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in #steem7 years ago (edited)

Is steem too good to be true?




A few, since before steem was even something real, have sought to discredit the idea and yell scam, or "sorry, but somebody has to say the truth"





I am all for being skeptical, especially those that promise returns on investment or imply guarantees as such, but it goes equally for those that cast doubt and sow discontent and mistrust, that manipulate and lie, and just as I would be inquisitive of the ones making claims of guaranteed returns, the same critical thoughts will extend to the doom and gloom, this is a scam crowd.

Steem is a ponzi scheme.



Is that true?


To go into detail about the post above would require it's own post, but I invite everyone to click on the article above and take the gist of it, it's 11 months old but it got linked in a post about Steemit Censorship as proof of censorship on steem, along with other posts, which more or less amounted to "censorship, censorship everywhere".

If you have read the post titled Highly Censored and Centralized, it's narrative is that investors will never have as much steem power/influence in the network as Dan or Steem Inc, who can sell it all at once and crash the value of steem, it's a ponzi scheme, it's a scam, BITSHARES!!!

That's a neat story and it's completely possible. How likely?

In retrospect the projects which Dan created, speak of his genius and integrity, not of his lack there of.

It is possible Dan and Ned are just criminal geniuses despite that.



Can Ned(Steemit Inc), or Dan compromise Steem the blockchain?

In context of the token, maybe for a short term, but in respect to the long term such an act would hardly be a bad thing. The platform's value is inherent in the principles and idea behind it, and not derived from the value of its token, the value of its token gets it's value as much from investors as from being tied to the platform.
In context of the platform or the system, such act might cause a fork, yet that will not mean the end of this idea, just a different and hopefully more resilient iteration and two flavors to chose from.

People see the value of decentralized distribution, along with transparency and censorship resilience of the blockchain, and open source development as an organic answer to the question of social media, and that it is paired with a token to encourage content creation and curation only makes it a more valuable service, and because of the role steem the coin plays in such a service, both the coin and the platform will continue to have value. Scarcity makes Steem the only place like Steem.

Steemit Inc, can fork it after they sell every bit of steem they have after powering down, the coin, the token has value not just because people invest capital, but because people recognize the product or service as valuable.

With or without investors people will recognize the resilience of such a platform vs censorship and will always see it as the platform for free speech.

So, if that were the case, steem would still continue on, even after Steemit Inc has left steem.

What is a ponzi scheme in terms of crypto?

The Basics of a Ponzi
A ponzi scheme is one of the few types of fraud which can be run anywhere anytime and can be started off with no investment from the owner. Who says it takes money to make money.

  1. owner sets up a website advertising 300% or more/less ROI to users who invest in their “plans”.
  2. Unfortunate victims deposit in the hope of receiving good returns.
  3. Users get paid with the deposits of others allowing some to say the investments are working
  4. The extra publicity and praise helps rake in more and more Bitcoins
  5. When payouts become unsustainable, owner folds and runs with remaining money
  6. Rinse and repeat at will.

Source

Why Steem cannot be a ponzi scheme




  • Doesn't require investors
  • Open source decentralized, transparent, tried and tested product
  • Can be forked
  • Doesn't promise financial returns



If steem was devalued by the actions of a few large stake holders, that doesn't make steem a scam



The other myth that gets tied into this is the rhetoric of steem censorship is real.


"Make the lie Big, make it simple,
keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it
"
Adolph Hitler




Censorship,

by function, is the systemic suppression of individuals from speaking their mind or otherwise expressing themselves, and it appears similar in those ends with individuals' natural harsh and vocal reactions to people lying, or spreading ignorance and sowing mistrust, hate, indifference or such things.

People have a right to condemn acts such as deceiving people/lying, just as they have a right to expose scams, or rhetoric eroding credibility and communal trust, people have as much as they have a right to question any and all such acts, because they have the right to speak their mind.

Jeering, and booing at lies, or willful ignorance, at arrogance or at a complete lack of manners or sensibility, and anything to that effect, is generally recognized as a proper and healthy response and an expression of freedom of speech. People are free to express themselves in the middle of your grandstanding, and in spite of the silence to it, and as nobody can force people to listen, nobody can make people stay quiet, so in spite of the fact that it's similar in ends with the act of censorship, its inherently freedom of people to voice their opinions or otherwise their mind, and it doesn't stop anyone from voicing their opinions.





