RE: Got Jesus?
If God doesn’t allow us to be punished for committing crimes against our neighbors and against him, he would not be a Just God. If he didn’t provide a savior he wouldn’t be a merciful God. If he didn’t give us a choice we wouldn’t even be sentient.
I use to struggle with the same issues of hypocrites until I realized I will always be a sinner and so will they. How we act after being saved will be punished in this life if bad or glorified higher in heaven for charity; but all who accept his gift will be saved.
You’re still questioning the need to be saved at all? The Bible says that no man ever can fullfill the requirements of the old law. He instituted the new law of faith. Christ’s gift is the only way back to God.
Accepting the Holy Spirit into my life has been a huge blessing And now I want to do for him the things I felt forced to do before when struggling with Hypocrites. The spirit guides me now, whereas Before, I was often second guessing myself. Now I live by the spirit and look for confirmation of Epiphanies that come more often now as I grow in understanding of our purpose and mission in this life. To Love God and our Neighbors. How we do that is a personal matter but we cannot work our way into heaven without believing in him and the sacrifice he made for us. But we can gain the rewards in heaven that living a charitable life will bring us.
I feel like I'm talking to myself from five years ago.... I guess that's why I feel a little triggered right now. The whole "being led by the Holy Spirit" idea sounds nice, but when different "christians" feel led by the HS to preach contradictory narratives it becomes hard to reconcile. Who is correct? What way of reading the bible is correct? If the HS doesn't answer when you ask for guidance, what do you do then?
Another problem is that people, and you and I seem to be them, often say, "the bible says..." and then follow with their own interpretation of what the bible says. It isn't so clear what you say about the commandments, and that should be evident by the huge numbers of "Christians" who read the same bible as you and say "the bible says..." followed by "we must obey the Law of God." Really, it's not hard to find.
I understand that the church is full of people, and that people are imperfect, but that shouldn't preclude the church from being loving towards each other, if not towards everyone. Jesus said that His followers would be know by their love... Who in the world describes Christians as loving? If you stand from the outside and look objectively, it seems to me that Christians are only loving towards people who share their exact same beliefs, and when there is a disagreement the hate comes out pretty quick.
For the record, I "accepted the Holy Spirit in my life" over thirty years ago, and there have been good times and bad since. Looking back, I can't really distinguish the things I thought were from the HS from things that other people worked out just fine without Him. It doesn't seem to me that "Christians" are especially blessed any more than non-christians. It doesn't seem to effect their behavior all that much, and it doesn't seem to free them from sin.
You say I question the need to be saved at all? No, you mistake me. I'm question the power of your religion to save. I thought for years it did. Argued vociferously that it did, even very recently. If asked about it, I'd probably still give the party line, but I have some real doubts. Mostly, I fail to see the power, love, grace, or mercy the Bible says is there.
As for punishment, I understand it's hard to let go of the desire for a pound of flesh. It makes us feel good to know the "bad" people are going to get what they have coming. But how is death not a punishment? Isn't death the exact punishment promised all throughout the Bible, from Genesis through Revelation? Isn't death what Jesus said will happen to those who don't believe in Him? Didn't Paul say the "wages of sin is Death?" Why this need for eternal torture? Is it just?
If we are made in the image of God, and I think the bible is pretty clear on that, then shouldn't we expect our sense of justice to derive from Him? I've heard that exact argument used by countless Christian apologists to "prove" His existence, yet when it comes to Justice we somehow think it's okay for God to behave in ways that we would consider completely unjust if a person were to do it.
If someone is guilty of murder, what is a just punishment? Is fifty years in a torture chamber good enough? I think that's barbaric, and so do most people. Death is the punishment God prescribed for the Israelites who took a life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life. It seems pretty clear that God is instructing them on Justice. Why didn't He tell them to torture the murderer for some time before execution?
Now, you have God not only executing the sinner, but then He resurrect them for the sole purpose of torturing them endlessly. How is that just? Where in the Bible is that idea? I guess you can get it from Revelation, when Satan and his minions are cast into the lake of fire to be tormented forever, but at best you have the worst of the worst suffering endlessly. Your explanation of Hell puts people there for eternal torture who lived their entire life in a place where the gospel was never preached. Or people who were so harmed by "Christians" that they were unable to respond to the gospel. Or people who just never gave religion or God much thought, but were otherwise decent people.
