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RE: 5 Reasons Why I think the Christian Religion is Man-Made

in #science7 years ago (edited)

I understand where you’re coming from here. I used to be right in there with you on a lot of those points, though I was undecided. Agnostic, rather than atheist, I suppose. The thing is, there are holes in your arguments...

Number 5. Genesis

Ok yes, there are some who take the first 5 or 6 chapters of Genesis as literal truth. I do not count myself among them, and I have long since given up arguing the matter with them. But suppose they are actually right…

Early universe science is a tricky business, and the details are generally spotty. Where did the “bang” come from? After that, how do we explain the temperature discrepancies between the currently observable universe and the models? How do we account for what appears to be continued acceleration of all matter from the point of origin, Ground Zero of the Big Bang? Dark matter? Zero point energy? Inflation theory? Surely a science nerd could speculate about time dilation effects in the early universe as well. Maybe there’s a scientific discovery just around the corner that would agree with the literal interpretation. No, I don’t really believe this, but even if it WAS proven true, how would it change the world we live in? It wouldn’t negate any of the useful knowledge that science has brought us.

And look at what was created on each “day.” Forgetting the Creationist image of the waters the land and the firmament you posted, because it is a product of literalist interpretation, the progression of creation in Genesis is not all that much different than what science says…

There was nothing.
Then there was something, and a lot of it.
Then there were stars and planets, and we’re going to focus on this lump of rock we call Earth.
Dry land appeared where once there was only liquid. (Can you say magma?)
Water became a thing.
Then somehow mud turned into things that became alive and started to grow.
First plants (proto-algae would qualify), then fish and bugs and stuff, and birds and mammals, and finally… people.
People demonstrate certain qualities which are beyond any other species.
The world we observe today is “resting” compared to previous eras, though we realize a short human lifespan is miniscule when compared to the slow processes of geological time.

This whole deal about there being no definitive agreement on who wrote the Pentateuch (the first 5 books of the Bible)? Bah. Humbug! Red Herring! Genesis alone covers a timespan of thousands of years, if time is reckoned literally here. Clearly Moses (who is largely attributed the authorship or the Pentateuch) came along well after Adam & Eve, Noah, Abraham, and all those cats. Obviously it was a compilation. What else could it have been? And the books of the law that follow? I rather doubt that Moses would have sat down and just started writing. Cool reasoning suggests that the laws and regulations were recorded by various “scribes” along the way. In short, regardless of authorship, your argument does nothing to refute the truth of what is taught in the Bible.

Number 4. Original Sin

Well first off, you’re not using the term correctly. Original sin refers to the belief that humans are imperfect creatures. We are born with certain traits which are not conducive to being at peace with other people, the environment, the planet Earth, the universe as a whole, and oh yeah… God. Sin ultimately means “not perfect.” God requires perfection, and if you’re not perfect (hint: you’re not, and neither am I) then you are – how should I say this? – a sinner. We’re born with the problem.

What you are referencing is the idea of the progression of generational sin. What many people (sadly, most Christians even) don’t understand here is that it’s not the punishment that is handed down. It’s the propensity to commit sin. It is… imperfection. And you know what? Science backs that up. What do statistics say about kids who have had a parent in prison? 70% of those kids will end up in prison. What do statistics say about kids who grow up in abusive homes? In alcoholic homes? Kids who were sexually abused? In every case, there is a significant probability that the kid will grow into an adult with the very same problem.

And you have to keep in mind, the literary practices of the time the Pentateuch was written portray God as “causing” certain things to happen, when in modern terms, we would describe the situation as God setting up a system that we work under. A proper understanding of this requires the realization that what God has set up is simply a natural order of things. A simple law of cause and effect. If you do “X” then “Y” happens. If you don’t believe it, just wait and “Z.”

Yeah, that XYZ joke again. Couldn’t help myself.

But the point is that we know if you do something wrong, there will be consequences, and your actions affect other people. They influence other people. And with your kids, that influence is significant. So when the Bible talks about generational sin, it’s ultimately referring to the law of cause and effect with regard to behavior within a family unit.

Now the REALLY neat thing is this: God forgives. All that sin stuff? The laws and all that? Basically it’s God telling us what we are not supposed to do, and what happens if we break the rules. Are you a parent? The Biblical Law is parenting 101 for all of humanity, from The Parent’s perspective. Does a parent not punish a child? Well unfortunately, today a lot of them don’t, and that’s a whole different problem, but good parents correct their children when they are wrong. That’s what Biblical Law is about. And good parents forgive their kids afterward. That’s what God does with us.

AND – people tend to stop before reading the rest of the verses in question. Here’s the REST of the story…

From Exodus 20:5-6
...visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

And please note, “thousands” does refer to thousands of generations, not just thousands of people.

You should probably also look up the verses where God tells humanity to NOT punish one person for another person’s sin. You might have overlooked it before. Wait, I’ll do it for you…

Deuteronomy 24:16
“Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.”

That’s Old Testament, Law of Moses stuff.

