A Reply to - Ostracism on Steemit: Why or Why Not? by @ats-david

I wanted to make a reply to your post @ats-david and didn't want to leave anything out so I made this post. im going to go through your post line for line so I don't miss anything or take anything out of context.

here is the original link if anyone wants to check it out:
https://steemit.com/ostracism/@ats-david/ostracism-on-steemit-why-or-why-not

I hope you have a chance to read it and respond as I have a lot of questions and also am needing a little more input of things that could be considered vague or left open to interpturtion before I can say if I fully disagree or agree with what you are saying in the post. I look forward to hearing back from you.
cheers.
@skeptic

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Ostracism on Steemit: Why or Why Not?
ats-david72 in ostracism

ok first off the pict, lol
not on steemit?
ima just leave it at that as that is a whole nother post in its own.

Is it both important and necessary to identify and weed out bad actors

bad actors according to who? and what is a bad actor to you? seems like a vague description that can be used for anything that one doesn't like just like people do when they call everything trolling. so who is the decider of what a bad actor is?

and should it be done through a decentralized blockchain?

You could not do it if it is truly decentralized because what one person considers a "bad actor" or a "troll" another person disagrees. without a centralized power structure like the "whales" you would not be able to do anything about it. also the block chain would only be a tool as you are saying do it through the block chain. so you are tryin to remove people from the block chain that YOU consider to be "bad actors". am I wrong on that point?

We’ve all seen it happen here: cat-fishing, plagiarism, spamming, social identity-theft, vote-buying, plain old naked scamming, and plenty of other abuses.

the bot voting, the flagging to remove pay outs, whales that upvote their own comments, the abuse of "whale" power on minnows, the censorship, the removal of revenue, the pre-mining of blocks, the doxing of rf4ken back in the day, all the whales that flagged anyone that talked about it. the whale circle jerk to make sure they take almost all the pay out pool, we could go on forever but yeah we remember it All.

Many times, these users go unnoticed for weeks or months, if they’re ever caught.

many times they are the same people from the begining of steemit. many times they are caulght and nothing happens. many times the people speeking out about about the stuff they are doing get flagged by the people turning a blind eye to the problem?
besides who are you trying to protect? or are you seeking protection? I personally don't want you trying to deciede what I get to see on steemit and who are you to say its not ok if I wanna read scam posts all day for fun. also I have seen people flagged that aren't posting a scam but people that flag them say they are. if some person thinks they found a cure for cancer or whatever it is they should have the right to post it no matter who agrees or disagrees with it.

When they are caught, they’re usually downvoted and their reputations take a hit.

ummm no, unless you are trying to make this only about minnows and not whales. whales get caulght all the time doing messed up shit, it is celebrated and applauded and anyone that says otherwise gets a negative rep.

Often though, this damage is minimal and short-lived.

most the people I seen do screwed up shit are still on the top trying to dictate what others get to see on steemit, so major and long lived I would say. maybe your talking about minnows and new comers only?

The scammers, spammers, and other abusers live to fight another day...and even resume their previous abuses.

What is the "other abusers"? because scammer is subjective imo, what you call a scam someone else claims cured their cancer or made them millions or whatever. the spammers are usually people that have been censored and spamming is the only way they can get their voice out and as for "other abusers" we have again entered the territory of vague reasons that could be used for anything. this more and ore sounds like your saying people need to do what I want or they will be banned.

The repeated abuses from repeated abusers and the outright scams that are easily identifiable shouldn’t be something that we tolerate as a community in general.

Whos community? your community or mine? we are individuals and do not have a hive mind. this statement is you saying because you call something abuse or a scam everyone on steemit should either join in on the attacks or turn a blind eye to the flaging because you have called them a part of the "scammr" group or a "bad actor" and there for it is ok and even deserved. what about the repeted flag abuse by repeted offenders whale or not? when people call that behavior out they only get flagged some more.

