Watch Out! Massive Losses Seen on Upvote Bots
I've been watching the Steem Bot Tracker over the last week and a half and it's quite distressing to see how many people are losing money to the bots. I took a deeper look over the last 24 hours and things have gotten a lot worse!
I thought that the bots were the main problem, but I may have been wrong. They may just be the enablers.
Problem - bidders are losing money
It's not unusual to see people placing bids in the last few seconds before a bot makes an upvote. This reduces the return on investment (ROI) for everyone who's made a bid and can even result in everyone making a loss.
I wanted to see if this was the only reason why people were making losing bids or if they simply weren't aware that that they were about to make a big loss.
Here's a screenshot that I took last night of all of the bids on @booster. If you look at the times on the background, you'll see that there was still another 2 hours and 23 minutes left before bidding closed. Even at this very early stage, bidding was massively oversubscribed, giving an 87% loss after curation.
In a post I made a couple of days ago, I suggested that the bots could simply reject any further bidding at this point and return the money to their customers rather than seeing them lose out. Wouldn't that be fair?
Unfortunately, people continued to make bids, even though they were guaranteed to make huge losses. You can click on this link to see the evidence (there are 5 screenshots). In the end, everyone made an 88.78% loss after curation.
It didn't stop there!
Once the bot made the upvote, new bids came in for the next round and the whole disaster repeated itself!
With 2 hours remaining, bidders were already guaranteed a loss of 89.58% after curation. Click here for the screenshots. As you can see from the image below, I checked again 34 minutes later and losses of 91.06% after curation were guaranteed.
When I woke up this morning, I checked the current and last rounds of bidding for @booster and it was the same old story.
Are the bidders scamming?
To their credit, @booster is one of the bots that actually gives refunds for invalid bids. So I wanted to see if any of the big bidders were deliberately making invalid bids. Why would they do that? Well, I wanted to see if the big bids were going to get refunded, leaving the smaller bids to collect more of the 'reward pool' (if you can call it that). My hypothesis was that it may be possible that they could have been using a second account to make a much smaller bid which would then get a proper upvote after scaring their rivals away from bidding.
It didn't appear as though anyone was doing that with the posts that had been submitted.
However, the quality of the posts was sometimes atrocious! Yuck!
Suspicious Bids
I became suspicious when I saw people making huge bids on other people's posts, such as a bid of 170 SBD from arnobtogor25 for this junk post by jakiasultana. Then I saw that they did exactly the same thing with this post and this post by mrpabel, as well as another by jakiasultana.
Again, are the bidders scamming?
I took a look at the blog of jakiasultana and it was full of junk. Ouch - our poor blockchain! I then checked out their wallet and saw that they'd made some transfers to sumayia. So, I had a look at sumayia's wallet and saw this...
Hmm, multiple invalid bids to @booster and a transfer of 141 SBD to arnobtogor25. I decided to take a look at arnobtogor25's blog - multiple single image posts per day, usually upvoted by antor (and others) before being upvoted by bots on day 6.
arnobtogor25 made a bid of 170 SBD on a junk post by jakiasultana who made a transfer to sumaiya who made a transfer to arnobtogor25. Weird!
Do I think there's a scam here? Well, arnobtogor25 made a massive loss on a valid bid on @booster, so I think that counts as evidence that those involved may simply be victims of the bots not protecting their customers.
Other Bots
I took a few more screenshots of people making losses on @voter, @lovejuice and a particularly heavy loss of 95.67% on @msp-bidbot.
Final Thoughts
The more I look into the world of upvote bots, the worse it gets! I only took a closer look because I could see an unfair situation where people were losing money because they were directing SBD on something which doesn't guarantee a net profit. I've only scratched the surface, but I think that there's enough evidence to show that Steemian's aren't always safe.
If you want upvotes because you aren't yet well known enough to have a decent number of people see your posts, stick with @minnowsupport or one of the services that actually checks to see if your work is of good enough quality (i.e. not worthless junk), such as @qurator, @humanbot or @thehumanbot.
Remember, harm no one!
Great post @penston. I hear the other side of this coin all the time as well - I know for a fact that many users are earning large profits doing similar things as far as putting in a large SBD bid on a post close to payout but timing it out to where they are guaranteed a large % vote and a good return. I think even if you can realize a profit, using paid vote services is detrimental to the long term health of the platform. And if the average user is actually losing money on paid vote services then this entire shit show is even worse than I thought. New users come on board and are told (by MANY people) that the only way to get your posts seen is to pay for votes. Then they do so and actually lose money. Can you imagine a worse introduction to a platform than to be told you have to pay money to make money, so you actually pay money and up LOSING money? This is not going to get people hooked on Steem, to put it mildly.
