The Facts

in #steem7 months ago

In this post I summarize what happened on the Steem blockchain regarding the so called 'hostile takeover' in the recent weeks and what exactly brought us into the current situation. I try to be as neutral as possible and let the facts speak for themselves.

Laws are not based on opinions, therefore it is time to overcome the inner devils, stop fighting each other and see the facts clearly for what they are.

I am aware of the fact that there have been decisions made based on assumptions and fear by some community members and witnesses, which I do not include in this summary, because I want to focus on the major (relevant) points in order to be able to present you a clear picture of the situation.

Logic


As many talks and actions of defence started to become childish, I need to explain one important thing at the beginning:

'B' comes after 'A'. Same goes for the number '2', which (when counting forwards) always follows to a smaller number, for example '1'.

Example (for children)


The following statement makes sense:

I took my son to a doctor, because he had trouble breathing after he was stung by a big hornet. After the medical treatment my son could breath freely again.

While this statement does not make sense:

I took my son to a big hornet, because he had trouble breathing after he was medically treated by a doctor. After the hornet stung him my son could breath freely again.

Summary

Point 1

Justin Sun (@justinsunsteemit) buys Steemit and informs the Steem community about his goals to make Steem more successful by prioritizing marketing and caring about good relationships to big crypto exchanges. He states that he does not intent to get involved into voting witnesses or changing Steem's existing consensus rules by using his acquired stake.

Point 2

The majority of Steem's top/crucial witnesses decide to programmatically freeze the new owner's accounts by installing a new Steem version on their servers, that can be run immediately without applying a hardfork. This so called 'softfork' (SF) can be activated instantly without even informing the Steem community about it and it contains the code to block specific blockchain operations for Mr. Sun's accounts.

Point 3

Justin informs the existing Steem exchanges about the fact that his Steem accounts got hacked (funds got frozen) and that the crypto world needs to work together to regain access to his funds and to prevent those 'hackers' from getting away with it.

Point 4

External security experts come to the conclusion that the best way to counter the 'hack' is to stake (Powerup) a large amount of STEEM, so that temporarily created 'dummy' witnesses can get voted to the top of Steem's witness list to be able to run an own softfork, which reverses the changes of the 'hackers' installed softfork. Relevant exchanges therefore begin to powerup their existing STEEM tokens and vote for the created 'dummy' witnesses.

Point 5

As long as nothing can ensure that no additional accounts can be 'frozen' over night with another softfork by those 'hackers', the created 'dummy' witnesses will stay active and prevent further dangerous softforks.

Conclusions


Pretending to be a victim does not erase previously taken actions. The exchanges did their best to help keeping Steem decentralized and this could only be done with such a drastic action. It should be clear that the exchanges are not to blame for the current situation.

The witnesses ability to freeze someone's account over night without even talking to the community (which elects them and gives them their power to do so in the first place) clearly is a feature that should not exist in a decentralized blockchain.

My personal conclusions will follow in an extra post.


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  1. Justin bought Steemit Inc, not Steem
  2. Witnesses tried to communicate with him but received no response
  3. Justin tweeted about token swaps. Again, he bought Steemit Inc, not Steem
  4. Justin used a TRON stake which was promised to not vote for Block Producers for exactly that
  5. Steemit has a similar stake that was promised to not vote.
  6. Witnesses decided to safeguard the decentralization of Steem because a similar action was to be expected and no communication could be established
  7. Justin told exchanges about a hack and promised special upgrades for them
  8. Exchanges powered up customer funds to interfere with Steem governance
  9. Justin sent payments to these exchanges

That is how events have unfolded before my eyes.

I would be happy to learn if I left out facts or got the chronology wrong

This is absolutely correct. The fact that steemchiller is purposefully leaving out facts is beyond dishonest.

It shows without a doubt who is in the right here.
THOSE THAT DO NOT LEAVE OUT FACTS.

Witnesses got spooked by Justin Sun's plan like that token swap which prompted most of them to take actions to halt that "plan" among other things @steemchiller.
Plus the fact that Justin Sun colluded with three major exchanges to power-up steem of their customers just to help him vote Justin's puppet witnesses verified his threat potential in centralizing steem platform.

Justin colluded, AKA stole money.

he did not steal money or Steem.
Why you would say such a thing is beyond my comprehension.
Some exchanges powered up customers Steem and they will get it back sooner or later. What they did is not good but accusing Sun of theft is inaccurate even if it is a populist stance.

At least one of the exchanges denies customer transactions were impacted at all.
I can not be fucked finding the link again but if i stumble over it I will pass on the link to you if you like.

Exchanges did that but they shouldn't do that. Yes, banks do that this too for many decades now. But it is still theft. Yes, it is normal for banks to do. It is normal but it is also wrong. It is theft. Yes, some people call it not theft. But it is theft. You may think it is not theft. But technically, it is a type of theft. It is simply not the kind of robbery that you are thinking. It is indirect perhaps. It is different. It is a different type of theft but still theft nonetheless. Banks should not do what they do. This all went downhill especially in 1913 with the beginning of the Federal Reserve for example, if not longer than that as well. Look at the history of Rothschild and others. Follow the money. Look at what happened in 1933 and 1871 and 1695. It goes on and on and on. Look at the different people and look at what they did. It is a long story that had been going on globally for centuries or longer.

"Some exchanges powered up customers Steem and they will get it back sooner or later."

LOL clearly not YOUR money, or you'd be first in line to bitch about it being stolen.

You got some crystal ball that lets you see the future and how we all ride off into the sunset with our money?

No?

Didn't think so.

I saw a good explanation as to why it can be considered theft. That got me thinking about a car I had that was stolen. I got it back and it was not damaged in any way, but it was still stolen.
So in light of that I changed my opinion.

My thinking at the time was that people will get it back. I have read stories about exchanges that have closed up shop and people lost everything they had in the exchange permanently !
Hopefully that will not be the case here.