Jeering or booing is the equivalent to flagging content as bad/evil/ignorant/stupid/spam, or as low or even of negative value. Flagging isn't censorship, flagging is curating.





For it to be censorship there needs to be a way to demonstrate that you're suppressed and this needs to be systemic.


You cannot cry censorship because one user voted like that for you, and expect to convince people it's actually censorship, because it only displays a lack of understanding over what happened, or it's a blatant lie.

If it's censorship it would suppress your ability to speak your mind, and as the ones that cry censorship have not demonstrated how that is possible, or have any direct evidence it is happening, it's only a baseless claim.

If you cannot demonstrate that you're suppressed as such, and equate it's suppression simply because people curated content as they saw fit, hardly anyone will consider it censorship and plenty will scoff or shake their heads, and rightly so, as flagging isn't censorship, and because it's fundamentally impossible to have censorship on a open source, decentralized transparent network, and not be able to demonstrate clear censorship, it's a fundamentally flawed argument to begin with.

Curating content doesn't equate to being suppressed no matter how similar it is in ends.



In the end, flagging vs censorship is the equivalent of killing for self defense vs sanctioned murder by the state. One is an appropriate response, the other an unjustifiable wrong, just so, curating bad content as low or of no value is an appropriate response and a person's right to self expression, and since censorship requires a central authority it cannot exist on this platform. Again, it's not censorship to curate content as low quality, and it will never be because curation doesn't affect the content's availability or integrity, and doesn't exclude content from the audience.

Free Speech doesn't come with a guarantee of an approving, supportive audience





When people Curate Spam as low quality, they're not beating or abusing people on the internet, they're curating content.

Does this point need a little more reiterating? It's not bullying people, it's curating people's content, and when people resort to spam and threats and lying, it's a normal response for people to curate such abusive content as low quality. Ultimately, it's our right to curate bad content as low quality, just as much it's our right to speak our mind the other way and curate good content as valuable.

So what, am I not bitching and moaning about people crying and moaning over flags by calling them censorship?

Bitching and moaning about flagging while effectively crying curation is censorship, is not the same as exposing the lie that says censorship is flagging.

Crying censorship when you're flagged is lying, or at least amounts to ignorance or stretching the facts (attacking vs getting flagged, which is close to lying, because it is not representing what happened correctly/accurately).

Even though itself, lying is free speech, some believe that bitching and moaning without proof will give their concerns credibility. Nobody has to put up with fear mongering, or spam, or threats or stupidity, instead they can flag it or better, call such bullshit out, nobody has to respect everyone inherently and expecting respect when none was extended will probably bring disappointing expectations. Lying and deceiving equally has consequences, it's free speech but nobody is free of consequences.

Ultimately, there's no guarantee that spreading fear, uncertainty, mistrust, deception will work or will not be challenged, and such acts have unfavorable consequences.


In the end



It's functionally impossible to censor things on the steem blockchain. On top of that, nobody has the power to ban someone from the platform and the power to edit the data on the blockchain is only in the hands of the author's and all changes are recorded and visible, but more importantly nobody can take that power away just as nobody has the power to exclude anyone from contributing.

The most important thing is that anyone who believes it's a scam, or it's centralized and censorship is rampant here, or that they can simply do better, they have better ideas

nobody is stopping them from forking steem or taking the idea and making it better

The effort in that direction would pay off 10x vs fighting the current system

Sort:  

Excellent breakdown/ In the past, I have entertained thoughts wondering if Steemit was too good to be true (ponzi scheme) and even had some friends tell me it was an obvious scam. The main reason I believe in Steemit is because of it's unique use of blockchain technology, the value created by the users, the transparency of the blockchain and that it requires no financial investment to partake. In traditional ponzi schemes, there's always an intitial buy-in. You can choose to invest a monetary amount in Steem/SBD but it's not compulsory, you can simply gain rewards by creating content that's of value to the community.

This is a valuable post and a discussion people shouldn't shy away from. I'm upvoting this post because i find value in it.

