Playing Devil's Advocate: Why Steem HF23 is NOT THEFT!

in #steem11 days ago


Our good friend @apshamilton has given use some free legal advice recently suggesting that the actions Justin Sun is partaking in qualify as illegal theft of funds. We are all on the same page here pretty much based on one defining 'fact':

Importantly, HF23, did not actually fork the Steem blockchain into two separate chains, it simply changed the operating code of the existing Steem blockchain.

So because Hive was an 'Airdrop' it is not theft, but because Steem 'changed the code'... it is theft. I hope you guys can see at this point that 'airdrop' and 'changed the code' are exactly the same thing. If we win a court case against Steem for theft, we are setting a dangerous legal precedent that can later be used against us and any other fork that modifies distribution of funds.

The first time I ever spoke in Discord with the Hive community we weren't even Hive yet. It was right before the fork and we were still trying to figure out what to do; not even knowing a fork was in the works.


I pitched my plan of 'SCORCHED EARTH".

I wanted to destroy all the stake that was attacking us. I won't say I was laughed out the room because that's not what happened, but essentially my words had zero support from the group I was talking to. I chortled when Hive got created, because pretty much everything I said happened and no one even questioned it.


Importantly, HF23, did not actually fork the Steem blockchain into two separate chains, it simply changed the operating code of the existing Steem blockchain.

This is inherently false, and the foundation of our flawed argument. Every code change to a blockchain is a fork. Two separate chains were created, by definition. Just because no one is running the old chain doesn't mean it doesn't exist. This is open-source code, and no one is being forced to run mystery code. Anyone can run the code they chose.

If the Steem witnesses had set up some sockpuppets to keep running HF22, and then they changed the name of Steem to something else, would you still think it was theft? They could have easily done that. Nothing would be different.

"See, we didn't steal your coins; your coins are right there on HF22."

Of course the value of those coins would be zero because they would have no connection to the exchanges and no one would be looking to buy them or develop that fork; zero liquidity.

If we "prove" that Steem stole coins, then we also prove that Hive stole coins. Is it really worth it to set this precedence for the entire cryptoshpere just to try and fuck over Justin Sun when we already won this fight? That's just greedy hubris and revenge-based action.

Broken Record

How many times do I have to say this?


You don't go asking another country to fix your country's governance, do you? If the United States government (NSA) seized money from a bank account because that money threatened their very existence, do you really think someone can take them to court (controlled by USA) and win because "this is theft"? Seriously, this logic we are using is a joke.

This logic we are using is the opposite of the spirit of crypto; asking another governance structure to take control and handle business; the same corrupt governance structures we were trying to get away from in the first place.

Make no mistake:

Justin Sun owns Steem. That mother fucker bought our country! Unbelievable! He forced us to rebuild our home with a different distribution. This was not theft. Justin Sun rebuilt Steem with a different distribution. This is also NOT THEFT. If you prove it is theft with trickery now, that precedence is going to be used against us and every other modified-distro fork in the future. NOT SMART.

The real power of crypto.

The real power of crypto is obviously in decentralization. When something is decentralized and borderless, it CAN'T be regulated by another government. This is what makes it so powerful.


What I'm getting at here is that if we prove what Justin Sun did is theft, then we also prove that what Hive did is theft, but theoretically, if Hive is decentralized enough, it doesn't matter and we will be immune to retribution.

What Justin Sun has done might not be theft, but it is most definitely security fraud. He is in control of a security in a centralized manner (definition of security) and he is doing illegal things with it. Because Justin Sun is not a decentralized entity, he will be brought down for his crimes, of that I am sure of.


We just need to be aware of the risks. Hive was not an airdrop. It was a fork with a new distribution. Steem HF23 was the same thing: a fork with a new distribution. To prove one is theft is to prove the other. It doesn't matter if it is one person or 20 people making this decision. The theft logic is exactly the same.

If we want to continue down this path (I think we all do) we need to realize that if our decentralization isn't strong enough and witnesses start getting fucked by the long dick of the law, we are in serious trouble. To assume that we can convict Justin Sun and receive zero blowback ourselves could result in dire consequences. We should not allow ourselves to fall victim to this hubris.


We already won!
Is it really worth twisting the knife?

Yes! Duh! What could possibly go wrong?!



I would agree with the majority of the above. It would be better to move forward and focus on other things, for both 'sides'.
I would not call any measure criminal is the only part I can't directly support.
From the first action of HF 22 freezing account access to funds , the gloves were taken off and all was made 'fair play'.
This is just my humble opinion.

I guarantee you this is securities fraud by a centralized entity (Steemit Inc).
The SEC is going to have a field day.
I'm just having a bit of fun stirring the hornets nest.

I appreciate having fun. I have tried my best to remain neutral and gather as much facts as possible. I am over it.

Everytime I see someone who justified tampering with Justin's stake screaming theft, I roll my eyes.

I also laugh at the Anarchy group calling the police, posting legal opinions and talking law suits.

Fact is you shouldn't touch anyone's take because it is wrong.

That's it.

Hive is trading higher than Steem was before Justin. Steem is trading higher than Steem was before Justin.

I'm so over it.

This is by far the best explanation I have heard. Great to see someone stating the facts without emotions in play. I am also guilty of letting my emotions take hold. But hen it comes to crypto I don’t know shit! Thanks

airdrop and changing the code is not same. People who were left out of hive still had their steem tokens.

Whereas changing code to forcefully take away someone bought with fiat is robbery.

As already stated in the OP:

The people who had there tokens taken in HF23 still have their tokens in HF22.
See what I did there?
There was no airdrop; there were only forks.

its still the same chain. Let them change the chain and then your logic will be fine.

What about the fact that person had already cast that stake aside and printed a new copy.

Difference lays in the fact that you didnt invest money for the Hive airdrop, you did for your steem stake...

  • airdrop exclusion = No theft since you didnt lose any money you invested

  • seizing of stake = theft since they are losing money they pay for those tokens.