At the time when i was making comments about not being stolen, I did not conciser the Steemit inc funds stolen ether. But in light of the above, maybe there is case to be made that it was stolen? I dont know

Presently I am informed that Binance and Huobi are powering down, so it does appear that they will be in a position to return the funds taken from their customers. Huobi has directly stated it will not use it's customer funds so again. Binance has apologized, but I am not aware of a direct statement from them they will not use their customer's fund likewise again. I hope the market keeps that in mind.

Stealing, as you point out, is taking someone elses stuff and depriving them of it. Even if the thief gets caught, or has a fit of remorse and returns the stuff stolen, the theft still has occurred.

If Binance and Huobi return their customer's funds, that will be good, and the right thing to do. I reckon they have still caused those clients financial harm in several ways, and expect that some of their customers who have suffered that harm will seek recompense. I do hope the exchanges justly compensate them, instead of forcing those injured parties to seek remedy in court.

Yes i listened to an interview with the ceo of Binance and he said that no customers funds were delayed . I am not sure if that is true but he did say it. That was a day or two ago. He also said that the next time they receive such a request they will actually do some due diligence.

CZ has said a lot of things that aren't true, because telling the truth about committing crimes is tantamount to confession. I can point you to more than one user on Steem right now that has posted their personal communications with Binance to get their money that Binance refused to provide with 'wallet maintenance' excuses.

The claims that no customers have been denied their funds is factually incorrect. CZ knows that and knew it before he claimed otherwise, which makes that claim a lie.

First of all - the wasp and doctor example seems like a misfit. I can understandthat there may be different opinions on what party is trying to do a "hostile takeover". To me, it seems more like the situation where one child takes a toy from another child, and the other child tries to "fix" the problem by beating the first child.

I came late to the party and haven't paid attention nor done much fact checking. My initial thought when reading about the aquisition was ... "this could be bad, but I hope it's good". Well, now things have turned sour and it's hard to imagine good outcomes anymore.

I think it's important to stay rational, consider both sides of the story with an objective and neutral mind. I also think it's important that the steemit.com site won't split with the community - never underestimate the network effect, in case of a chain fork, both of the chain partitions will stay significantly weaker than the parent chain - both steemit.com and the Steem community have a lot to lose and not much to win from such a split.

The decision to block transactions (including change of witness votes) for the SteemPower held by SteemIt may have been dubious, and can be seen as a hostile takeover. I can somehow understand that the exchanges got on board if Sun have been telling them a good story; it's both in the interest of the exchanges, the community and the token holders to avoid "hostile takeovers".

Now what was the need to block those funds - did steemit have more than 50% of the stake? Was the Steem "democracy" built upon a gentlemans agreement that SteemIt would never abuse their power? In that case I can fully understand why the other witnesses decided to temporarily block SteemIt from doing what they deemed to be a "hostile takeover".

When some conflict breaks out, it's important to from the very start talk together, try to understand each other and discuss compromises - but the instinct often seems to be to retaliate fast, hard and swiftly, hence escalate the situation. The exchanges seems to have been doing a bad job doing fact checking and community outreach.

  • Using tokens deposited by customers to support one part in a conflict, without consoluting the de-jure token owners ... not a good idea.
  • Since it takes 13 weeks to fully power down, this also was a very risky move. What if the customers would try to withdraw their tokens? Such a move makes it even more likely, as some disgusted customers would be likely to want to withdraw funds, power up and vote against the exchanges.
  • Possibly to keep up with promises given to the exchanges, now the Tron folks are begging for a quickfix allowing the exchanges to power down quickly. Changing the rules of a blockchain just so one party can keep up some promises given to another party ... I have no words for it, that's really a taboo, blockchain technology is not supposed to work like that!
  • Perhaps the exchanges didn't understand the concept of locking funds - or perhaps they were promised a quick protocol change to unlock the funds once control of the chain had been regained. I'm not sure what is worse.
  • A quick look, and there are like twenty witnesses on the list that are running the new potentially harmful .5-release, none of them have bothered filling out an avatar nor a one-liner ... I did a quick look into one of the witnesses and found no witness information at all. None of the old, regular witnesses runs the .5-release. To me, this is a pretty clear indication that whomever is running the .5-release of the software is trying to perform a hostile takeover.

To me, this is a pretty clear indication that whomever is running the .5-release of the software is trying to perform a hostile takeover.

THIS.

None of the sockpuppet witnesses running 22.5 have updated price feeds even once. The issuance of SBD is whack, and it'll keep getting worse as long as Tron keeps governance from being undertaken by the community.

It's starting to fuck our money up, and we should be consulting counsel as a result. I don't expect polite requests to remedy the tort Tron is causing to produce results, since no other requests have produced any of Tron to date, including repeated requests to update the price feeds.

Lawyer up folks. This is gonna hit you in the wallet.

I seriously don't think any lawyer will be able to fix this mess - and the whole idea of involving lawyers and courts does not sit easy with most people in this community, "code is law". Perhaps it's a flawed idea to let the witnesses tell what they believe the USD-value of Steem is (or what they want it to be) without any kind of commitment.

Seeking a remedy is not necessarily fixing anything. It's just being made as whole after being broken as close as possible.

Maybe the idea is flawed. However, the system is set up for the price feeds to be updated, and when they're not, the Steem blockchain goes awry. What do you think is in control of rewards, SBD conversion, SBD printing, and payouts? The price feed.

It needs adjusting. Seeking redress of a tort is only necessary because assholes do you harm. Know a better way to get compensated for being harmed? Do let me know please.

The real WTF was probably allowing this "ninja mined stake" to exist without any safe-guards against malicious usage.

It's to be expected that many token-owners won't vote, it's to be expected that many token-owners will have tokens on the exchanges without bothering about it, but totally unexpected that the exchanges (except poloniex) would partake in such a move without doing proper due diligence.