One point of clarification - while @humanbot (and @r-bot, my other curation account) do upvote quality undervalued posts, there is no channel for an author to call for these upvotes for their own post. You can submit links to posts by other authors in the comments to my @humanbot Curator Incubator post. @sanmi, on the other hand, and bless his heart, DOES allow for self promotion and you can drop links to your own posts for his review at the @thehumanbot blog.
I know - @thehumanbot and @humanbot are confusingly similar in names - it was a coincidence, but our mission statements are complementary and we have joined forces (we refer to each other as "step-brothers" because we have different dads - I am @humanbot's "dad" and @sanmi is @thehumanbot's "dad").
Cheers - Carl
Interesting, I haven't noticed new peopl are being told that paying for votes is good for getting attention.
Thank you for starting humanbot btw bro.
That's one of the things that bot admins I've spoken to have used to justify what they're doing. They say that getting the big upvotes will get you into the Hot section, which they see as being valuable promotion.
Is being Hot really as big of a deal for getting followers and more upvotes as they make it out to be?
Good to hear from you, Carl!
I think my next post will be about cyborgs ('bots' who make vetted upvotes).
cool that should be interesting. Just to be clear, the only thing "bot" about @humanbot and @r-bot is in the name. Both accounts are 100% manual curation operations.
I have a feeling that I saw something which said that the authors of posts that are being submitted to @humanbot should have a reputation at or below 55. Is that true or am I getting it mixed up with the 45 or lower rep requirement of @thehumanbot?
there is no REP requirement or any other requirement except that it not be self promotion as far as dropping links off at @humanbot. You may have been confusing it with @thehumanbot, which as I mentioned, is perfectly understandable. The names are confusingly similar
That's one of the things that bot admins I've spoken to have used to justify what they're doing. They say that getting the big upvotes will get you into the Hot section, which they see as being valuable promotion.
Is being Hot really as big of a deal for getting followers and more upvotes as they make it out to be?
I wouldn't call this a scam - after all most of them boots make their rules public and some gambling is always involved when buying upvotes. Still it's very informative post.
It would take a lot more work to see if some of the bidders are scamming. It's a complaint that I've heard from one of the bot admins.
Great job outlining and supporting your observations, @penston! This whole issue of paid upvote services needs to be evaluated before jumping in. I have only tried one service, @bumper. It has been a very rewarding upvote service for me. I think that is because it is a manual upvote service run by a real human who cares about the little guy, and who is minding the voting power of the service to deliver what he is promising. He's building a legit service with standards for upvoting, and refunding when the vote can't be completed before payout. Other than @bumper I have personally felt a feeling in my gut that told me to not bother with it. Now I see why.
I've upvoted and resteemed this article, and I'm following you now, too. I found the link for it in The Steem Engine Discord Server.
Cheers!
@mitneb
I've heard of @bumper but didn't see information about what made it worthwhile. If it's as you described, then I can see how it could be good. Perhaps the admin could tell us a little more here?
@penston i am not sure if you meant us with "Admin". But i could inform a bit about us. First of thanks @mitneb for your great help and support to our service :)
Yes we are indeed not a bot but a service. People can send 0.1 to 0.5 SBD to us and we will cast a vote of 3 times the value they send us. We are aiming to do higher returns later but we have to build our SP up a bit for that. Also what @mitneb said about refunding. We can only do +/- 50 upvotes a day and at the moment i have 92 in queue waiting for an upvote. So it can take up to a few days before the vote is casted. If we were unable to vote before the 6 day marker we will refund the user.
Also if the blog contains plagiarism and or is of very bad quality we will not cast a vote and return the money to the sender. We want to support the bloggers that put effort in their work. But we also don't want to become the next upvote service that stands in the way of Steemit becomming a better platform.
I agree with this post also.. Those bidding bots you lose a lot on and i would advice no one to use them. Those are only enriching the right and not helping the poor sort of speak.
We with @bumper will do this different as indeed we care about the little peeps around here..
