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RE: Got Jesus?

in #religion • 7 years ago

Seriously? I have to find a scripture that defines death as death? No, I don't think so. The straight forward reading of the passages is death.

To quote Edward Fudge, "what does death mean? Death. What does death mean? Death. What does death mean? Death."

The wages of sin is death. the gift of God is eternal life. What does death mean? Death.

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. What does death mean? Death.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. What does perish mean? Perish.

The onus is on you to find scripture that defined death as something other than death. Think it through, man.

7 years ago in #religion by
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     7 years ago (edited)

    1. God is our only father in the sense that he’s the creator of the universe and everything in it. For a simple analogy of George Washington being the Father of the US. Not literally any of ours father. Except Got Begat Jesus Christ in the Flesh.

    2. There is more than one death. The Bible speaks of the second death therefore the first one wasn’t really death. Therefore we have multiple meanings of death.

    3. But You’re making an assertion that God won’t torture an errant soul for eternity; that he will eventually euthanize it out of existence.... Is that not an accurate understanding of your opinion? If so any scripture in that?

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       7 years ago 

      1. Your analogy fails on multiple levels. First, George Washington didn't actually create people. He was instrumental in starting a nation, true, but the Bible says God created us. It also says that God keeps everything in existence by the will of His power. Heb 1:3, Col 1:17 It would be better if you used the analogy Jesus used, it's called the Prodigal son. Luke 15:11-32. What does the parable tell us about God?

      2. The Bible says it is appointed for man to die, then face judgment. Hebrews 9:27. Jesus said there will be a resurrection of all people,

      John 5:28-29. 28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."
      This is the second death. Or, what you are calling euthanasia.

      Reiterated in Acts 24:15

      and I have the same hope in God that they themselves cherish, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

      There is nothing in there that suggests anything besides death. You using the term Euthanasia doesn't redefine the passage. What does death mean? Death.

      1. I gave you many bible verses that say that in the end the "wicked" will be destroyed, killed, etc. Did you even look at any of them?

      What about John 3:16? Romans 6:23? I've posted them several times and you haven't responded to them. I know you know them, they are literally the most famous verses in the whole bible. What more do I need to do? Must I find the term Euthanasia in the Bible? That's preposterous!

      ALL of the verses I posted say that God will destroy the wicked. You have posted ZERO scripture to back up your claims... Care to explain why?

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         7 years ago (edited)

        Here is the back up better than anything I could write.

        “Jesus plainly sets this forth in His message on the sheep and goats: “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (Matt. 25:46; italics added). The punishment of the lost in hell is coextensive to the bliss of the righteous in heaven—both are everlasting.”

        https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/annihilation-or-eternal-punishment/

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           7 years ago 

          Ligonier? So you're a reformed guy? That explains a lot.

          So now I must refute a professional theologian, and I'm just some guy. However, I will try to do it, as opposed to what you are doing, which is passing the buck to someone else to do your thinking for you.

          I will answer each of these arguments in turn. First is the argument from hellfire. Many passages use this language without interpreting it. It is possible, therefore, to read various views into such passages, including annihilationism. However, we do not want to read our ideas into the Bible, but to get our ideas from the Bible. And when we do, we find that some passages preclude an annihilationist understanding of hellfire. These include Jesus’s description of hell in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus as a “place of torment” (Luke 16:28) involving “anguish in this flame” (v. 24).

          It's good that the author here recognizes that this is a parable. I agree, and think we should all be grateful. Consider the idea that you are in heaven and can see and hear the dead in hell being tormented forever, while they cry out to you for relief. Now imagine that your son is down there. Maybe your mother was never really saved in life, and now you live in heaven listening to her for eternity crying out in agony for relief. Sound like heaven?

          The idea that taking the description of the afterlife in this parable as literal is rediculous. The parable has a main point, which is to demonstrate that the commonly held idea that the rich are blessed by God, and righteous, while the poor are cursed by God and thus sinners, is a faulty idea. We don't take the elements of the parable of the sower literal. We don't take the parable of the mustard seed literal. The only reason to take this as literal is to support an otherwise Biblical unsupportable doctrine.

          When the last book of the Bible describes the flames of hell, it does not speak of consumption but says the lost “will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night” (Rev. 14:10–11).

          Again, this is from a book that explicitly states it is recording a prophetic vision. What you take literally says more about you than about the afterlife. Read the entire chapter and tell me what parts you take literally and why.

          Also, the verse doesn't say they will be tormented forever, just that the smoke goes up forever. This is clearly a reference to Isiah 34:9-10: "Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch. It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever." Now, is Edom still burning?

