value is so, so much less and it is being spread to many, many people.
Why? because profits nominal to encourage financial manipulation of rewards are potential. The negative consequences to curation, and myriad others, devolve from this vector as long as it remains extant. Tweaks, as we have seen repeatedly, are just playing whack a mole. At this point it's just an excuse to not solve the problem.
The Huey Long algorithm solves the problem, and ends the harm it causes. Vote selling doesn't have to be an issue. It's soluble.
Tokenised bid botting, I suspected that was what the posts I cannot understand are all about but they are largely untouched by people. I was waiting to see if anyone else was jumping in for a flagging. If the water is fine then I will start!
Give it time, the discussions are likely ongoing ;D
Then I shall avidly watch!
I already started, though I have an extended experience jumping head first to cold showers, so take that as you will.
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View or trade
BEER
at steem-engine.Hey @tarazkp, here is a bit
BEER
for you. Enjoy it!So I have read this post 3 times. If I understand your thoughts, is that people load up on SCOT tokens to get votes from larger Steem users with bigger Steem stake (SP) and this results in a bigger draw on the Steem pool because of the tribe following and not necessarily a quailty Steem post??
you can follow the trail if you want:

The matter cannot be resolved independently of the vector, financial manipulation of rewards via stake, as we see demonstrated via prior tweaks. Simply cutting to the chase and eliminating that vector is the necessary action. Absent incentive to manipulate rewards stake will undertake different strategies, and all the negative consequences of manipulation will end. While whole new problems will eventuate, successfully solving problematic consequences of financial manipulation will provide a far more functional social engagement mechanism, which is the foundation for Steem value.
Tokens dependent on their use to facilitate financial manipulation are part of that vector, and even if we can eliminate them, we're just playing whack a mole as long as financial incentive exists to manipulate rewards mechanisms. Bid bots, circle jerks, all such mechanisms depend on a common vector and share a common solution: eliminating incentive nominal to profitable manipulation. To this end I have proposed the Huey Long algorithm.
Thanks!
It isn't so easy to do but I think that the only way it can be achieved is when there is a high degree of decentralization and a high degree of ownership as it brings responsibility and less direct reliance.
The community needs clearer post hf21 consensus on what is right and what is wrong. This will take time. Bid bot use has evolved with sct and will again with smt.
I'm glad people are starting to notice.
Another concern I have is tag abuse. This definition is evolving a lot. Too many people are tagging too many coins with more of an interest in recieivng the coin than doing anything for the community. There are also a lot of tags that can be mistakes to use. Those don't count.
Yea, while uncomfortable, I think it is best to have these discussions now rather than when the price of Steem raises a lot more emotion.
Tag abuse is another factor, but it is up to the individual tribes to police their community, one of the benefits of a tribe. When it comes to what happens on Steem though, all Steem holders have that job.