It’s almost incumbent upon us to ensure that such users receive reputations and rewards that are fitting for the sum of their behaviors.

accoring to who? you? I see that going on until one whale steps in and decides everyone elses votes are meaningless and flag something. you are talking like people posting on steemit are pet doggies. if they roll over on command they get rewarded with a little change, if they bark when its quiet time they are deemed a bad dog and beaten every noise it makes and possibly thrown in the kennel to be put down but be a good dog everyone because the bad dog deserved to have his vocal cords ripped out.
when you say "us" who are you implyin? who made you the decider of what can and cant receive a positive rep or pay out? and what makes you think you have that power let alone why you think you should have that power?

The higher the reputation and the more visibility that these people get – particularly if it’s on the most visible pages, such as trending – the worse Steem and Steemit can look to interested non-users and investors.

the trending page the trending page. LOL who are you to think you should be able to deciede what goes onthe trending page. the trending page should be whats trending, not what a couple whales deem worthy of trending. change the name from tending to whale circlejerk, would be a little more honest. also rep doesn't mean shit, all it means is some whale or 3-4 decieded for any reason that they were gona kill someones account. so couple people on a site with 100k+ people are dictating who and what is allowed to trend/pay out. sounds centralized to me.

In my opinion, a good thing happened last night on this platform.

because people did what you want? O.o

There was what appeared to be a blatant attempt at scamming Steem/Steemit users and investors.

So fucking what? they are all scams to someone and all not scams to others.

The post in question and the parties to it were called out publicly, the primary party withdrew the content

yep the way it should be, but then........

, and the potential post payout and his reputation were quickly brought to zero.

thats bullshit, it was already handled by the public call out and the removal of the content. people then had the ability to remove their upvote if they wanted. again who is the decider of what is ok to flag and what is not? this is all subjective reasoning and no one gave a couple whales the right to be the decider. im sure it was the centralized power that took the pay outs and killed the rep right? now he goes and makes a new account and does it again. congrats you achieved nothing. so can I be the decieder of whats a scam and ok to censor or do you feel only you should have that power? you cant have censorship and free speech, you must deciede if this is anti-censorship platform or a censored platform before you can even start with "reasons" on why someone or omething is worthy of censorship.

A lot of potential marks were likely saved from losing a lot of money.

LMFAO!!!!!!! oh thank you for protecting us!!!* LMFAO! you commit horrible actions agienst free speech and anti-censorship in the name of "protecting" others when no one is calling for your help. SMFH-

Except this guy, perhaps...
(insert worst meme ever)

sorry to rip on your meme but its sad.

But I’m afraid that the swift action was partially due to the fact that the user was an “outsider.” Yes, the potential scam was pretty obvious, but what would have been the result if the post had been written by someone with a 70+ reputation who had been active since last summer? What if it was written by someone who had 2000+ followers and hosted a weekly podcast? Would the reaction have been the same?

no, the circle jerk group that is in power would look the other way and flag/censor anyone that tried to point it out. or atleast that is what I have seen countless times over and over from them.

Should it have been the same?

rep means nothing and anyone posting on steemit can get called out for bullshit. the flagging is wrong no matter the situation but yes people should be held to the same accord no mater of status/rep/steempower ect. that is why a lot of whales/whitnesses get called out on being hypocritical because they flag someone for one thing then upvote on of their friends doing the exact same thing.

There are users on this platform who have been caught in several different abusive schemes and scams over the past year.

yes, and a lot of them are trying to act like they are not the people they were. scheems and scams they still pull after getting called out on it. but everyone looks the other way cause its another whale/whitness. but as i have said before what one person calls a scam another says its not. everything is abuse/scam as they are vague terms that can be used for anything basically.

Some of them have left. Others have stayed and prospered...even after being caught in more than one abuse.

yep I will agree with that statement.

Some of them have very high reputations.

yep and a lot of steempower.

Others have been dragged down to low levels.

yep for "reasons" like offencive words or because they don't think the post is deserving of the pay out or what ever fake reason they make up on the spot.