Accounts with a lot of vests certainly have the power to affect other people's payouts and this includes affecting them adversely, not just positively and this is how the system was designed the function from the get go. There is no scam or foul play, it's just people using the system as it was intended to be used. There might be some unpleasant or sometimes even unjust consequences, but saying that the system is centralized because of that is unreasonable and in fact unsubstantiated.

If the system was centralized, flag wars between whales wouldn't have been possible and if you look back into the blockchain, you would see that this is something that was indeed happening at some point.

In other words, people voting with their vests that a certain post is shit is not censorship, it's weighted democracy.

Additionally, all the "hidden" posts can be unhidden with a single click for the text and a second click for the images, so arguing that they have been censored is also unsubstantiated.

On top of this, if you think the simple hidden feature of steemit is annoying, one could easily build a competing website on the same blockchain (showing all the same posts and accounts) that would not hide posts because of flags and everything will be visible. Just like you said, even the shittiest posts remain available on the steem blockchain.

I joined steemit because I recognized the resilience of the blockchain and the built in time stamped copyright, proof of work/production and the aspect of perpetuity. All these aspects are very appealing to me. As a musician/composer, the perfect way to save my legacy is to blog it on steemit.
I take nothing away and power up all my rewards, I am all in.
Censorship is a non issue.
Thank you for the fine article, I appreciate your perspective @baah

Steem is not Scam, it is not centralized and will go better. Very good post!

I think Steemit is not scam. About flags, my opinion it should be handled in different way. For example, few people flagged my comment 'we are consciousness that goes beyond body' or something like that. I wasn't insulting anyone, but got flagged. That is bs, if you can't say your opinion it is censorship. I think there should be only flags for insulting etc, everything else is bs.

Bullshit, people don't need to be insulted to curate stuff that they don't believe is curated right, nobody stopped you from expressing your opinion. It's not censorship when people boo, or jeer at your stuff, you learn to deal with that. How does crying censorship every time you disagree with someone's opinion of your work actually deal with anything?

So in your opinion I should automatically flag anyone's comment I disagree with?

You are free to curate content as you see it, in my opinion, if you want to argue it's censorship you'll have to do better than CENSORSHIP IS FLAGS, FLAGS IS CENSORSHIP, because it's not demonstrated how flags stop you or anyone from speaking your mind.

When somone flag your comment, that comment is not visible any more. In that way you can censor any comment you disagree with. You can call it flagging, but it is censorship. If you disagree with comment reply n it with arguments, don't flag like some bitch. Of course I'm not talking about insulting comments, obvious spam etc.

When somone flag your comment, that comment is not visible any more. In that way you can censor any comment you disagree with.

It's called not visible anymore because it's not visible, it's called censorship when it's not available, the content is never censored, it's not visible, but it's still very much so available. There are other platforms that work on the blockchain that don't hide things that have been flagged.

You can call it flagging, but it is censorship.

It's not censorship, because nobody removed the content and nobody can censor. Telling us that the content is not visible and trying to say that is censorship doesn't make it censorship, to demonstrate censorship you have to show that content has been altered or removed, or that people cannot post content. Until then, it's not censorship any more than defending yourself vs an attacker is murder if you kill them.

If you disagree with comment reply n it with arguments

Why, why can't people express themselves by booing, or curating your content as crap?

don't flag like some bitch.

Bitch behavior is expressing your opinion of content with your own stake?

Of course I'm not talking about insulting comments, obvious spam etc.

Yeah, and crap content as well.

You sound like manipulators that want to censor internet. They can always say, it is not censored, some sites are just less visible. In your opinion they are not censoring internet in that way?. Who in the end decides what is crap content? To you some content is crap, but that same content to someone else is great.If you don't like some post, skip it, unfollow.

Just stop having a conversation with this guy. He's one of the biggest idiots on Steem I've come across. He thinks he's a lot smarter than he actually is and will just keep talking and talking and talking without actually making any sense.If he's anything in real life like he is on Steem, it's just a matter of time before someone beats the shit out of him and hopefully he won't be back on Steemit...ever

You can booooo flag and try to make less visible some article which you don't agree on or you can write comment with arguments on it, why you don't disagree with it. Imagine everybody flagging everything what they don't like on Steemit...every post wil be flagged.