The price feed is an average of the price set by witnesses, right? Or is it the median? It ought to be the median - in which case 20 witnesses reporting the wrong value won't skew the price too much.

If it's the average, a work-around could be that the active witnesses would count a bit on it and also report wrong values, trying to get the average right.

"It ought to be..."

Well, now that you've chimed in, I'm sure everything will be alright.

You don't even know what the price feed does, or how it's used. Why even have an opinion if you know damn well your opinion is utterly insipid and without value of any kind whatsoever? Oh, you're shilling for your preferred overlord, and that's the point of posting your meritless opinion on price feeds.

STFU.

@steemchiller, this is very disappointing! What's that, newbie's talk?
The Steem DECENTRALIZED blockchain worked exactly like it was supposed to... with the consent of the community.
In fact, at any time community could've voted out witnesses with a conduct contrary to the principles of this blockchain.
But this did not happen and indeed they have had a greater consensus from the Steem Community to the detriment of those who tried a hostile takeover.

The takeover occurred after the freezing of his account. Consent of community? THe witnesses did not talk to the community. We didnt even get a chance to see what Justins intention where going to be. He was just another big whale with 20%. Not a majority.

The takeover occurred after the freezing of his account.

There was no need to do it before.. but this circumstance has shown his true intentions.

Consent of community? THe witnesses did not talk to the community.

Witnesses who had supported the SF could be removed by the community, but the opposite has happened. I repeat, they have had a greater consensus from the Steem Community on the occasion of the second SF (0.22.5).

This consensus is composed of which whales? The consensus is also based on misinformation. THe circumstance shows the reaction. Did blocktrades use costumer steem?

The consensus is also based on misinformation

LOL. Don't just assume that community consists of foolish and ignorant. You rather... Why don't you write with your real account instead of hiding behind a fake username?

As far as I know, Blocktrades does not hold customer funds.

I think I read at some point that Steem was powered by "Proof of Brain" ...

the wider communities influence over the top twenty witness selection is virtually non existent.
The witnesses are controlled by a handful of accounts.
steemit only has the appearance of decentralization. In reality it is an oligarchy

I don’t think a person that at this point still confuses STEEM and steemit deserves a detailed answer.

LOL You seem confused.
Your reply is hilarious because even using Steem would not be that great, a better term would be 'Steem Blockchain' in many videos people refer to it as the Steemit Blockchain and nobody cares.

If you are unable to defend your own argument its better just not to respond.
Better to be thought a fool than to respond and remove all doubt

In fact you have removed all doubt.

the wider communities influence over the top twenty witness selection is virtually non existent.

A little hint:

hint.jpg

then try with fake witnesses: where do you see a community consent?

Thanks for sharing the wonder of SteemPeak that is really cool. I had only had a quick look previously

Anyway, you are ether confused or deliberately twisting what I said. I know that crap works on so many people so I guess its worth a shot.

What I said was that it is only a hand full of people that determine who gets into the top 20
We all know people are stupid, just look who got elected into office in the US. The key difference here is that we have Stake based voting for witnesses. Not one person one vote. Its an oligarchy not a democracy.
If it were a democratic system Sun would not even be able to get one witness into the top 20 lol

The system is deeply flawed

Thanks for sharing the wonder of SteemPeak that is really cool. I had only had a quick look previously

Well, at least our little talk made an impact. :D
Other than that, you and I take a different view on that one.

I have been trying to upload images on my profile and Steemit would not let me. It went up right away here. I am so grateful cheers

Yes we do have different views and that is what i like about talking with others. Its gives us the opportunity to consider new things and I do find myself changing my mind and occasionally others change theirs : )

Someone is still pissed about the SPS ^^
Your 'facts' are so wrong I don't even know where to begin, I ll let others take care of it.

You totally forgot the fact that Sun mentioned several times "token swap". That triggered the soft fork. Also you forgot the ninja mined tokens that was supposed to be used to help the development of the community. On top of that you totally forgot that exchanges took the steem of their users without their consent to take over the witnesses spots and now binance had to admit publicly in many crypto news and blogs it was a mistake. Maybe our witnesses acted a bit quick trying to protect the blockchain, maybe not cause this is not the first time Sun does a witness take over but saying the witnesses are the ones who put us in this situation is wrong. If you gonna take a side, take the side of the community cause you're part of it.

I care about my assets/ funds

Pretending to be a victim does not erase previously taken actions. The exchanges did their best to help keeping Steem decentralized and this could only be done with such a drastic action. It should be clear that the exchanges are not to blame for the current situation.

Since when is it legal to use customer assets without ever mentioning anything in that direction. And more.. To stake it (lock/ freeze) and now lying by telling me the Wallet is in maintenance.
You basically tell me, stealing assets from their customer is okay now.

A ninja stake is also a feature, which clearly shouldnt exist in a decentralized blockchain.

Since when is it legal to use customer assets without ever mentioning anything in that direction

Banks does it all the time.

Okay - so we just continue fucking and stealing from each other?

I do think it's morally wrong and totally unexpected that the exchanges should use tokens deposited by customers to support one side in a conflict, even without doing sufficient amounts of due research, but I don't think any laws have been broken here. It could even be good that the exchanges react to protect weak chains against hostile takeovers - though, in this case it seems quite clear to me that the "hostile takeover" is performed by those running the .5-version.

When customers want to withdraw tokens but cannot because they are "powered up" and cannot be "powered down" instantly ... well, that's also quite unexpected, unheard of, and even quite unacceptable - but I'm not sure any laws are broken. Banks take this risk all the time. Airline companies ... even worse, sometimes even getting the police to drag out passengers that have a valid ticket from the plane because it's overbooked. (digression: my parents-in-law ended up in transit on a small airport as the second leg of their journey was overbooked, the flight company had no personnel on the airport that could take care of them, internet on the airport didn't work, roaming was bloody expensive, and they don't speak English that well - they had to call my wife, she spent an hour sorting things out for them. Horrible story, but I don't think the flight company broke any laws).

