Why even if there is a god, it can not save you

in religion •  2 years ago

This post is addressed to theists who still retain belief in an all-loving god and was inspired by the brilliant "beyond the reach of god" from lesswrong - a blog I encourage everyone (and I mean that literally) to read:

http://lesswrong.com/lw/uk/beyond_the_reach_of_god/

For the purpose of this post, I will write as if I was a theist (I am not - I do not believe in any deity) and explain my view why there are some horrors that god can not save you from.

2+2=5

Imagine a world in which 2+2 adds up to 5. Really, try and model it in your mind - how would such a world behave? Every time you put 2 objects into an empty container and then another 2, you find 5 objects. This appears impossible, but within the power of a god physically speaking.

But what if we simply speak of mathematics and logic? If we retain the same laws of logic and mathematics and program a computer, it will still tell us that 2+2=4. God could reach down and alter the physical basis of the computation, but that would not make 2+2=5 in the metaphysical realm of logic.

How reality works

Picture now, the interplay of subatomic particles and what happens in the higher levels of reality, down there in the quantum foam. Even if some intelligence was manipulating the quantum foam, there are facts that continue to be true if we model reality as we currently understand it.

Imagine then, if we build a system that physically simulates the universe using the laws we can observe, a system like this would have no room for miracles or outside intervention.

The concept of a miracle

In many religious beliefs, such as catholicism, exists the belief in the concept of miracles - ways in which the laws of nature can be suspended through direct divine intervention. This is akin to building a simulation of the universe, pausing it, manipulating the state to do something the normal laws of the simulation do not allow and then restarting it again.

In a simulated universe, this would be trivial - and it'd also be trivial for any being with such power over our universe (such as a deity).

But 2+2 remains 4, not 5 - and here i'd like to ask a somewhat mindblowing question: what happens out in the metaphysical realm of universes that follow the original rules of the simulation perfectly? The same original result will always occur in that realm.


The question to ask about our universe

If there is a god capable of miracles, then there are two universes: the manipulated one, and the logical one where cause and effect are all-powerful.

Which one is it more likely that we live in? If divine intervention exists, it creates 2 realities - and what if we live in the one that is unreachable?


Why we live in the universe without miracles

Current evidence suggests that all recorded instances of miracles throughout human history are actually explainable by cause and effect. If there is a god, we live in a universe that can not be reached by god.

Even if you can prove there is a god, this being would be either be bound by cause and effect in this universe, or there is another universe where the horrors of nature can not be avoided. The evidence suggests we live in a natural universe.


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Truth never comes from fear. If I am tortured to believe that 2 + 2 = 5, still 2 + 2 will never be 5.

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That is exactly the point.

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Argumentum ad baculum (Latin for "argument to the cudgel" or "appeal to the stick") is the fallacy committed when one appeals to force or the threat of force to bring about the acceptance of a conclusion. One participates in argumentum ad baculum when one points out the negative consequences of holding the contrary position (ex. believe what I say, or I will hit you). It is a specific case of the negative form of an argument to the consequences.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_baculum

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And it exists nowhere in my post - you're completely missing the point.

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I am not saying it exists in you post. I am just clarifying the name of the falacy.

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I don't get the relevance then.

Our whole experience of life depends on the different vibrational frequencies that we choose to be in. Higher the frequencies the better experiences of life and the experiences of what we call miracles.
As per my knowledge Miracles are nothing but experiences of higher frequencies that one elevates to

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This is new-age nonsense, to put it bluntly - while particle vibrations do exist, they have nothing to do with human values.

Miracles in particular, especially as i'm using the term here, have a strict definition of events that break natural laws via divine intervention - my argument is that IF miracles can occur, they would not occur in the purely mathematical universe and are equivalent to stopping a simulation, manipulating state and restarting it.

To put it another way, 2+2 remains 4 - even if there is a god and that god is able to reach into the atoms that make up your computer and rearrange them so that it says 2+2=5.

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What if human feelings, or human perception of the world around could be affected/related to some form of energy in 4 dimensions? (See the original 12 equations of Maxwell) I dont see why not, if you just try to explain the world with the information you deal with, it will happen to your explanation what it has happened to every explanation before, it will be flawed, and surpassed by the next trend of explanations.

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Human perception can be easily explained as a consequence of the operation of the human brain.

Higher dimensions are not needed to explain this - we're 4D beings (3 spatial, 1 temporal), you don't need to look at higher dimensions to explain anything.

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Ah! there you go, 3 spatial dimensions and 1 for time right ? I think the temporal dimension is just a arbitrary invention to explain the unexplainable in any other way.
If you are interested, and only if you are interested in science, let me advise you to check the real set of equations by Maxwell (they were 12), through which he explained a world of 4 spatial dimensions and none for time. After that you could check as well the work of professor Konstatine Meyl of some university in Germany, he demostrated some years ago the transmission of information/energy faster than the speed of light.

If you believed in Einstein, you can always update your theories ;)

If you are finally interested in Science and at least curiosity drives you to check what I have advised you, please let me know what you think, I am curious about your capacity of adapting to new knowledge, I could always be totally wrong.....

I can not remember reading in your post the huge possibility that our Universe is more complex than we can perceive by the logic expected by a human being, and what you call a miracle can be explained by an unknown law of physics, hence your logical world of human Mathematics AND the world of miracles are simply a Universe not explained correctly.

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The definition of a miracle is something that breaks the laws of nature through divine intervention.

In practice, any sort of "miracles" that we observe are explainable as not actually violating the laws of nature, but instead either being an application of those laws we didn't notice, or the application of laws we previously didn't know about. This would mean our universe is not truly one in which miracles occur.

The point of this post is that even if miracles can occur (I do not believe they can), it would not save you in the strict logical universe.

The miracle is the logic itself. If God is everything then logically we all have a part in it. Sounds like a fun game.

I liked reading conversations with God, there were some interesting ideas there. One was something like all difference between rich and poor would solve themselves if we all new how each of us were making. Guess what, we have arrived!

What if, in our own life there were miracles every day,
but we just don't see them because we want them to be our way ?

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Remember the definition of miracle - something that violates natural laws. If they were happening every day, they wouldn't be miracles.