You sound like manipulators that want to censor internet.

That's not an argument, that's a jab at my character.

They can always say, it is not censored, some sites are just less visible.

Yeah, seems the trouble is with definition, you believe censorship means curating content as crap, because "who decides what is crap content anyway":

In your opinion they are not censoring internet in that way?

Who's not censoring the internet, are they removing or blocking access to it, then it's censoring the internet, is someone blocking or removing access to content on the blockchain? No, end of discussion.

If you don't like some post, skip it, unfollow.

Or mute, or even flag.

I hope you don't end up with a rep like mine.
:(

Replys don't show up in feeds, posts don't show up in followes feeds or the new feed and people cant even resteem them to make them visable unless they have been upvoted out of transparency and lets not even get into how removing all revenue from someone is a form of censorship.

Whoa, WHOA !!!
Before we get too far off the rails here.... Let's be clear on the actual accepted definition of "censorship".



By all technical definitions, censorship does not mean REMOVAL of content.... and yes, these malicious Whales CAN suppress content based on their own individual opinions (or fears, or resentments, etc.). THEE essence of censorship!
Yes, I opened the door to being attacked by attempting to educate others of the dangers of these malicious accounts' practices.
This is a slippery slope, and I'm a bit confused as to @baah's change of stance on the subject and those abusing the system as well. Perhaps I'm missing something here.... I can't understand how he has gone from calling these people out to defending them. :(

IF @baah creates a post with $40 worth of upvotes only to have a malicious Whale like @craig-grant flag said post simply because it "was too popular and profitable" (sending said value to $0.00) while simultaneously upvoting his own content with a $40 self-upvote.... would @baah still take the stance he has presented to us here? Curious, curious indeed.

I agree but according to him its still not censorship.
Mental gymnastics of a gold level.
:D

By all technical definitions, censorship does not mean REMOVAL of content.... and yes, these malicious Whales CAN suppress content based on their own individual opinions (or fears, or resentments, etc.). THEE essence of censorship!

They cannot suppress you, they cannot suppress content, that is a blatant lie. Curating content is not suppressing content. Can you demonstrate that people can suppress content without stretching the definition of suppress to mean CURATE?

This is a slippery slope, and I'm a bit confused as to @baah's change of stance on the subject and those abusing the system as well. Perhaps I'm missing something here.... I can't understand how he has gone from calling these people out to defending them. :(

In the effort of being correct, I will not call flagging, which otherwise is curating (one of the two aspects of curating), CENSORSHIP. I will call it by what it is, or voting, curating. Censorship needs to be systemic, for it to be HARD, if it's not Hard Censorship/Removal, it's soft, or Suppression. There is no censorship on steem, you can see everything that gets posted and comment on everything, to claim that people can suppress you from commenting when there is effectively no way to do that is bullshit.

IF @baah creates a post with $40 worth of upvotes only to have a malicious Whale like @craig-grant flag said post simply because it "was too popular and profitable" (sending said value to $0.00) while simultaneously upvoting his own content with a $40 self-upvote.... would @baah still take the stance he has presented to us here? Curious, curious indeed.

If someone decides to flag my content, look at my past actions where I was involved with whales flagging me, and you will realize that the only reason I am here is to speak the truth, not to appease people, and not to CARE about what people do with their voting power. When there's an instance where the truth needs to be spoken, like craig self voting, I will speak it, and I think the same here, this instance the truth is that Censorship is not Flagging, Flagging is not Censorship, soft or hard or self.