If thieves run the gubmint and legalize theft, then.. O wait.

Caveat Emptor. I don't use banks, and I don't use exchanges, because they're thieves. Wanna keep your money? Don't let thieves handle it.

A ninja stake is also a feature, which clearly shouldnt exist

Agreed. This is a bigger WTF than that someone decides using such a ninja stake for a 51% attack.

HAHA
do you see the spam. it comes from one of the ninja miners. he has claimed many times from one of his other accounts that he controls the top twenty witnesses .
i think he may be pissed off right now : )

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This account of events is somewhat more favorable to Justin Sun than what I would deem to be completely neutral

However, given the absolute torrent of filth flowing out against him lately, I'm not hesitating for a moment to upvote this

However, given the absolute torrent of filth flowing out against him lately, I'm not hesitating for a moment to upvote this

Reminds me of some labor negotiations that I've seen.

I have been amazed at how unions and management in some past disputes could disagree so vigorously, then reach an agreement and go back to work a day later as if nothing had happened.

Here's hoping we get an end result like that here, too.

LOL yea thats why they manufacture just about everything in China and Japan now.
they can fuck workers over more easily there

That's because they don't like workers. They just want to fuck them.

Exactly, the ruling class is same the world over.
They want obedient slaves. That is why they closed down so much of our manufacturing in the western world and moved it over there. We were forcing them to pay us for our work

You favor Centralization? Hahahhaaaaa

Interesting position to take, despite all the evidence.

Not that I imagine it’ll make much of a difference, but have you read this?

Another voice of reason. This is going somewhere :D Respect @trafalgar

I agree with your take on this. The witnesses did not consult with the Steemit community before freezing Sun’s assets. There has also been a little anti Chinese sentiment creeping in to some posts I’ve read which concerns me 🤔

The witnesses did consult with stakeholders of consequence, but did so without alerting Tron, as was necessary to their enterprise. After the SF, support for those witnesses increased, showing the community did support their action.

I myself was not in favor of the SF, but another of the many mistakes I have made on Steem, and changed my witness votes. That's how witness elections work. It's a liquid democracy, and such policies are either supported or disabled through the instant provision of, or withdrawal of, votes for witnesses.

Some people are assholes, and some are racists. I note that none of the witnesses that undertook the SF have in any way evinced racism. If you are impacted by folks whose views you cannot respect, and would prefer those voices did not reach you, use the mute button. Shuts them up good.

A reaction out of fear is always a dangerous one...

Sun just show he did not like being frozen,maybe he buy Steemit Inc. in "good faith". He just show his power and what he can do being Who he is. He maybe a treat to this decentralize community, but also he have huge potential to bring this Steemit to another level.. what was happen is just a good learning curve in achieving a true decentralize community... Steem On.✌

Yes, the goal is to finally achieve having a true decentralized community, especially regarding the top witnesses. We all know that for years only a few stakeholders had full control over those so called 'independent' witnesses. Those who did not agree to the king's plans lost their income with a click of two people. That's pure central power and not decentralized in any means.

The more big investors join us, the more decentralized it will get. Maybe that's where all the fear is coming from...

" We all know that for years only a few stakeholders had full control over those so called 'independent' witnesses."

And now you celebrate such diversity as had been extant eliminated by just one witness and stakeholder. Such decentralizaton you promote. I don't need drugs. I can just read your words and roam in your hallucinatory world.

I don't celebrate our current situation, but I like to see changes coming. Ignoring the same shit over and over again won't do us a favour.

If I would code a comment bot that spams peoples posts as @iflagtrash did for years already, it would be downvoted to rep 0 and put on blacklists within a few days. So, our 'trusted' witnesses are incapable of removing that moron from our network. Incapable, even if they hate all the spam, because they would lose their income.

Our top witnesses are creating blacklists for accounts that post politically incorrect content. Saying that just nobody cares would not be 100% accurate. Nobody wants to lose trust by the self-chosen kings. It has become a fully centralized shit-show a long time ago and we all know this. Why should investors join such a self-destructing mindset based network?

I didn't take any drugs for over a year, but I agree that most of us still live in a hallucinatory world on Steem. Maybe now in these testing times we have a chance to see our own mistakes better and stop ignoring all that what was driving away big investors.

At least DPOS needs to be rethought completely, because as we see in its current form it cannot protect us against a takeover. We need to decide what is more important to us. Fighting a billionaire who we welcomed with freezing his funds or working together and improving the system for a win-win.

Currently, by fighting him in his posts, big stakeholders are doing their best to destroy us completely. Not the wisest decision for sure.

You're not even wrong about Bernie and the witnesses, but this is not better.

This is worse yet than what has been, despite how bad it's been.

Blacklisting content based on political correctness and waiting for customers to join this holy 'decentralized' network is like opening an ice cream store in Antarctica. The whole world talks about this already.

They messed with the people and now comes the payday. Steem is here to give people a voice who otherwise have no chance in this world. They destroyed one of the greatest strengths of this network.

Now finally they know how it feels to not be in control. If the old kings were able to bring such a genius technology down so far, it should be clear that even a child has good chances to fix the mess. I don't want to say that it's all being done with the goal to fail, but it begins to look like this is the case.

Sucking up to overlords is the wrong solution, and I utterly renounce it. I see you're being well rewarded for pandering to Sun. Enjoy the wages of sin, as it were, because you will spend them in hell.

You are utterly retarded to seek total subjugation as a way to reject oligarchical domination. Frying pans and fire, and all that.

'They' haven't destroyed it. 'They' have diminished it, but it yet exists. Tron will utterly destroy it, and that's what you're doing.

DIAF

Come on. Currently people are competing in powering up as much STEEM as possible. Both sides will do this indefinitely until consensus is met. Is there a better way to get the people to power up that fast? Do you really think that they will give up their stake? No way.