And as far as the Curse goes, let me simply refer back to the idea of parenting. While you may be a little bit squeamish about the terminology here, what’s really going on is this: God lays out the rules in advance, tells us what to do and what not to do, and tells us what the consequences will be if we break the rules. In Old Testament literary terminology, the idea of a curse is used, because that idea is deeply intertwined with the concept of punishment.

One might complain that all of humanity is cursed because one man, Adam, committed sin, but honestly it’s all just an extension of the law of generational sin. Adam started the sin problem, and we’ve been passing it down ever since. And this ties right in with…

Number 3. “Man”-made religion.

You are so far off base here, largely because you are unfamiliar with history and ancient cultures. Both Judaism and Christianity elevate the position of women relative to the prevailing cultural norms of the time.

Old Testament:

It was customary for men to be the owners of property and for the sons to inherit said property when the father dies. This was a cultural norm that existed outside of the early Hebrew culture, meaning it did not originate with the Bible. In fact, the Bible records a remarkable instance which set a precedent for women to own property and claim an inheritance. A man named Zelophehad died without leaving a male heir. His daughters petitioned Moses to let them claim the inheritance, and he does exactly that.

Numbers 27:7
“The daughters of Zelophehad are right. You shall give them possession of an inheritance among their father's brothers and transfer the inheritance of their father to them.”

In the book of Judges, we find a woman named Deborah who was one of the judges of Israel. In this context, this means that she was a significant public figure with authority over at least part of the nation of Israel. Groundbreaking, really.

In the book of Joshua, chapter 2, we see a woman – a prostitute, no less – who gives aid to the Israelites. Her name is Rahab, and she and her family are protected from harm when Israel later overthrew her city. Rahab is mentioned by name in the genealogy of Christ himself in Matthew chapter 1.

Two Old Testament books are named for women – Ruth and Esther. Guess who the protagonists of these stories are…? Yep. Women. Proverbs chapter 31 is dedicated entirely to celebrating Godly women.

And let us not forget Mary, the mother of Christ, who is counted as righteous and blessed by every Christian denomination today. Some, namely Catholics, hold her in such high regard that petitions are lifted to her, rather than to Christ himself.

The Apostle Paul also mentions more than a few women who were important in the early church. So no, one cannot say that the Bible is oppressive toward women if one actually reads what the Bible says about women.

OH also… Let’s mention Adam and Eve. Now many humans have mischaracterized the situation of the first sin, laying the blame on Eve. The Bible clearly places the blame on Adam. Punishments for both of them, not Eve alone, were outlined in Genesis. Furthermore, the New Testament reinforces Adam as the first sinner: see Romans 5 and 1st Corinthians 15.

Number 2. The Bible and God

Oh boy. First off Yaweh predates both Zeus and Odin. The earliest reference to Greek religion would be around 1800 BC., with the earliest references to Zeus specifically coming in around 800 BC. Norse mythology has roots as far back as 1700 BC, with confirmed references to Odin coming in no earlier than about 300 BC. Archaeological evidence suggests Abraham would have lived around 1800 BC. Archaeology provides evidence that a cataclysmic flood (yes, we’re talking about Noah) happened around 5000 BC. The oldest inscription of the name of Yahweh comes from an Egyptian temple built around 1400 BC. Whether referencing the religion in general or the name of the specific deities, the Judeo-Christian tradition is older.

Next, your list of “imperfections” is full of some of the most misunderstood concepts about God. Let me just hit the high points here…

“Where are you” – it was a rhetorical question intended to make Adam examine not his geographical location, but his spiritual situation after committing the first sin.

All of the emotions you listed which we share with God are the ways in which we resemble Him, not the other way around. Take note of the many instances that God tells us that He is not like us, and that His thoughts are not our thoughts, His ways are not our ways, and that His thoughts are high above our own.

By the way, jealousy as it pertains to God is not the same as the modern human understanding of the word. In this context, jealousy refers to protecting what rightfully is yours. Our current definition of jealousy in modern usage is an ugly, twisted, angry, paranoid caricature of Godly jealousy.

God alone is worthy of worship.

Sacrifices are made in atonement for sin.

God’s defeat of “evil” was not limited to our concept of time.

He gave us free will, and we choose to do wrong things. Evil is not actually a thing unto itself. Much like the word sin, it refers to being “not” something. In this case, it is not “good.”

Any of the attributes you ascribe to God which seem human-like, you have observed in reverse. As God created us in His image, it is to be expected that we share some – but not all – of His characteristics.

Number 1. The Vatican

Actually, I’m not going to argue against you on this one, except to say that Catholicism does not represent Christianity itself. Any failings found within any denomination (Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, whatever) are the faults of humans. The failing is not in the teachings of Christianity, but in the hearts of humanity.

Best of luck to you, and God bless you.

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Thanks for explaining it well @bigdub 😊 God bless you and @neglect☺ May the Lord lend us His wisdom that we might see the grace which He laid on the cross.

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