          Second is the argument from passages that speak of destruction or perishing. Once again, when Scripture merely uses these words without interpreting them, many views may be read into them. But once again, we want to read out of Scripture its meaning. And some passages are impossible to reconcile with annihilationism. Paul describes the fate of the lost as suffering “the punishment of eternal destruction” (2 Thess. 1:8). Also telling is the fate of the Beast in Revelation. “Destruction” is prophesied for him in 17:8, 11. The Beast (along with the False Prophet) is cast into “the lake of fire that burns with sulfur” (19:20). Scripture is unambiguous when it describes the fate of the devil, Beast, and False Prophet in the lake of fire: “They will be tormented day and night forever and ever” (20:10). So, the Beast’s “destruction” is everlasting torment in the lake of fire.

          Read the relevent passages. Revelation 20:10 does not say "destruction." Perhaps if you want to take that one passage literally you have God torturing the devil, the beast, and the false prophet forever, but that's it. The author seems to be trying to get people to not look at the passages by stating what they say, then misrepresenting them. Look at them yourself. But again, when else do theologians take stuff from Revelation and use it to build doctrine? Never. The book is notoriously difficult to interpret and openly symbolic.

          Third is the argument from the word eternal. In hell passages, it is claimed, eternal means only pertaining to “the age to come” and not “everlasting.” It is true that in the New Testament, eternal means “agelong,” with the context defining the age. And in texts treating eternal destinies, eternal does refer to the age to come. But the age to come lasts as long as the life of the eternal God Himself. Because He is eternal—He “lives forever and ever” (Rev. 4:9, 10; 10:6; 15:7)—so is the age to come. Jesus plainly sets this forth in His message on the sheep and goats: “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (Matt. 25:46; italics added). The punishment of the lost in hell is coextensive to the bliss of the righteous in heaven—both are everlasting.

          This is just a misunderstanding of the conditionalis argument. Eternal means that it lasts forever. If something is destroyed, then it is gone forever. Hence, eternal destruction is a destruction that lasts forever. If the torment goes on and on, then it is never over and cannot be eternal because there is always future torment.

          Fourth is the argument that it is unjust of God to punish sinners eternally for temporal sins. It strikes me as presumptuous for human beings to tell God what is just and unjust. We would do better to determine from His Holy Word what He deems just and unjust.

          I've already addressed this.

          Jesus leaves no doubt. He will say to the saved, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world” (Matt. 25:34). He will say to the lost, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (v. 41). We have already seen John define that fire as eternal conscious punishment in the lake of fire for the devil (Rev. 20:10). A few verses later, we read that unsaved human beings share the same fate (vv. 14–15). Evidently, God thinks it just to punish human beings who rebel against Him and His holiness with everlasting hell. Is it really our place to call this unjust?

          Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire, "which is the second death." Second death... I've already addressed this.

          I'm stopping there because it doesn't seem that the author makes any new arguments. He doesn't address the hundreds of passages that state the fate of the wicked will be death, destruction, consumed, blown away like chaff, etc. The entire argument is based on one parable and a few verses from Revelation, which literally no two Christian denominations agree on the interpretation of.

          Address the verses I posted. If not here, read them and ask God. Seriously, they speak for themselves. If you honestly can't see a hermeneutic problem with using two passages of scripture that almost nobody denies are figurative and symbolic as the basis for your belief, while simultaneously disregarding non-symbolic and straightforward statements from Genesis through the Epistles, and straight from the mouth of Jesus Himself, then I guess I don't know what else to say.

          Try reading something that isn't supportive of the view and see how the argument stacks up. I'd recommend "The Fire That Consumes," but for a primer you could poke around on the "rethinking hell" blog. I only say this because it doesn't seem to me you have a strong basis for your belief since you can't defend it on your own.

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             7 years ago (edited)

            I’ll read the Book The Fire that Consumes. But you should check out the YouTube series presented by Steven Anderson about The Book of Revelation. It’s eye opening and is why I’m even a Christian today. It spoke to me; nothing is going to take away the peace I feel knowing Christ has saved me. My kids are lost in atheism because I didn’t find the truth of God and being saved by His grace, not by being Good by accepting his sacrifice - until too late to teach them early of the Good News spread by the early Apostles across the world.

            https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4oPLNtP6_ec2ac_ZsujgtcjoPNBwVFET

            So no, being in heaven listening to the screams of the damned including my kids cannot be heaven yet I cannot see any other option based on what I’ve read... Even knowing they’ve been annhilated would not sit well with me either. But is there an alternate end I haven’t read about in the Bible?