The most concerning thing is that main blockchain developers left us. There are enough developers available to keep this ship up, but of course, it takes time to study and get comfortable with the existing code.

A community fork would possibly end in a two cent shitcoin on Binance, therefore I don't believe that this is really an option for most stakeholders.

Huge advertising operations can bring in more people than we got in all the years in just a few weeks.

first things get worse
a lot worse, for a long time.

Then nothing happens.. and you are made to believe that is fucking positive.

Yet still nothing happens..

Good eh?

My wife wanted me to film the birth of our firstborn. I told her I had already filmed the conception, and preferred that video.

Both are messy events, and that's the human condition.

nature is ugly, and without that nothing can be bootyful.

pardon my ingleech its not my first lingo

Great article @steemchiller! Finally, another big voice that speaks the truth. Hard to express your feelings and come with real facts these days. You got my respect.

  1. Acknowledge witnesses made a mistake
  2. Respect another person's property
  3. Don't feel buthurt because you got rekt by the big 4.
  4. Swallow your ego and allow them to get their stake back. ASAP
  5. The community gets his elected witnesses back
  6. Life goes on, why worry?

all witnesses are running code with no Soft fork.
exchanges would in 2 days have 1/13 of the stake if they started the power down. Doing 2 hard forks to get them out in few days means coding them, testing them, and implementing them. not sure were you here for last 2 hard forks that were tested for a while. it is not something that you want to do ASAP

I was actually, yes. But I am not sure if you really know what you are talking about or just citating drakos. These EXACT words I have heard 2 days ago...
How is the weather where you live? Went surfing this morning, waves were good.

it is shitty. we had rain for 3 day now. so not a great time to be out. my closest beach is 600km away and really no waves.

i do know that it would probably not be that hard to code it as the last forks were as not that much changes, but it is still a hard fork and shit can go down, doing that just because 2 accounts on steem? not really sure if i would like that.

JS started the aggressions by announcing that he's going to move Steem to Tron. There's nothing that could be misunderstood in that.

Finally. Happy to see something straight out of fact. This post must deserve resteem by many.

곰돌이가 @jaydih님의 소중한 댓글에 $0.034을 보팅해서 $0.008을 살려드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 7571번 $100.580을 보팅해서 $102.311을 구했습니다. @gomdory 곰도뤼~

Did crypto exchanges not steal Steem from their users to vote for witnesses? Is that not theft?

Yu-Gi-Oh was a fun show.

soon all the US will belong to steem.

yes i'm a prophet

Yes. Steem will soon be greater than Bitcoin. Accumulate and hodl.

hodl 4 life, then be shocked

I wouldn't use the word "theft", this is more like "fractional banking". I think it's dishonest to use customer funds to support one side with votes in a conflict without the customers consent, but probably not illegal, and not "theft".

Are you saying that fractional banking is not theft? When I say theft, I do not mean legally theft. When I say theft, I mean a different kind of theft then the kind you speak of.

Fractional banking is not theft. The bank does not steal my money when I deposit them there. I know all I get from putting my money into the bank is an IOU-note.

Watching a film on Popcorn-time is not theft, no matter how much some people in the film industry and "anti-piracy business" claims it is. (as a side note, piracy is robbery om the sea, and nothing else than that).

Borrowing a bike without permission and putting it back before the owner notices it is not theft. Things may be morally wrong even if it's not theft.

Murder and corruption is also not theft.

If I would have steem on the exchanges, I would not expect this holding to be used to support one side in a conflict, I would expect that I should be able to withdraw the funds anytime without problems, and I think the actions done by the exchanges are morally wrong. But it's not theft.

Attempts on redefining the language based on personal opinions on what is wrong and what is right is morally wrong, in my opinion.

Rothschild agrees with you. So, that means you hate Steem. Because Steem was created to go against Rothschild. Murder is the theft of life. Corruption is a fuel that can cause theft as a symptom in some cases. We can talk about money. We can talk about gold. We can talk about what FDR did in the 1930's. You mentioned Popcorn. We can talk about copyright. We can talk about brain phones. Robbery and theft can be similar depending on how a person CHOOSES and DECIDES to define those words. And different people have different meanings and definitions assigned for words. It is extremely complex. And then they try to force people to go to public mainstream education, schools, to be forced to only believe in the definitions that they teach. Your belief in how exchanges can do what you call not theft is pretty scary. In the 1920's, many people tried to withdraw from banks and were unable to. We should be talking about that as that alone destroys your arguments, what you are trying to say. Understanding what happened in the 1920's in America is critical to understanding what is and is not real money backed by gold and fake money not backed by gold and/or other things. People redefine words. Every person does it. Kings would do it historically. We can talk all day about how history was generally written and redefined by the winners and stuff.

Rothschild agrees with you. So, that means you hate Steem.

A rock cannot fly. You cannot fly. Hence, you are a rock.

Also, JP Morgan. He is a big big rock. Also, crony corporatism which is not free market capitalism.

No. They took their customers money and exercised ownership control of it, and still do. The money is still in their possession today, and not in the possession of the rightful owners thereof.

They stole, and kept it. They committed a crime, and worse, had agreed to protect that money from thieves, committing yet another crime. Theft, fraud, and extortion. You might find that acceptable, but I don't.

I don't find it morally acceptable, but I still refuse to call it "theft", and I don't even think it's against the law (though, of course, different laws may apply in different jurisdiction. I expect the successful exchanges to end up in jurisdictions that are "friendly" to the exchanges).

When depositing tokens into an exchange, all you get back is an "IOU". For most exchanges, the tokens won't be held in any special wallet dedicated you as a customer, the tokens ends up in some common wallet owned by the exchange. There may be an expectation that the exchanges don't do "fractional banking" and always keep sufficient funds to deal with the withdrawals should absolutely all the customers simultaneously decide to withdraw - but I don't think the exchanges are legally obliged to keep all the tokens available (again, different jurisdictions, different laws). The consequence of not being able to process withdrawals may be bankruptcy.

