RE: Got Jesus?
Seriously? I have to find a scripture that defines death as death? No, I don't think so. The straight forward reading of the passages is death.
To quote Edward Fudge, "what does death mean? Death. What does death mean? Death. What does death mean? Death."
The wages of sin is death. the gift of God is eternal life. What does death mean? Death.
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. What does death mean? Death.
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. What does perish mean? Perish.
The onus is on you to find scripture that defined death as something other than death. Think it through, man.
God is our only father in the sense that he’s the creator of the universe and everything in it. For a simple analogy of George Washington being the Father of the US. Not literally any of ours father. Except Got Begat Jesus Christ in the Flesh.
There is more than one death. The Bible speaks of the second death therefore the first one wasn’t really death. Therefore we have multiple meanings of death.
But You’re making an assertion that God won’t torture an errant soul for eternity; that he will eventually euthanize it out of existence.... Is that not an accurate understanding of your opinion? If so any scripture in that?
Your analogy fails on multiple levels. First, George Washington didn't actually create people. He was instrumental in starting a nation, true, but the Bible says God created us. It also says that God keeps everything in existence by the will of His power. Heb 1:3, Col 1:17 It would be better if you used the analogy Jesus used, it's called the Prodigal son. Luke 15:11-32. What does the parable tell us about God?
The Bible says it is appointed for man to die, then face judgment. Hebrews 9:27. Jesus said there will be a resurrection of all people,
Reiterated in Acts 24:15
There is nothing in there that suggests anything besides death. You using the term Euthanasia doesn't redefine the passage. What does death mean? Death.
What about John 3:16? Romans 6:23? I've posted them several times and you haven't responded to them. I know you know them, they are literally the most famous verses in the whole bible. What more do I need to do? Must I find the term Euthanasia in the Bible? That's preposterous!
ALL of the verses I posted say that God will destroy the wicked. You have posted ZERO scripture to back up your claims... Care to explain why?
Here is the back up better than anything I could write.
“Jesus plainly sets this forth in His message on the sheep and goats: “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (Matt. 25:46; italics added). The punishment of the lost in hell is coextensive to the bliss of the righteous in heaven—both are everlasting.”
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/annihilation-or-eternal-punishment/
Ligonier? So you're a reformed guy? That explains a lot.
So now I must refute a professional theologian, and I'm just some guy. However, I will try to do it, as opposed to what you are doing, which is passing the buck to someone else to do your thinking for you.
I'm stopping there because it doesn't seem that the author makes any new arguments. He doesn't address the hundreds of passages that state the fate of the wicked will be death, destruction, consumed, blown away like chaff, etc. The entire argument is based on one parable and a few verses from Revelation, which literally no two Christian denominations agree on the interpretation of.
Address the verses I posted. If not here, read them and ask God. Seriously, they speak for themselves. If you honestly can't see a hermeneutic problem with using two passages of scripture that almost nobody denies are figurative and symbolic as the basis for your belief, while simultaneously disregarding non-symbolic and straightforward statements from Genesis through the Epistles, and straight from the mouth of Jesus Himself, then I guess I don't know what else to say.
Try reading something that isn't supportive of the view and see how the argument stacks up. I'd recommend "The Fire That Consumes," but for a primer you could poke around on the "rethinking hell" blog. I only say this because it doesn't seem to me you have a strong basis for your belief since you can't defend it on your own.
I’ll read the Book The Fire that Consumes. But you should check out the YouTube series presented by Steven Anderson about The Book of Revelation. It’s eye opening and is why I’m even a Christian today. It spoke to me; nothing is going to take away the peace I feel knowing Christ has saved me. My kids are lost in atheism because I didn’t find the truth of God and being saved by His grace, not by being Good by accepting his sacrifice - until too late to teach them early of the Good News spread by the early Apostles across the world.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4oPLNtP6_ec2ac_ZsujgtcjoPNBwVFET
So no, being in heaven listening to the screams of the damned including my kids cannot be heaven yet I cannot see any other option based on what I’ve read... Even knowing they’ve been annhilated would not sit well with me either. But is there an alternate end I haven’t read about in the Bible?