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               7 years ago 

              I'm glad to hear that Steven Anderson was able to help you know the Lord, but I've seen his stuff, and I think he's got some pretty wrong headed ways of reading the Bible. I may be thinking of the wrong guy, but isn't he the one that stands at the pulpit proclaiming how happy he is that gay people will be tortured in Hell? There's a place to be grateful for someone for leading you to Christ, but there's also a time to move on... I'm not saying it's that time for you, but for me, I can't listen to him.

              If your kids are still alive it's not too late. Nothing preaches the gospel like a transformed life. Love them, and let them see you love others. Love is attractive, and look what it did for Jesus' ministry. Don't give up.

              I actually think the case for Universal Restoration is pretty convincing, but personally I don't see it as convincing as Conditional Immortality. (AKA annihiliationism) My personal favorite presenters of the view are Peter Hiett and Brian Zandh. There are others, but I like that they really make arguments from the Bible as a priority. I hope their right. If you have the time, check out some of their stuff, it's easily found online.

              The main argument is that the Bible teaches that Jesus will reconcile all creation to Himself in the end. As in Adam all have sinned, so in Christ all will be made alive. There's more, but it's my bedtime so I'll leave it there for now.

              Thanks for the dialog brother. Sorry if I came across as hostile at times, I can get over exuberant.

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               7 years ago (edited)

              Good Night. Yes Anderson is known for hate preaching but I ignore that. I don’t watch his sermons but I like his mini vlogs on specific topics he presents. Like cross examining dispensationaliam, Calvinism, and his post trib prewrath interpretation of The Book of Revelation is as I’ve said. Eye Opening.

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                 7 years ago 

                Just getting into this book. Excellent question going to be answered? “This danger is ever-present regarding any subject, but it hovers over a study of hell like some bird of prey. “How will this view affect evangelism?” people may ask. “Which view of hell most motivates sinners to repent?”23”

                Excerpt From
                The Fire That Consumes
                Edward William Fudge
                https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/the-fire-that-consumes/id917404231?mt=11
                This material may be protected by copyright.

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                   7 years ago 

                  There's a lot there. It may not convince you, but you shouldn't have any questions about the position after reading it.

                  In the end, you have to make up your own mind based on what you think the Bible teaches, he just helps you see things that would otherwise be hard to see.

                  glad you're reading it, and I hope you enjoy it.

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                     7 years ago 

                    Either way this conversation is moot. Whether souls be Annihilated or into Eternal Punishment; makes no difference to me. I want no part of either. I choose the Hand of Christ rather than disappoint my God.

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                       7 years ago 

                      But thank you for bringing me to the debate of Eternal Torture in Hell vs the Annihilation of the souls which I was calling euthanasia. In the end though it’s not Pertinent to the purpose of the blog entry so I edited it again to leave the question open.

                      Check out the Rapture in 2nd Thessalonians. 1:9-10 it’s the rapture.

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                         7 years ago 

                        Oh, I think it's pertinent. That's why I commented. You blog is a fear tactic, and that's not something I think Jesus would do, nor should His followers.

                        Again, I've studied prophecy until my eyes bled... (That's figurative) I disagree with the interpretation you are working with, and I understand it very well. I'm not interested in it. I think it's pointless and counterproductive. I don't think Jesus came just to save our souls, I think He came to teach us how to live as well. It's important how we live, and the rapture doctrine gives people excuses to not follow Jesus' commands because, after all, we're not going to be here for much longer, right? I also think it's unwise to assume that Christians won't be around for tribulation. Seriously, don't you think the Christians living in Syria think they're seeing Great Tribulation? How about the Armenian Genocide? Diocletian persecution?

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                           7 years ago 

                          Yes Christians around the world are experiencing tribulations and their faith is being proven. It’s a promise of being Christian.

                          The rapture is spelled out is many scriptures from Daniel to Thessolonians to great detail in revelations.

                          I agree that Christ came to teach us how to live but more importantly to pay for the right to wipe our slates clean at judgement day.

                          I’ve made some edits to the post thanks to you but yes it’s most definitely aimed developing a healthy fear of God and the wrath he will pour out on the unsaved rebels at the rapture.

                          These warnings are spelled out in the Bible are real and your attitude gives people a false sense of immunity.

                          I’ve also added these edits to the blog post because I do not have a clear understanding of what the Bible says about eternal torture or annihilation.

                          But if you would care to present a summary of what you believe will be the final result for the unsaved and why it matters other than solely if it’s different than the alleged slander of God.

                          I’ve read that some people believe that all souls made in Gods image will eventually be purified and accepted into heaven; is that what you believe too?