A company A may deposit money to the bank, and the same money may be lent out to competitor B. An organization advocating for legalization of drugs may deposit money to the bank, and the same money may be lent out to an organization advocating for a harder "war on drugs". Etc. Most people would deem it acceptable.

Overbookings are also normal. Airline companies expects some cancellations and may throw out passengers from the plane if needed. It's comparable, one may argue that the customer "owns" a seat on that particular flight. It's totally unacceptable to get plans and connections ruined as one is thrown out from the plane, but it's still not "theft", it's not illegal, and in general overbookings are deemed acceptable as the alternative would be to fly with empty seats.

Internet providers do a lot of overbooking - hundreds of customers may promised 50 Mbps of downstream capacity, but they are sharing a 5 Gbps line. One may argue that I've paid for 50 Mbps of capacity and hence the ISP should have 50 Mbps of capacity reserved and ready for me, but ... it's not theft if my bandwidth temporarily falls down to 5 Mbps due to upstream capacity issues.

One notable exception - in the linux kernel, the nomenclature is indeed "CPU theft" when one virtual machine does not get the CPU share it's being promised due to overbooking.

On a related note, it's absolutely not "theft" to watch a movie that one haven't paid for, and "piracy" is robbery on the sea and nothing except for that. I'd also argue that "hacking" is to find novel though not necessarily elegant ways to solve problems, often involving using things in completely different ways than what they were intended for, but that's probably a lost battle. It's a general problem that people are twisting language to suit their agendas. That's a misappropriation ... though I wouldn't go as far as calling it "theft of words" :-)

Well, if I take your money from you, you're going to bitch. If anyone takes your money from you you're going to bitch. That's because it's your money and they took it from you.

It's also why I don't use banks or exchanges. Because they're thieves.

When theft is legal, government is a crime.

The real problem is not your keys, not your crypto. I have learned that lesson the hard way. Now Binance customers have too. Bet Binance loses customers.

Perhaps a majority of binance customers doesn't know or care what's going on. They will bitch if and only if they try to withdraw Steem and can't because Binance is lacking the liquidity to do so. Just like ordinary people won't bitch that the bank is lending their savings to other parties (but will bitch if the bank is unable to fullfil it's obligations), airline passenges won't bitch if the flight is overcommited (but will bitch if it's actually overbooked and they are the unlucky ones that won't be allowed on the flight), etc.

Finally i can read an objective post about the happenings....

Too much "haha" made this mess here first possible. So please do more "haha" till Justin makes his next move and everyone can be pissed off again.

I agree with your conclusion

Justin sun make a big hipe just buying steem inc, but failed to won steemians hearts just try to rule over his foolish few steps, now he try to back steem old regulation, hope everything will be fine with in future!

$trdo

i don't downvote often and not that my downvote means anything, but even you probably want to be neutral, you skipped some facts and ignored them when presented, so this should not be in trending.

The fact you skipped is constant official Tron Foundation posts on social media (also one exchange that is owned by Justin) that were writing about swapping Steem coin for Tron token, and migrating Steem blockchain to Tron blockchain. If they did that it is the end of Steem blockchain so you can say it is an imminent threat. Would exchanges get involved to stop that?

In witnesses talk with Roy (tron representative) 2 days ago, One of the witnesses that contacted Roy before stated that he tried to contact him and Justin for 10 days and was ignored. Roy acknowledged that he got that messages but he missed them as he gets a lot of messages. He said he seen them later, when the soft fork was implemented. (it is a shitty excuse)

The initial plan for tron was exactly what they stated publicly on their social media, but they had no idea what they bought. Maybe the plan changed later but their social media was not showing that.

Decentralising by giving power to One man is an interesting idea of decentralisation. maybe i don't understand the definition of this word as english is my 3. language.

Are these protest votes then? You seem to be voting for at least 4 of their faux witnesses.

Screen Shot 2020-03-07 at 16.45.43.png

Obviously you can vote for anyone you want, that's up to you, but I hear these are all running on the same server. That's not really what you want for Steem is it?

Finally someone on point!
Justin Sun only had 20% , thats not a majority. That makes him a big whale!
It was not necessary to freeze( hack) his account.
Can someone explain why the witnesses claim the Over 12 million dollars of suns new legal property really belonged to the blockchain development and not have any legal documents to prove it.
Also did blocktrades use his his customers funds for voting?
Also can anyone estimate the amount of stake the voting bot accounts control ? Also their influence with the witnesses?
This is looking more like the witnesses where more worried about their own personnel influence. They took out a big whale to protect their own whales.
If you where Justin SUn and this happen to you would you act any different?
I agree with Justin sun that the protection of your account is #1 .
The witnesses destroyed that, and cant even back it up!

Also the witnesses were able to regain control from justin Sun and the exchanges which proves his 20% had influence but not control. He was never a threat. The witnesses feared Justins influence, the new whale on the block. The community was never allowed to see and decide what justin was all about. He was attacked before any of the community could even see for themselves.

Point 0 is missing: Right after the takeover JS/Tron threatened the whole chain with a migration of Steem + DApps (which he doesnt own) to migrate to Tron and doing a one-sided token swap. This caused a lot of irritations and fear in the community and led to the whole fiasco in which we are right now. Source: https://steempeak.com/steem/@aggroed/justin-sun-tweeted-again-is-it-time-to-panic-is-it-time-to-celebrate

The worst part of it: This so called "Soft Fork" revealed "features" of this "decentralised" blockchain that gave me the creeps.
If a hand full of people are able to freeze stake the governments and/or secret services are also able to do this (or force them to do). It should be not possible by design.
That's NOT how it was supposed to work....
(well, for posting cat-pictures this should be fine)

Come on, two wrongs don't make a right. Even if you consider what the consensual witnesses did to protect our community was 'wrong', what Justin Sun did was definitely indefensible.

