RE: Is It Time To Take Military Action Against North Korea?
The first question you must ask yourself - why was North Korea demonized in the first place?
Ok - the Korean War. But that's long over with. The North Koreans have North Korera, the South Koreans have South Korea, and both sides quietly dream of re-unification.
The US, since the second world war, is a militarized nation. One thing a militarized nation needs is an enemy. No enemy = no need for the military industrial complex and huge sums of money flowing into certain pockets.
The West used to have the Soviet Union to justify their spending. Then they had to 'liberate' various countries that somehow had American oil under the soil.
That is more or less resolved. But one enemy is never enough, so North Korea, instead of being embraced is hounded and persecuted for 'all sorts of crimes against its people'.
And so the rhetoric the west is building in preparation for the upcoming war you are proposing, is that they will be 'liberating' the poor North Koreans. Nobody gets to ask the North Koreans if they want the Americans to rescue them. It's just assumed that because the eat rice instead of McDonalds that they need rescuing.
Where does North Korea get its revenue from? A bunch of it comes from tourism. Yes that's right, North Korea is destination of choice for many Chinese to spend their holidays. It is by all accounts, a quite beautiful country. Are the Chinese shocked by the deprivation and people starving in the streets?
No? Why not? the Chinese are not an especially cruel and heartless people. They have a long history of famines and starvation. They know what it's like. So if a neighboring country was starving when they now have plenty, don't you thin they would be shipping massive amounts of food across the border?
And... telling the world about it so they look good on the international stage?
But that's not happening right? So why not?
Why would the West invade this country?
To prevent a nuclear war.
If that is the real reason, then they should be looking at other nuclear countries first - like India and Pakistan. While it may be that they are only ever going to nuke each other, the devastation of that exchange would dwarf anything North Korea could do.
But they won't do that, because the natural resources they want are not in those countries. The treasure is in North Korea. All they need to do is liberate it from the people.
I don't buy into the rhetoric that this is a failed state that needs taking down to 'save the rest of the world'. We only ever get one side of the story and that always makes me suspicious, and then I question the motives of those telling the story.
War is never a good outcome for anyone. It is a last resort to be used when everything else has failed.
Have we tried everything else?
No. No even close.
We have tried bullying them, starving them, isolating them, threatening them, and it hasn't worked. The people haven't revolted. Why?
Perhaps it is because they have been bullied, starved, isolated, threatened and as a nation they are united in their determination to resist the West. To stand proud as Koreans and defend their own way of life. A way of life that is made harder by the West, but it is still theirs. And in that way they are in fact free.
The West styles their leader as insane (remember this is not a western democracy, so the culture and practices are different), they see their leader as a symbol of defiance, strength, hope.
So when the American boots hit North Korean soil and the G.I.s wander in expecting the people to thrown down their weapons and embrace their liberators, just imaging their shock when they discover that every inch of soil will be defended to the death, with a fanaticism the West can not even dream of.
Vietnam will seem like a picnic compared to a war in North Korea.
I hope that my government has enough sense to keep right out of it.
So what can we do Trev? What smart thing can we do to fix this problem?
How about de-escalation?
I'm not talking appeasement. I'm talking about the West stopping being a bully and tying to get the North Koreans to be westerners. Give them a valid cause to calm down.
It could be something as simple as the West announcing that they have come to an agreement with China that it should manage the security and behavior of its neighbor. And China will be judged by the international community on its actions to stabilize the region. - local people solving local problems.
The US pulls out of the region and focuses its military elsewhere, like on all the other wars they have going on at the moment. or perhaps feeding its own people.
North Korea is no longer under threat, no longer needs to look strong. It has the protection of China and needs to toe the line with China in order to keep that protection. The North Koreans are free to be North Koreans and work quietly on re-unification with South Korea without western interference.
The constant threat of war is preventing this. The constant military buildup by the West is what is driving the nuclear program. This problem was created by the arrogance, ignorance and greed from the west.
Sound familiar? It should do, because the world we live in is a result of that same arrogance and ignorance and greed.
It's time to try something different, something brave, something that doesn't involve killing people.
I am grateful for this in depth answer.