I am basically one myself ^^ I just receive a lot of support of the community as i don't go ass deep in all these wars and keep focusing what really matters. Helping each other to grow and build a better future.. No one is able to do it alone ;)
Hope it helped @penston. Wishing you and everyone here a happy 2018 ';)
I like what you’re saying, @bumper. It sounds like you’re doing things in a way that’s fair. Your approach to treating your customers and not rewarding junk content is the right one.
The treatment is most of the time more important then the service itself @penston.
That is one hell of a money trail to be chasing around to figure out. I had looked into the bots a few months ago and decided that it wasn't for me, glad that I did. Thanks for showing just how much a person can stand to lose if they are using some of these "services", which is an interesting term to use when talking about these bots. On the ranch our bulls serviced the cows, the same thing may be going on in here.
I don't have much of a problem if people are treated fairly. That doesn't appear to be the highest priority for some people, however.
Love this sort of content.
Misinformation and bot gamification coming together to create one big mess!
BTW, please do not put the images as a slideshow. It was annoying having to constantly click "Back" when the image switched before I was done with it.
Of course, even with the bots that give exactly 100% back, only the bot-maker actually "wins", the bidder gains visibility, but not money.
It's the only time I've ever used the slideshow feature - there were just too many images to include in the main post.
Glad you liked the content. I have more stuff that's similar.
I'd recommend linking to an imgur album :)
This already has been investigated by @smartsteem and it seems like those guys who send in more SBD than the bot gives out are abusing "front runners". Essentially, some upvote bots have this group of people who would upvote the post before the bot itself upvotes. These "front runners" for that particular bot has a combined vote of $50 and they would vote based of detection SBD transfer to the bot. So the step to abuse it is pretty simple:
The negative return is actually not real since the bot did not vote, therefore its voting power remains untouched. It's because Yabapmatt has to do a history grab on the blockchain instead of using a provided API from the bot. This creates inaccurate estimation of ROI. Yabapmatt explained this himself so whoever votes during that time period actually makes more money because more people back off out of that time frame.
This is a good piece and newbies need to learn that bidbots aren't guaranteed to make money.
There are a couple of scams going on there but if you look at the massive bids, they're actually refunded. The reward is the frontrunner guild upvotes which can be massive in themselves, for no money spent at all.
Some of the massive bids I mentioned in the post were refunded, but not all (at least, not the last time I checked). Plenty of bots don't give any refunds whatsoever, so if you submit an invalid URL or too little SBD or STEEM, they'll treat it as a donation.
I haven't heard of the Frontrunner Guild. What is it that they do?
Haha i think when it didn't get refunded, at least for the Booster ones is where they actually lost money :)
The frontrunner guild works with the Booster bot. Basically they upvote folks who've sent money to Booster before Booster votes. They do this in order to get the curation awards. Now if the SBD is returned, the scammer still gets the votes from frontrunner. Free and easy money.
I can't be sure but i think frontrunner has blocked voting for certain users. Which is why the funds are transferred on behalf of someone else. Just my guess here.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Is it unreasonable of us to think that people shouldn't game a platform that's been gamified?
I wouldn't have a problem if they were upvoting themselves for good content. Manual curation has been pretty crappy and it's only fair that good content is rewarded.
Good content may be subjective but i think we can all agree when content is bad:
Edit: The only way to stop this is when it becomes unprofitable for them. Some of the spammers have been upping their bids so this will probably reach its natural conclusion pretty soon.
Mate, this post deserves a lot more visibilty. You did a great job breaking it all down, and actually putting down solid evidience to back your initial thoughts.
While i enjoy the upvotes from bots, I do have to remind myself that most of these bots are being run for profit.. and the profits of their masters reign supreme to that of ours. I dont know if most of the bots operate like this, but from what i read your upvote is based on your bid relative to everyone else. So naturally, the more popular these bot systems become, the less valuable it is to those people using it :(
You might be right - the bots will die because too many people are trying to feed off of them. Hmm, I've just had an idea for my next post...
Thanks for the comment.
Upvoted on behalf of @thehumanbot and it's allies for writing this great original content.
Great Original Works are rewarded by top Curators, refer posts from my Step-Brother @humanbot for more details.If you like this initiative, you can follow me in SteemAuto and upvote the posts, that I upvote.
And remember to do some charity when you are rich by contributing to me. Check out my Introduction Post for more details. If you have any concerns or feedback with my way of operation, raise it with @sanmi , my operator who is freaking in Steemit chat most of the time.
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