Do people deserve death for stealing? How about lying? Or coveting? Do people deserve to be tortured forever for the same? Think about that for a while... Why would you say it is Just for God to behave that way when it wouldn't be just for one of us to?
To me, this is one of the problems with the whole ball of wax. How is it that "Christians" are loving if most of them openly hold out hope that most of the people in the world will be tortured forever? If they truly believed that, what in the world is more important than trying to stop it from happening? I mean, seriously, why wast time on a blog, job, skiing, or reading a book? Someone might suffer eternal torture because of your tendency to procrastinate... Either Christians don't really believe it, or they aren't loving. If they aren't loving, according to Jesus they aren't His followers.
You say you're Libertarian, can I ask why? I'd like to know, but for now here's why I am. I don't think it is morally acceptable to force people to act the way you want them to, either directly or through coercion. In fact, it was through reading the gospels that I came to that conclusion because it seems to me that Jesus refused to use coercion or violence even when people were ready to make Him king. He didn't act like that because it was wrong. It is still wrong. Why would you think God would act like that?
Thank you for the discussion and FYI I have thought about pretty much everything you’ve mentioned and have had the same reservations.
We all don’t and probably can’t have the Same love for our unsaved neighbors as Jesus during his ministry did. But I’m forgiven for that. I think Paul wrote a few letters calling some of the churches out for not being as proactive about spreading the gospel as they should have been. It’s important to spread the love not the hate. All the reasons you mentioned kept me away from Christ.
I’ve come to Christ because of the prophesies in revelations; suddenly seeing the possibility of the impossibly impossible act of shutting down all commerce without taking in the Mark of the beast. We are standing on the precipice watching crypto currencies and RFID about to end all commerce in cash taking the prophesies out of the realm of fantasy into possibility and probability.
The diety of Christ is clear to me now, the abhorrent results of crime and punishment, and for people who have never heard of Christianity; I have hope / faith that God is both Just and merciful and everyone will get the appropriate reward or punishment at judgement day.
This blog entry is aimed at showing a macro look at biblical history. Clearly showing a pattern that he’s not a respector of persons destroying everyone whose ability to choose was completely prevented by their society falling away. In that sense many people who may not have ever heard of The True God were killed.
And the truth of the biblical prophesies in revelation? Look at current events. It’s scary as hell.
My application of moral judgements against God are pointless. He’s God I’m not, and shits about to hit the fan. It’s time for everyone to get right with God not the other way around.
https://steemit.com/israel/@adconner/the-temple-mount-and-raising-the-antichrist
I am a libertarian because I believe in absolute morality. Respect for other people’s lives, property and treasure without exception.
God is too. He’s given us a choice. Him or hell. But again hell isnt the punishment it’s the result of justice. Is it too much or too little? I have faith in God’s mercy.
Well, I don't feel like you've thought through your position very well. What is punishment? What is justice? Is there a point to the never ending torture? Does sin ever actually get dealt with?
Discipline is something that is meant to encourage growth, punishment is punitive. I don't see how you could possibly say that God has respect for people's lives if you think He will keep them alive forever for the sole purpose of torturing them... Honestly, that baffles me. Most "Christians" will at least try to explain how it is just in some sense, but you don't seem inclined to even ponder it.
If you believe in absolute morality, then is torture wrong? If so, why?
You say God gave us a choice, heaven or hell... Is that in the Bible? Where? Every verse I can find says the choice is life or death.
john 3:16, Romans 6:20-23, Deut 30:19, John 10:10, 2 Peter 3:9, Ezek 18:4, 2 Thes 1:8-9, Gen 2:17, Deut 4:1, Jer 21:8, prov 11:19, Matt 25:46, Romans 5:12, James 1:5, psalm 1:6, 9:5, 11:6, This could take all day...
God doesn’t have respect for people’s lives. He’s not a respector of persons if I ever said he was, was missing the word ‘Not’.
Jesus Christ is not a respecter of persons. He came to save souls not lives. He came to satisfy the law of justice. To be the last sacrifice as payment for our sins.