I particularly like "lets try something brave, something that doesn't involve killing people"
Its often thought that bravery is in being able to kill and or not freak out and die when trying to be killed.
I admit there is opportunity for bravery there, yet it also seems that it is such a more "common" and in a way almost easier than say a non violent stand like Ghandi.
War is so common, fighting snd killing common, even outside of war.
I wholeheartedly agree that we must try something new, something for the greater good and stop justifying the same violent cycles over and over.
We shall see what happens. One thing is for sure humanity would be far better off if we discussed these things a lot more often and got involved in building the "better" way than complacently participating in the vicious cycle just because its "the way it is".
Wow that is an amazing answer! I'm not sure I agree and to be honest I don't think there is any possibility of the US pulling out of the region - so we will never know for sure.
Thanks :-)
No, the US will not give up its position in the region. There is too much at stake in terms of resources and strategic advantage.
As China rises and steps further onto the international stage as a super power, the US will see that as a threat and instead of welcoming them to the big game and playing nicely, they will do everything possible to protect their 'interests'.
Sanctions have never worked to bring a country to its knees. But good dialog, and acceptance of difference and hard work at compromise will usually achieve a desired result. All without a shot being fired.
The West is all too ready to use the 'war card' either as a threat or in fact, to solve what it sees as a problem. And it is always the people who have no say and no voice that suffer for it, never those who blow the trumpets of war.
I'm not a pacifist, I understand and support the military (I grew up in a military family). But when you decide to spend other people's lives to gain some advantage, you need to be very sure that the cost is worth it.
If my country was invaded, I would be first into the front line to defend it and its people. But I won't blindly march to the bugle call to put more money in someone else's pocket or to free a people that might not actually need or want me to 'free' them.
If there needs to be a war on the Korean Peninsular then let's make sure that it is the only option left and that the reasons are for true freedom, and not to allow for strip mining of resources or to open up markets for corporations to strip mine people.
Thank you for your wise words. I actually am pretty anti war and agree with nearly all of what you say. Part of my reason for making the post was to be quite provocative - a point many people don't seem to have realised.
My fear is that we are seeing a procession to war - what really scares me though is the prospect of having another country with nuclear capability because that makes the whole world unsafe.
Others on the thread have suggested that the best outcome might be internal regime change either due to people within the regime or some intervention from China which is at this point the only allie.
This is a very provocative issue and some great dialogue is already started!
I think that the regime in north korea and the regime in USA are both insane and its just a few people using everyone else to their advantage willing to sacrifice the masses for their game.
I dont think military action will be good but don't think doing nothing will be good either.
I pretty much mostly agree with everything @trevor.george says only thing that I would add is that the REAL solution I see is humanity having a revolution of consciousness and realizing that not only is war unnecessary but governments as we now have them, obsolete.
None of us have any where close to all the inside information. What we can pretty much guarantee is that if the USA starts war its not to help people its to profit.
So even if North Korea needs to be stopped, the use will not do it in any way resembling healthy or honorable unless we have some major revolution first.
The only real hope for something good out of this is from the people rising up. The governments are already proven grossly misguided.
Excellent points and to be honest I think most people know that I am very much anti war and violence - the thing that really worries me is the prospect of a potential nuclear war in the future. It seems instead of reducing nuclear weapons more countries keep getting them.
I think you are right in your suggestion. We really need to evolve ourselves beyond the point of our primitive control systems (governments) and our petty forms of dispute resolution (often violence either physical or other forms of threat). Sadly I don't see it coming any time soon.
Yes I have known you as "anti war" so was a bit surprised by the post yet at the same time in a way that gives a lot more credibility to the post or atleast even more worth considering if such an anti war type would put forth the possibility of war being "better"
I wouldn't call my self anti war I would just say that war is the biggest waste of resources on earth and if we didn't have it there would be no starving people or anyone without a house or healthcare.
I would also say that I am well aware that 99% of all war is a lie and really fought by super rich elite who create false flag or enemies to justify the war of many and power.