Posted using Partiko Android

So you mean?:
You slap your wife, she goes to the police to report your despicable behavior.
She gets completely destroyed by the community because she protects what she owns.
Great vision

No, he means, you slap your wife and she shoots you for it and goes to prison because of it.

Yes. What others do to you are always a lot worse then what you do to others, get that. #notreally

Using and freezing the funds of 1000 of users it worse than freezing the funds of 1 ninjamined user that is threatening to wipe the blockchain.

Now this...
You slap a dude in the bar because you think he is going to fuck your wife. (He just tells her she is beautiful actually) He is black belt ninja and slaps you back twice as hard. Now go cry that you got attacked. No logic in these statements, whatsoever.

But in this case, the dude told yesterday my buddies wife that he found her beautiful and then actually fucked her.

On the next day he told my wife that he found her beautiful. I don't want to jump to conclusions but things seem pretty obvious don't they?

In your case: He found out you fucked his wife after they got married for a week. He, clearly, doesn't take that shit and fucks your wife. Anal

This situation does not apply. When he bought STEEM Sun knew what rules are and what kind of governance STEEM has, but he thought he's going to trample us easily. This was never intended to end up nice.

more like, your wife waves a gun for 10 days talking that she will kill you, after 10 days you forcefully take her gun from her. she goes to the police and says you used force to take here gun. Police gives here new gun and they together go to your house and shoot you.

Yeah man, I can go on for hours and days straight. You don't have to share my opinion, I don't have to share yours. Lol but if you mean that 1 tweet and 1 post is threatening, you should walk a day with me. I can only assume you never been in business. (assumptions hmm, should I?)
I do acknowledge the lack of communication though. You are right.

i seen at least 4 post on different official tron foundation accounts in 10 days. Also a deleted post of poloniex exchange.

If you mean mafia business, never. if you mean business, private accounting company with around 80 clients (companies)

there is no need for us to agree to be able to talk. there is interesting quote from terry pratchett about that “The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.”

I am shocked that you are voting for this guy! It seems to me that you don't understand the context at all.

Exchanges had no idea that sun powered up their stake. CZ from binance thought it was just a normal hardfork that he should support.
First Ned screwed over Sun by not disclosing all the details. Then Sun screwed over the exchanges. He lied to his friend CZ and other exchanges as well.

Our witnesses did a temporary safety freeze because they were for 9 days trying to reach out to tron team without any response.

@tipu curate


A huge hug from @amico! 🤗

!trdo

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Excellent post!
I like the matter explained neutrally. Lovely........

Dear @steemchiller I appreciate your efforts in order to release the tensions here but, please, do not forget to add in the chronology of the events how Justin announced important points to take into account as Token-swap or migration of Steem DApps to the tron ecosystem.
The post you wrote is good but doesn’t include all the important points.
I agree with you that the softfork was deployed without asking the community neither at that is also bad, but, tell me, how would you handle a similar situation if the questions from important steem stakeholders are unable to be answered by Justin and he keeps announcing bad messages about a steem migration?

COMMUNICATION by one side is failing continuously and mainly on TRON’s side.

Thank you for the info, i was not not uptodate with the recent events on steemit.

I don't know all facts. And I believe nobody does.
From my liberal point of view two actions never should have happened:

First, freezing anybody's assets.
Second, taking and using foreign assets for any purpose.

These two points are strongly against the law of property.
Blockchain should always always always guarantee its inviolablity!

I wish so much we could overcome together this turmoil!
Lets come to a win-win agreement between the witnesses and Justin and bring this platform and the value of steem forward.

While not completely neutral. I find this at least moderate. Far to many vicious and unnecessary voices coming out of the woodworks. This thing has released a troll nature.... now many people cant see past the pitchforks.

1º It all started when Tron and Justin spread information about Swap Token.
2º Witness with fear that happen and Justin try destroy the blockchain for that tried protect the BlockChain with 22.2 soft-fork temporary!
3º Some peoples took advantage of the situation and started to discuss about wipe Steemit Stake or something like that...
4º Justin knew than if he does nothing he would lose the stake, he then decided take action with Exchanges and took the 20 witness spots
5º The Devs decide don't go against the community and resigned!
6º The witness removed the 22.2 soft-fork temporary.

But think on the positive side, steem gained visibility on several sites and some channels on youtube.
And the community got more strong!

Good article. Thank you
$trdo

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Your reading of 'Facts" are half baked and shrewdly written to take a side and is not totally neutral. Please refrain from creating more FUD as we need to get over this with a cool head.
But decentralization, stays!

You nailed it on the head @steemchiller

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This post is insane, you miss a lot of details in your breakdown of the situation.

You also fail to realize that exchanges have no right to use the STEEM they are holding for traders.

of course. But so it is totally fine to freeze other people wallets as long as they are not able to "un-freeze" with own stake?

I never said I agree with freezing anyone's assets. In fact, I believe the Steem community should cultivate a strong culture of saying if you use a coercive softfork we'll remove your witness forever.

But if someone tries to defend the exchanges voting with STEEM that does not belong to them, well, they can go fuck themselves. That is not okay, ever.

Of course this is not OK but it was a reaction to another quite stupid action that happend without inform the community.
I guess we also had become completely crazy when realizing someone frozen the wallet I have the key for.
In fact all this shit reveals quite interesting features of this "decentralized blockchain". Who the hell needs a blockchain that:

  • allows a hand full of guys to freeze wallets?
  • allows another guy to take it over?

We using blockchain to exactly prevent this. To give 100% control of assets to the holder of the secret key.
So STEEM is a fail by design which is worst discovery now....

Hey, I've always hated DPoS and openly shared my view that Steem is overly centralized. People said DPoS was a bad idea, but all the people on Steem, EOS and TRON never listened, just kept talking about "scalability" the whole time.