I'm glad to hear that Steven Anderson was able to help you know the Lord, but I've seen his stuff, and I think he's got some pretty wrong headed ways of reading the Bible. I may be thinking of the wrong guy, but isn't he the one that stands at the pulpit proclaiming how happy he is that gay people will be tortured in Hell? There's a place to be grateful for someone for leading you to Christ, but there's also a time to move on... I'm not saying it's that time for you, but for me, I can't listen to him.
If your kids are still alive it's not too late. Nothing preaches the gospel like a transformed life. Love them, and let them see you love others. Love is attractive, and look what it did for Jesus' ministry. Don't give up.
I actually think the case for Universal Restoration is pretty convincing, but personally I don't see it as convincing as Conditional Immortality. (AKA annihiliationism) My personal favorite presenters of the view are Peter Hiett and Brian Zandh. There are others, but I like that they really make arguments from the Bible as a priority. I hope their right. If you have the time, check out some of their stuff, it's easily found online.
The main argument is that the Bible teaches that Jesus will reconcile all creation to Himself in the end. As in Adam all have sinned, so in Christ all will be made alive. There's more, but it's my bedtime so I'll leave it there for now.
Thanks for the dialog brother. Sorry if I came across as hostile at times, I can get over exuberant.
Good Night. Yes Anderson is known for hate preaching but I ignore that. I don’t watch his sermons but I like his mini vlogs on specific topics he presents. Like cross examining dispensationaliam, Calvinism, and his post trib prewrath interpretation of The Book of Revelation is as I’ve said. Eye Opening.
Just getting into this book. Excellent question going to be answered? “This danger is ever-present regarding any subject, but it hovers over a study of hell like some bird of prey. “How will this view affect evangelism?” people may ask. “Which view of hell most motivates sinners to repent?”23”
Excerpt From
The Fire That Consumes
Edward William Fudge
https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/the-fire-that-consumes/id917404231?mt=11
This material may be protected by copyright.
There's a lot there. It may not convince you, but you shouldn't have any questions about the position after reading it.
In the end, you have to make up your own mind based on what you think the Bible teaches, he just helps you see things that would otherwise be hard to see.
glad you're reading it, and I hope you enjoy it.
Either way this conversation is moot. Whether souls be Annihilated or into Eternal Punishment; makes no difference to me. I want no part of either. I choose the Hand of Christ rather than disappoint my God.
But thank you for bringing me to the debate of Eternal Torture in Hell vs the Annihilation of the souls which I was calling euthanasia. In the end though it’s not Pertinent to the purpose of the blog entry so I edited it again to leave the question open.
Check out the Rapture in 2nd Thessalonians. 1:9-10 it’s the rapture.
Oh, I think it's pertinent. That's why I commented. You blog is a fear tactic, and that's not something I think Jesus would do, nor should His followers.
Again, I've studied prophecy until my eyes bled... (That's figurative) I disagree with the interpretation you are working with, and I understand it very well. I'm not interested in it. I think it's pointless and counterproductive. I don't think Jesus came just to save our souls, I think He came to teach us how to live as well. It's important how we live, and the rapture doctrine gives people excuses to not follow Jesus' commands because, after all, we're not going to be here for much longer, right? I also think it's unwise to assume that Christians won't be around for tribulation. Seriously, don't you think the Christians living in Syria think they're seeing Great Tribulation? How about the Armenian Genocide? Diocletian persecution?
Yes Christians around the world are experiencing tribulations and their faith is being proven. It’s a promise of being Christian.
The rapture is spelled out is many scriptures from Daniel to Thessolonians to great detail in revelations.
I agree that Christ came to teach us how to live but more importantly to pay for the right to wipe our slates clean at judgement day.