                          Edits to Blog Entry:
                          1. Either way this question is moot for the purposes of this blog entry; Whether souls be Annihilated or into Eternal Punishment; makes no difference to me. I want no part of either. I choose the Hand of Christ rather than disappoint my God.

                          2.  God is Enlightenment and existence is hell without his light. He doesn’t want slavery so gave us Free Will. Some might suggest that this choice is under duress but he’s not here with a gun at our heads. We choose by faith. To follow Lucifer and the immediate gratification he provides and with it the second death or we choose God, temporary suffering but an eternity of joy in heaven. Either choice is not without Just rewards making each a valid contract.
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                             7 years ago 

                            Again, I'm not interested in discussing the Rapture. If you cared to look you would see that all the passages you use to support your view have plausible alternate interpretations. Personally, I think the entire exercise is counterproductive as I believe I stated before.

                            I agree that Christ came to teach us how to live but more importantly to pay for the right to wipe our slates clean at judgement day.

                            Okay. I don't think I have a big problem with that. I wouldn't place the emphasis on the afterlife, but whatever.

                            I’ve made some edits to the post thanks to you but yes it’s most definitely aimed developing a healthy fear of God and the wrath he will pour out on the unsaved rebels at the rapture.

                            Well, I guess we'll have to disagree on this one. I don't think it's healthy to think God will torture people in Hell forever. Most of us know people who aren't Christian, and that kind of believe breeds resentment, even if people don't want to admit it. Fear is coercion as any good Libertarian should know, and it's morally wrong to use coercion.

                            These warnings are spelled out in the Bible are real and your attitude gives people a false sense of immunity.

                            I don't see how. Does the idea of being resurrected to stand in front of your Creator for Judgement sound pleasant to you? There's plenty of room for punishment without the need for eternal torture.

                            I’ve also added these edits to the blog post because I do not have a clear understanding of what the Bible says about eternal torture or annihilation.

                            Read "The Fire that Consumes." Or, for a more balanced approach, read "Two Views of Hell A Biblical and Theological Dialogue" Fudge and Peterson. PM me if you want, I'll send it to you in the mail.

                            But if you would care to present a summary of what you believe will be the final result for the unsaved and why it matters other than solely if it’s different than the alleged slander of God.

                            It doesn't really matter what I believe. I can tell you what I think the bible teaches, though. I think it teaches pretty clearly that a: the wages of sin is Death, b: the gift of God is eternal life, c: whoever believes in Jesus will not perish but will be given eternal life, d: the end of the wicked will be eternal destruction. All of those are direct quotes from the Bible.

                            I think there's plenty of room for varying degrees of punishment and varying duration of torment if that is what God wants, but I don't see that spelled out in the Bible.

                            I believe it matters because 1: if you say that you are teaching what God said then it is important to accurately represent what God said. 2: it is a slander on God's character, and millions of people around the world agree, which leads to 3: it is a hindrance to people accepting the Gospel. This wouldn't be a concern if Eternal torture were actually what the bible taught, but if it's not then people like you are unnecessarily turning people away from God by your description of His character that millions of people find repulsive.

                            I’ve read that some people believe that all souls made in Gods image will eventually be purified and accepted into heaven; is that what you believe too?

                            I certainly hope so, but I don't think that's what the Bible teaches. It's another discussion but there are quite a few biblical reasons for thinking this, so I hold out hope. In fact, it's a much stronger case that the case for eternal torture.

                            I have a question for you about the article you posted. Do you know what LIgonier ministries is? Because you say that people have free will, but Ligonier teaches that, and I quote, "God foreordains whatsoever comes to pass." They literally believe that God predestines some people from the beginning of creation to spend eternity in Hell. They do not believe people have free will, but rather that people are predestined as either elect or damned from before they are even born. How great does that God sound?

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                               7 years ago (edited)

                              I’m not a follower of any particular ministry. Anderson’s or Ligoners. The issues (proofs) he presents about eternal damnation is pretty widely accepted by Christianity but not his views on predestination. That’s a farce.

                              Anderson has a video on the eternal punishment in Hell that uses the same scriptures Ligoner uses but doesn’t teach anything supporting predestination. He also preaches a lot of hate messages and a reprobate doctrine I disagree with as well.

                              For me the concept that everyone will be proven and eventually saved sits well with me so does the Mormon doctrine of baptisms for the dead but they’ve got some crazy other stuff that’s simply heresy.

                              What worked for me to see the light is Anderson’s videos on the Post Trib Rapture. Scared me into a voluntary relationship with God. So that’s where I’m at.

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