And a few have been taken down only to rise back up again

3 times baby! but I don't get flagged for scams or crap like that I get them for not having the correct opinion according to a couple people.

despite their continued abuses.

cause everything is abuse. smfh- or maybe a couple whales cant take critisim and get personal and abuse the steem power they have because its the only thing they know to do when people do stuff they don't like? gotta protect everyone on steemit from that type of opinion/post

Some fly under the radar. Some are right in our faces.

Some are mistakenly labled and become the broken eggs thrown in the trash to complete the echo chamber/circle jerk omlette.

Some will probably express some faux outrage over this very post.

fake outrage? im just trying to understand .

Others will try their best to pretend that this post doesn’t even exist.

others wont give a fuck.

I don’t write this because of any personal vendettas or because I want a ... gasp ... “WITCH HUNT!”

wasent thinking that till you said it.

I simply want to ask this community:

ok, i cant speak for this "community" you speak of but ill try to answer them the best i can.

Do you see these things?

yep

Do you care enough to want to do something about them?

yes, i speak out constantly on freedom of speech and anti-censorship.

Should users be ostracized for their bad behavior or not?

bad behaviour according to who? also no, you cant. they can just go and make a new account, or already have hundres. somene will allways consider something bad behaviour when others find it perfectly acceptable. who gets t be the persn that decides? the whales? they dont hold them selfs accountable but are the centralized power structure soo idk. why do they get to decide what is offencive/scam/abuse ect? are you saying you should be the person that deciedes what is to be censored and what isnt to be censored and ignored? In all no, no one should be censored or we should atleast have the option to deciede what we get to see. if i want to read scam posts all day that should be my choice to make not someone elses, others should not get to dictate what i choose to read no matter what they think of the post.

Is this not the ideal place to make it happen?

IDK but that sounds like the most distugisting thing I have heard in a while. People being censored for any reason is not a good direction. you want to stop the scams and stuff then look into them and put out counter information but for you trying to rationalize why it would be justified to do something immoral over some vague claims like "abuse" or calling something a scam is just.... ugh. whats to stop it becoming that you are the one labled and then everything done to you becomes justified because "reasons"?

Or – are you comfortable with such abusers making money and gaining high reputations on a platform into which you have put a lot of time and energy...and maybe even your own money?

its not an either or, there are other options.
no I am not comfortable in that but this idea of censorship and who is deciding what is abuse and not abuse is the problem in my opinion. I came here for the free speech and anti-censorship and that is still the selling point that is used most frequently. that is a lie and in my opinion a scam. I hate watching the censorship for any reason go on.

Are you comfortable with them essentially representing Steem/Steemit on the most visible pages?

yes, the trending page should be whats trending not some other fuckers opinion of what deserves to be seen as trending. if the actions of the whales do not represent steem/steemit then I don't know what does. trying to justifiy their actions for vague reasons is a big representation too IMO atleast.

We have the means here to shun obvious and known scammers, plagiarizers, etc. – and we shouldn’t be afraid to wield such power.

ok I take that statement back, this is the most distugisting thing I have heard in awhile. what is the ect? people should be afraid of trying to start a censorship campaign on a freespeech anti-censorship site. especially when trying to use vague reasons for censorship like "abuse" "scam", "trolling", "harassment", "disagreement on payout" "ect" and so on. the fact that you use the word shun like you do reminds me of @dantheman 's old post about how we should bully everyone into self censorship by the threat of Ostracism. interesting........

Last night was a great example of what can be done.

yep it shows that a couple people have the power to dictate what happens on a site with over 100k users. also shows this site is not anti-censorship/freespeech.

It’s a testament to the general integrity of the user base.

no, it only shows that people that arent in the mafia get taken out for trying to cut in on the action. otherwise you would be calling out the whales/scammers/abusers you were talking about earlier.to say that because this one time out of a thousand it was good in your opinion that all the others were good and all the ones in the future will be the same is crazy to me.

