RE: Got Jesus?
Copied from my blog entry on repentance.
Refer to Hebrews 12:4-12 concerning believers being scourged and our faith proven by going through the pain and tribulations in this life that sin causes.
People who think they can be saved by living perfect lives will never understand this and never believe it and maybe never experience any tribulations and in the end will go to hell for lack of faith and for the sins they thought weren’t thaaaat bad.
In closing, constantly pleading for forgiveness means you have no faith in him or his gift. His gift is contingent solely on our faith and fealty. Faith frees us from sin - it’s true Freedom.
First Believe in Christ then Worry about being scourged for your sins in this life, not whether your apologies are good enough; they aren’t and aren’t necessary.
I feel like this reply should have been directed to the other commentator. I'm not arguing salvation by works. I'm discussing the justice of Eternal torture, and the nature of God.
However, I would like to ask you what your definition of faith is, in your own words. I feel like you have a different understanding of it than I do.
Also, you seem to want to cut out the sections of the Gospels that deal with all that Jesus said and did during His ministry. Would it have been sufficient for Him to be born, go straight to the cross, resurrection, then ascension without any of the teachings?
Definition of faith? Hope confirmed by the spirit and random moments in my life that happen and confirm something new that I’ve recently learned.
Point me to the things I’ve cut out of the Gospels that you think i need to learn or be reminded of. Thanks in Advance.
I don't know if I'd say you left anything out of the gospel. I didn't see this post as a presentation of the gospel... Was it? If so, I'd say you left out all the stuff Jesus and Paul said about the Kingdom, which was Jesus' number one message. I'd also say that nobody in the bible ever preached the gospel you just did, which is basically a watered down version of "sinners in the hands of an angry God," a gospel of coercion. Obey or be tortured forever...
Thanks for your definition of faith. It really does put some of this discussion into context for me. So we're on a level playing field, I think faith is trusting enough to act in spite of doubt. It seems to me that you're operating on a faith that is mostly evidence based, or built on surety, where I view faith as having doubt, but believing Jesus enough to trust Him and do what He said. For me, without actually doing anything that He said you can't have faith.
For an example, you can believe that your wife would never cheat on you, but it's not faith until you trust her in difficult situations. Or, you can believe the bungee chord will not break, but it's not faith until you jump.
I have faith first make the leap and if it’s correctly placed it’s confirmed by random circumstance.
My faith in The fidelity of my wife is confirmed by passing the difficult situations. My faith is confirmed by the chord not breaking.
Faith should always be confirmed. Preach what you learned and God will confirm but if I teach lies I’ll be disciplined. So please let me know if I’ve presented any falsehoods I will pray on the matter.
You do have a point about the Angry God Sermon. This blog entry needed a better intro. This conversation has resulted in adding an intro.
Thanks!
I think the intro is a good addition. I still think you have a pretty nasty view of God, but at least you're upfront about it.
I'd still like to hear you answer the question how it's not torture if God is the one keeping the souls alive forever in Hell. I think we both agree that life is a gift of God, right? And that life only continues because God wills it? (Again, from Hebrews 1 among other verses)
It’s based on my belief the soul is eternal and the second death doesn’t result in the actual extinction of the accumulated intelligence of the soul. Is he keeping the intelligence alive to be tortured? No. It’s dead in the sense of being exiled from God but still aware of their fates.
It sounds like you’re suggesting God will euthanize those souls who don’t commit to him? If so, any scripture on that?
Seriously? I have to find a scripture that defines death as death? No, I don't think so. The straight forward reading of the passages is death.
To quote Edward Fudge, "what does death mean? Death. What does death mean? Death. What does death mean? Death."
The wages of sin is death. the gift of God is eternal life. What does death mean? Death.
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. What does death mean? Death.
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. What does perish mean? Perish.
The onus is on you to find scripture that defined death as something other than death. Think it through, man.
God is our only father in the sense that he’s the creator of the universe and everything in it. For a simple analogy of George Washington being the Father of the US. Not literally any of ours father. Except Got Begat Jesus Christ in the Flesh.
There is more than one death. The Bible speaks of the second death therefore the first one wasn’t really death. Therefore we have multiple meanings of death.
But You’re making an assertion that God won’t torture an errant soul for eternity; that he will eventually euthanize it out of existence.... Is that not an accurate understanding of your opinion? If so any scripture in that?