Discipline will be handed out in this life to his faithful. (Hebrews 12:6-7)
God is not going to torture anyone. This situation we put ourselves into. Analogy: you are about to fall into a volcano which won’t kill you. It will torture you for eternity but Jesus offers you his hand to pull you to safety but you refuse his hand because your principles tell you the whole paradigm is flawed.
As far as people who never heard of the one True God? We need to bring them the gospel. But died in the past never having had a choice? The blame is their ancestors not theirs and I have faith in God’s mercy to do the right thing.
I’ll read those scriptures you suggested. Thanks.
Wow! This is enlightening. Do you really mean to say that God doesn't respect human life? Is that based off Acts 10:34? Because, if so I think you are taking that entirely out of context. The actual context is Peter explaining how God values all human life equally. The KJV is old English, and people don't talk that way anymore. Modern versions read:
NIV: Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism
ESV: So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,
NASB: Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
If you really don't think God respects human life, then why the commandment forbidding murder? What's the big deal?
And Jesus... Really? Do you actually rip the middle part of the gospels out of your bible? What about what He said?
John 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
Never mind that Jesus' number one message was the "Kingdom of God" which He said was "at hand" and "upon you." Why did He even preach the sermon on the mount? It would be easier to get people to heaven if people went around forcing conversions, then killing the converted. There's no reason to keep them alive, right? Why try to stop abortion? The babies are probably going to heaven, right? So why not fill the place with babies?
How can you say with a straight face that your conception of Hell isn't God torturing people? Your analogy sucks because people don't live forever, unless God decides that they will. It says that in the bible a whole bunch, so I guess take that up with God. Jesus Himself said that God had the power to destroy the soul:
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Nevermind for now that the verse clearly teaches that the soul is destroyed in hell, but think for a second... If God can destroy the soul, but chooses not to so that a person can be in eternal torment... How is God not torturing them? That makes no sense at all...
Let's re-frame your analogy. It seems to me it's more like this: you are about to fall into a hole that leads to a torture chamber. I tell you to take my hand so that you don't fall into the torture chamber, but you don't believe me. You fall, and I torture you.
I'm glad you can somehow have faith that God will be merciful considering your conception of Him. Keep that thread alive. Just FYI, if the Bible doesn't teach what you are saying that it does, you really ought to reconsider your position.
The History of God destroying whole civilizations from time to time shows his level of respect for human lives. Does it not?
Well, there's the flood. But if you take that as literal, you got to take the statements that the "whole earth was corrupt" and that "every intention of man was only evil, continually" seriously. The rest of the civilizations were actually destroyed by other agents. Nations, Angels, The Destroyer... But yeah, that's still a problem.
The question is, what is God like? Is God like the OT diety that kills people, or is God like Jesus, who said to pray for your enemies, forgive 70 times 70, bless those who curse you, turn the other cheek... He also said that if you have seen Him, you have seen the Father.
The way I take it is that the Old Testament prophets were only able to give us glimpses of God. They weren't able to give us the full revelation of His character, but Jesus did. Hebrews 1 says that Jesus is the "radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being." Exact. That means that God's character is exactly like Jesus'.
Even if you want to stick to the guns and say that God killed all those people, you still don't have eternal torment. You have at best an ending of life, with still the resurrection in the future to set things right. There's no torture, and there's always a purpose.
Any more comments on faith confirmed?
The great examples of faith in the bible don't lead me to agree with your definition.
Did Moses have faith? He never reached the promised land.
Did Abraham see his decedents number as the stars?
How about Abel? Was his faith confirmed by being murdered?
From Hebrews 11, the "Hall of Faith"
The faith is supposed to be that in the end, at the resurrection, God will vindicate the righteous. It's not to be expected here. If you get "confirmation" and it helps you, that's great, but it doesn't always work like that.
I truly hope for your sake that you keep getting those confirmations. The world is a dark place when you don't.
Luckily I was born when I did. To be able to apply the signs of the impending rapture to current events then researching it and finding a whole group of people preaching the same to confirm my belief.
Otherwise I’d still be unsaved because of my concerns with the appropriateness of God’s judgements.