(insert mem here)
says : so your telling me i can't scam on steemit?

umm you can if your in the right club. shit some people even say steemit is a scam so who is deciding what is and isnt a scam?

Ostracism does indeed work.

no it doesnt. they just go and make a new account and they are back at it. also you are talking about censorship not Ostracism. you have no way to make them leave, only thing you can do is try to silence them or provide counter information to show they are wrong. censorship is not the answer, counter information is. let the people make up their own mind on what they want to see and do. if they want to upvote scams thats their choice, you do not have the right to choose for them.

We just need the willpower to employ it, even if it’s against “one of our own.”

LOL, so we have lines drawn. its "us" vs. "them" now? LMFAO! ok so who is this "us and who is the "them"? either with us or agienst us? LMFAO!!!!! the will power to activly censor anything yo deciede is under the "keyword" catagorie?

Our collective honesty regarding who we support and who we ostracize will go a long way towards achieving healthy and sustainable decentralization, especially when money is involved in this system.

collective? people are not a hive mind! this reads almost the same as the old @dantheman post. you you think everyone is a hive mind and will think how you do and only flag the people you want flagged? or are you on the outside of this hive mind? and decentralized? my ass! how mych steem/steempower does the top 30 accounts hold? the only way the little flaggot whale group is able to do what they do now is because they are centralized in power. the reason everything is why it is is because of the money. you might as well try to stop all "skamming" world wide. smfh- your trying to run a censorship casmpain in hopes to stop all scamming world wide for the resto of history based on steemit? nothing will ever stop the scammers from making new accounts, only differnce now is the big time scammers that have been here a while are more hidden and they have 100+ accounts because they didnt need a phone number to get an account. just a throw away email.

Don’t allow this platform to be a sanctuary for social abusers and scammers.

what is a social abuser? LMFAO people that do stuff you dont find acceptable in a social manner? LOL! censorship is wrong, especially when using vague terms like "social abuser" we could say your post is a social abuse right? anything social is a construct and there for a choice. So are you implying a sanctuary for people that get offend over anything or anything and try to censor because of it? if no so i dont want that i want the scammers and trolls and abusers and it all. i have a mute button and i can use it if i need to. other wise its just one person trying to decid what others get to see based off personal opinions. and fuck their opinions just like you would say fuck mine if i was saying i should be the one to deciede what you get to see on steemit.

Let the world know that it won’t be tolerated.

unless they are one of the people been here a while doing it sence the beggining of steemit? then its ok? but censorship is not only tollerated but appluaded? justified with a couple vague keywords that make it ok to treat a huuman that way?

This is our community.

who are you talking for when you say "community" and there are many communitys on steemit. also i wouldnt want to be in the steem power abuse whale censorship fun community thank you annyways for trying to speak for me.

We should represent it well.

by trying to stop all censorship and getting rid of the ability for a small group of people to deciede what others get to see.

Build trust with the onlookers and we’ll see how quickly they become adopters and investors.

and by censoring anyone that points out the problems sure does that doesnt it? celibrating the censors, sure looks good for a free speech anti-censorship site. The fact that it was done by a small number of people sure shows that decentralized power doesnt it? proves it takes more then a small number of people with ther bots to cancle out all the upvotes and to kill an account leaving it censored. sure looks good for investors of a free speech anti-censorship decentralized power site. right?

So what would you choose, given the options?

freespeech and anti-censorship. the ability to make my own choices. people to use the must button and complete removal of anything that could be used as a form of censorship.

Would you ostracize?

no and you cant.

Would you ignore?

if it was something i didnt like but others did, yeah i would ignore it.

Is simply withholding support enough?

if you are refering not upvoting then yes, if you are talking about information to counter the points then yes, if you are talking censorship in any form or flags in any form then fuck no!

Sorry its so long. hope to hear back from you soon so i can fully understand what you are trying to say. I am posting a link to it in the comments of the post as I hope you will see it.

cheers

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