I would like you to think on this for just a minute....
You've discovered the cure for herpes and decided to publish your findings on steemit (I know, who the bleep would do this instead of publishing in a medical journal etc. ?!? I know, I know... for the sake of discussion, let's just go with it).
You're new here, and get very little reaction the first day. A few upvotes to total about three fiddy.
Enter me, @whale-pharmaceutical; and it just so happens I own one of the patents to a herpes treatment. Naturally my vPower is much higher than yours. After all, I'm a Whale who's been here since near day one and have been investing in it every day for over a year now.
I see your post while trolling the steemit seas.
And I flag it.
Now, though still there, you are not as visible. Your notifications suffer. You get no more upvotes and very few comments. If anyone wants to see your posts they have to select 'reveal' to see it, and who's got time for that (your appearance has been tainted). Technically, you've been suppressed by the action of one person. Me. And the ONLY reason I did it is because I don't want your message getting out.
Can you recover? Yes. Is it the end of the world? No, not as far as I can tell. Does this same content still have the potential to reach the world and do as you intended? Yes. Though theoretically your chances are slim to none, and your best bet would be to purchase another account and try it again (hope for the best, expect the worse).
If it can be used specifically for a purpose to suppress and censor, it's censorship.

@baah is the top douche bag on Steemit. He thinks very highly of himself and likes using his big boy words and giving his big boy thoughts, in hopes of people thinking he's someone important. He's not...he's just a little douche bag

It's a trickle up economy.... where powerful Whales use a combo of flagging and self-upvotinig to basically "curate" potential payouts by taking it from the "poor" and giving it to those already "rich" - suppressing content and destroying Reputations in the process (which also has a direct affect on the value of upvotes one gives AND receives). I suspect most any and all douche-bags who realize this naturally want in on it, wish to be as powerful and influential. Perhaps he is either brown-nosing for their cause because he seeks such power and wealth or he is fearful of them so is trying to appease them. I could be wrong (about @baah, NOT about this being a trickle up economy designed to transfer value from the little fish to the big whales).
Not to say there are not a lot of good people doing good things here. There are. But who would be dumb enough to put real money into this system UNLESS they see the scheme and plan to take advantage of it by joining in on the raping of the poor?
The very definition of "censor" is "to suppress" (not to remove entirely), the White Papers even admit Steemit can censor (though the blockchain data will not). The guy is not living in denial, nor is he stupid; he's playing a game with the intention to gain attention, support (of the malicious Whales), and as much profit as he can. He can use fraud, hacking, or any other tools at his disposal to beat everyone else in the game.... it says so right in the coveted White Papers (I guess local, state, federal, and international laws do not apply to Steem and Steemit - the White Papers apparently gives them immunity).

Well said. Steemit will eventually fail because of this, and I'll be more than happy to lose my 3K investment just to see @craig-grant lose his 300k investment. That guy just stinks of douche bag and I can't wait to see his cocky stupid ass laugh be no more

Your whole premise is self defeating, if you have the gumption to do all that and you stop at the last step, I WILL CONGRATULATE WHOEVER DOES THAT FIRST FLAG! I know, but think of it in terms of multiple dimensions and stuff, somewhere along the line someone has done that in a universe somewhere, and I APPLAUD THEM FOR IT, because if that person stops after their content's visibility was affected, they fail, and if they don't its a non issue. While equally such scenario will require for something to be true, in that affecting visibility of content could ever be something profitable for anyone to do, so as to suppress visibility and quite self defeating in itself, so there is no systemic reason for that to exist, but suppressing visibility is not suppressing content, while in a vague way it influences views, it's really of no concern as the unfortunate reality is we cannot remove flags and hope that people like asshole over here doesn't ruin it for everyone.

Your crying games are because you love the victim card: I hope you don't end up with a rep like mine.

As if you had absolutely no effect in that equation.

Grow the fuck up, make a new account and start again, because it's apparent you failed by being an asshole, making threats, spamming gay porn, or otherwise what you did to end up at that reputation.

Wha Wha people can't see my post as if it wasn't your fault for the place you ended at, is censorship, Wha Wha entitlement over rewards, let's not even get into that.

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It's not Revenue first and foremost, it's Shares of a Reward Pool that are voted on by everyone, and it's not Hope that keeps people from reaching a rep like yours.

No you cannot resteem posts out of curation, it's been curated as crap, probably because it's crap, and will stay crap. Nobody has to put up with your shit, and those consequences are your own making, all the blame and responsibility for the place you are at is on your own shoulders. If you want we can argue this till we're both blue in the face.

Very good analysis. I am optimistic of steemit and its growth. Afterall, if we are not optimistic enough then we can not innovate and grow!

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