So while I am not against war I just am disgusted with the perimeters of which war is happening in this world. If there was actually a "real hero" who could help lead/save humanity and a war was necessary to rid us of the current control paradigm I would support it and even participate in it. However I am not going to believe any of the current governments in existence for the most part nor agree with the way in which the world is currently operating. Not just with war but education, sick care, real-estate, taxes, military, agriculture and on and on.
So we both know we need a true humanitarian revolution and unfortunately you are quite accurate in that it is not happening right nor or anytime very soon.
To much tv to watch and money to make/spend.
A very GREAT post though just in the fact of having such discussions. We as humanity need to have WAY more of this kind of discussion from a rational and open state of mind.
I always enjoy interacting with you. I have so much to do I had some resistance in participating in this discussion but felt that it was so important and that you are also such a keene mind that it would be a shame not to.
I am not grateful that I did and hope many others read through this if not join in them selfs.
Cheers~*~
I think many of us have become disillusioned because it seems that many wars are carried out for money as a business enterprise rather than a last resort to save lives or for defence.
I think it will have to happen eventually or we will wipe ourselves out.
Thanks. I think we do need to have discussions even when they make us uncomfortable in order to make progress.
Absolutely we need to discuss more, ESPECIALLY difficult topics!
Evolution WILL take place, hopefully it doesn't require us to almost totally destroy our selfs to get there.
Necessity breads change. Complacency doesn't.
U know...I was just thinking that the only really likely GOOD solution is an advanced race from another planet/dimension that saves humanity from them selfs.......Otherwise it looks like humanity is fucked hahaha
The problem with enforced regime change is that is de-stabilizes the regime and it will eventually lead to civil war, or conquest.
Take away the reasons for the North Korea to be so belligerent and encourage them to be a good, nice country, then everyone wins.
We seem to have forgotten that kindness ans compassion and understanding solves problems much more effectively than bullying and punishment.
So much of western society is vindictive in its outlook, that I think most people never even think of being nice to someone who is different from them, or who has less than them or who is going through tough times.
You see it so much online - the casual nastiness, the blaming, the need to ridicule and belittle anyone and everyone. There is no desire for understanding or empathy.
And then, in amongst all that dross, there are real diamonds, like yourself, who DO care, who DO try to be nice and understand people.
But those diamonds never make it into the halls of power. That domain is reserved for the bullies, and they are the ones making the decisions about where to send the diamonds to die. Just so they can take their bullying to the next level.
I would suggest it is not North Korea that needs change, it is us that needs change. We need to stop being afraid of everything, of possible futures, of possible failures, of difference. We need to stop beating the drums of war and start playing the pipes of peace (or at least the bagpipes).
We need to have a vision of the future that is not distopian, because if that's all we can see, that's all we will get.
I think we can all become nasty online though. I do it quite often. It is often due to misunderstandings and misreadings and I think that is what may be happening on a larger scale.
That said I think it is hard for us to understand an extreme dictatorship like North Korea - specifically why the people don't rise up and take control.
You, nasty? Never ;-)
Exactly! Why don;t they? Maybe because it is not actually as bad as the western media and governments would have us believe.
It my be a dictatorship. It is probably not a benevolent dictatorship. But for the average citizen life my not be any different under a democratic government.
A farmer will still be using the same plow, sowing the same seeds. The work will be just as hard, the sun just as hot, the rain just as wet. For those playing the power game, the personal stakes and risk may be higher than on a western democracy, but for the rest, life is the same is it always is.
The West talks of the population being starved. Looking at the photos 'smuggled' out of North Korea I don't see starving people. I see people who are not fat. I see people typical of a country whose primary industries are agricultural.
Meanwhile in the rich West, people are starving in the streets, and homeless and uncared for. Perhaps if the West were to put more effort into helping its own people - fighting the war against poverty, homelessness, depression and despair, then they might have amoral high ground to talk from.
But I see precious little compassion for the unfortunate and dispossessed in most western countries. There is however plenty of evidence of greed and corruption.
I may be proven wrong. But I do think that life in North Korea, while not the same as life in the West, is not as terrible as the warmongers would have us believe. And that is why the citizens have not risen up in revolt.
How soon before those dispossessed in the US rise up and overthrow their own dictatorship?