Now people are figuring it out, finally. DPoS got corrupted on EOS, TRON and now Steem too. DPoS sucks, its no more decentralized than your average board of directors in a corporation.

How can we fix Steem though now that everyone realize this sucks?

  1. increase the total amount of consensus witnesses by way more than 21, maybe 63.

  2. Then limit voting options from 30 votes to 5 votes.

  3. Next, implement witness staking and penalize witnesses when they don't reach accurate consensus.

Alternatively, just wait for ETH2 to come out and then copy their POS system, because its going to be the most bad ass shit in the market once its finished.

Have you forgotten a part where the exchanges should not participate in his sham because what they have done is illegal???
And the part where it says that blockchain consensus is coded rule of engagement and witnesses do not need to approve transaction?

Short memory here, blame it on weed. I love to blame it on others and don't like to take responsibility for my own actions. I didn't do anything and feel I am absolutely the victim here. And then I woke up.

STEEM has an elected governance. Try to remember that.

Yes, elected by Dpos. Not so democratic but I am not going to cry over this. This I knew when I came 2.5 years ago.

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I love Steemworld and I think this alone is worth supporting you - no matter the quality of what you write. But with this post I disagree so much, that I even downvoted it...

Thank you for the nice writeup.

Thanks for this post. I think I learnt something new today.

By ignoring prior acts, relevant statements of Sun, and other data, using pejorative language, and rank insinuation, you have completely mischaracterized these events.

"The exchanges did their best to help keeping Steem decentralized..."

By stealing their customers funds, using them to govern the Steem blockchain instantly, and handing that power to a single entity. No. What they did was utterly centralize Steem.

You are either abysmally ignorant of the meaning of the term decentralized, or a liar.

Thanks!

Congratulations, you have found a comment that is not a spam!

The fact is Steem witnesses tried to maintain centralization on Steem, Justin Sun and Tron said no no no bad little invalid witnesses. I am coming in and I know a lot more than you!

Knowing things? I would call believing breastfeeded assumptions not reaaaaallyyy knowing things..

20 people voted by community centralised the network and than Justin cames with his 20 bots (and friends exchanges) and decentralised it by making him only one who makes decisions. I need to check the dictionary to see what decentralisation means

The Steem "community" was centralized.

Less so than Sun made it.

It definitely says something when you question the witnesses on why the need to freeze Justin Suns accounts, you get downvoted by bots and put on Blacklists . Im 100% behind Justin now because we have nothing to loose. THe witnesses have centralized with whales, voting bots, and markymarks facist black list. Im proof. I just asked questions. Boom! reputation negative, comments hidden, black list. Wow? THis is free speech? Its time the community speak directly with Justin sun and hear him out. THe community support is based on censorship. I witnessed it first hand .

@themarkymark I see your upvote. Do you agree with all of this? Do you agree with this:

The exchanges did their best to help keeping Steem decentralized and this could only be done with such a drastic action

frozen wallets are not exactly "decentralized"

Neither is Tron. Go there. I'm sure your obsequity and pandering will be welcome.

of course it isn't
Fail by design?

The point I'm making, which you intentionally fail to grasp, is that the founder's stake isn't just stake. The reasons it is different are the reasons it was prevented from exercising governance, and why preventing that stake from exercising governance is exactly decentralization, contrary to your deceptive assertion.

Sycophantic coprophagists like you belong on Tron. Pander to Sun there.

the only point is "who owns the key of that wallet". If this is just a question of definition and decision of witnesses and supposed to be state of the art - yeah, maybe I belong somewhere else (have no idea if exactly "tron" guarantees access to the owner of the keys ONLY).
If not this is just a fail by design.

If nothing more than possession matters, then society is irrelevant and the policy of lions and wildebeests is law.

The breathtaking ignorance of centuries of tradition and established case law you propose is contrary to any civilization above the law of brute force, and has no place in civilized society. Liens and obligations have been acknowledged to place limits on stake since the invention of money.

Ignoring this doesn't make it go away.

@mmmmkkkk311 is attempting to use his flags to intimidate Steemians into abandoning their support for @steembasicincome.


He baselessly claims it is a "ponzi scheme" which just shows that either he doesn't understand how it works or (more likely) he just doesn't understand what a ponzi scheme even is! And the blatant hypocrisy in him trying to fight "vote selling" when that is exactly what he did with his bidbot! As as bidbot owner with over a dozen alt accounts he is in no place to judge what is right or wrong here on Steem. Now he is mad that his scam has ended. So like an upset child, he has decided to take out his anger (caused only by his own failures) on other innocent people. Making him nothing more than a big bully!

MK admits to running a bidbot

Actual account who was "wrecked by @mmmmkkkk311 (for holding sbi shares)"

bully.png

I am here to counter @mmmmkkkk311's bullying. I will upvote every post/comment that he downvotes. You can support my anti bullying upvotes by delegating (links below) Steem Power to @ilovemk311. And you can help keep this message visible by upvoting this comment or by purchasing SBI shares for @mk311isabully which will help to counter the downvotes that @mmmmkkkk311 will surely send my way. Which I highly encourage him to do as the more downvoting power he wastes on me the less he can use to downvote the real content creators here on Steem that would otherwise become his victims!

Choose a delegation amount

5 | 10 | 20 | 50 | 100 | 500 | 1000

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I ask YOU my fellow Steemians to help me take a stand for our Steem community.

With this jerk bullying innocent people we are seeing many great content creators leave due to the drama and negativity that @mmmmkkkk311's downvote campaign brings to the blockchain. While he claims he is trying to defend his investment he is actually unwittingly destroying it.

SBI is an initiative that has done nothing but help promote onboarding and community building here on the Steem blockchain. Let us not turn our back on it out of fear for getting downvoted. Instead lets stand up for this great initiative that has helped so many people and helped the Steem community to grow and thrive!

Thank you.

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