I’ve made some edits to the post thanks to you but yes it’s most definitely aimed developing a healthy fear of God and the wrath he will pour out on the unsaved rebels at the rapture.
These warnings are spelled out in the Bible are real and your attitude gives people a false sense of immunity.
I’ve also added these edits to the blog post because I do not have a clear understanding of what the Bible says about eternal torture or annihilation.
But if you would care to present a summary of what you believe will be the final result for the unsaved and why it matters other than solely if it’s different than the alleged slander of God.
I’ve read that some people believe that all souls made in Gods image will eventually be purified and accepted into heaven; is that what you believe too?
Edits to Blog Entry:
1. Either way this question is moot for the purposes of this blog entry; Whether souls be Annihilated or into Eternal Punishment; makes no difference to me. I want no part of either. I choose the Hand of Christ rather than disappoint my God.
Again, I'm not interested in discussing the Rapture. If you cared to look you would see that all the passages you use to support your view have plausible alternate interpretations. Personally, I think the entire exercise is counterproductive as I believe I stated before.
Okay. I don't think I have a big problem with that. I wouldn't place the emphasis on the afterlife, but whatever.
Well, I guess we'll have to disagree on this one. I don't think it's healthy to think God will torture people in Hell forever. Most of us know people who aren't Christian, and that kind of believe breeds resentment, even if people don't want to admit it. Fear is coercion as any good Libertarian should know, and it's morally wrong to use coercion.
I don't see how. Does the idea of being resurrected to stand in front of your Creator for Judgement sound pleasant to you? There's plenty of room for punishment without the need for eternal torture.
Read "The Fire that Consumes." Or, for a more balanced approach, read "Two Views of Hell A Biblical and Theological Dialogue" Fudge and Peterson. PM me if you want, I'll send it to you in the mail.
It doesn't really matter what I believe. I can tell you what I think the bible teaches, though. I think it teaches pretty clearly that a: the wages of sin is Death, b: the gift of God is eternal life, c: whoever believes in Jesus will not perish but will be given eternal life, d: the end of the wicked will be eternal destruction. All of those are direct quotes from the Bible.
I think there's plenty of room for varying degrees of punishment and varying duration of torment if that is what God wants, but I don't see that spelled out in the Bible.
I believe it matters because 1: if you say that you are teaching what God said then it is important to accurately represent what God said. 2: it is a slander on God's character, and millions of people around the world agree, which leads to 3: it is a hindrance to people accepting the Gospel. This wouldn't be a concern if Eternal torture were actually what the bible taught, but if it's not then people like you are unnecessarily turning people away from God by your description of His character that millions of people find repulsive.
I certainly hope so, but I don't think that's what the Bible teaches. It's another discussion but there are quite a few biblical reasons for thinking this, so I hold out hope. In fact, it's a much stronger case that the case for eternal torture.
I have a question for you about the article you posted. Do you know what LIgonier ministries is? Because you say that people have free will, but Ligonier teaches that, and I quote, "God foreordains whatsoever comes to pass." They literally believe that God predestines some people from the beginning of creation to spend eternity in Hell. They do not believe people have free will, but rather that people are predestined as either elect or damned from before they are even born. How great does that God sound?
I’m not a follower of any particular ministry. Anderson’s or Ligoners. The issues (proofs) he presents about eternal damnation is pretty widely accepted by Christianity but not his views on predestination. That’s a farce.
Anderson has a video on the eternal punishment in Hell that uses the same scriptures Ligoner uses but doesn’t teach anything supporting predestination. He also preaches a lot of hate messages and a reprobate doctrine I disagree with as well.
For me the concept that everyone will be proven and eventually saved sits well with me so does the Mormon doctrine of baptisms for the dead but they’ve got some crazy other stuff that’s simply heresy.
What worked for me to see the light is Anderson’s videos on the Post Trib Rapture. Scared me into a voluntary relationship with God. So that’s where I’m at.