Is the good relative? Is it the justice? The Beauty?: An analysis on relativism

in #philosophy6 years ago

Already in the past I have dealt with the subject of relativity, a few weeks ago I made a publication that showed the absurdity of believing such a thing as truth is relative, which is why it is easily deduced that truth must necessarily be universal. Here I leave the link of that publication.

Today again I will venture to talk about relativism, but this time the idea in question will not be the truth, but the other ideas that are accused of relativity, those ideas that are more linked to the culture of the people, since although many can accept that the truth is not something relative, actually fewer and fewer are able to accept that something non-material is true, which in itself is a contradiction since the truth is not material, and if something no material is not true, the truth is not true, which, again, is an absurdity. But without going around the bush, let's leave the introductions and go once and for all to the development of the matter.

The argument of the relativists is quite simple; since different peoples, cultures, civilizations, as well as individuals, have understood the world in different ways, and because what some consider good, beautiful, just, etc., is not the same as what others consider, and that, on the contrary, the opinions of some and others have varied in each case, then it is postulated that there is no universal truth in any of these issues, since all these ideas are relative, and therefore, cannot be more than a subjective existence.

Although the premises are correct, and therefore there is a certain degree of reason in such a postulate, I am not one of those who share that opinion. Good and evil, as well as justice and injustice, beauty and ugliness, and all those ideas, are and can not be more than objective, the belief that such ideas are relative started, first, from a confusion in the use of the language that results in illusory appearances, and second, from an observation, although correct, unfocused.

But before we start to prove or disprove anything, we will have to resolve the semantic issues.

The first thing we must clarify is the meaning of the word "relative", because contrary to what many think, relative is not synonymous with subjective, in fact, relativity is not contrary, again as many think, to objectivity, and can go, as in fact they do, hand in hand.

But defining the three concepts in a summarized way, we can say that:

  • Relativity is that which is proper to the relation, that is, something is relative when it depends on being related to something else.

  • Subjectivity is that which is proper to the subject, that is, to the observer.

  • Objectivity is that which is proper to the object, it should be noted that the object is not always material, an idea can also be an object, such as "truth", "good", etc., and it is precisely these latter of the which we will speak today.

When we talk about relativity we refer to something that depends on the relation of several things, and therefore, varies depending on that relation, a good example of relativity to exemplify what we talk about would be the following; If I will be compared to the footballer Lionel Messi, who is 1.70 meters tall, I would be quite tall, but if I compare myself to the former basketball player Yao Ming, who is 2.29 meters tall, I would be quite low. In this way, it is said that height is relative.

This same argument is extrapolated by the relativists in all other questions. Just as I am considered tall if compared to Messi and low compared to Yao Ming, it is said that something is good in some places while in others, quite the opposite, it is said that while in some places something can be considered beautiful, in other places that same thing is considered ugly, and so on.

But what conclusion can we draw from here? Is the height really relative?

No, the height is not relative, my body did not grow or became smaller by that comparison, my body always remained the same size, the height is objective.

How is it possible then for me to be higher or lower when comparing myself with different people?

People are higher or lower in comparison because they are being compared with other things that have height, but they are not being compared with the height itself. If you want to know in an objective way how tall you are, without illusory results of relativity, you don't go to the street to find people with whom to measure yourself, much less seek things, because then the measures will vary and the results will be relative; "I measure a refrigerator", "I measure a Peter and a half", etc., when you want to know how tall you are, you look for a tape measure and you measure yourself.

With respect to other questions of which relativity is alleged, as with good, justice, and the rest, usually we are not talking about relativity, but that, as is common, it is confusing relativity with subjectivity, which leads many to say things like "what you think is good, is not what I think is good, and what others think is good, therefore, good is relative", however, relativity has nothing to do with that sentence, it would be in any case that the good is subjective, that is, it varies depending on the subject, and not on the relation.

But that argument, which is widely used by relativists, has a slight error; the truth, which is objective, is being confused with opinion, which is subjective. It really does not matter what people say or believe, it matters what it is. A man can believe that he is a dog, he can act as a dog and bark like a dog, everyone can tell him that he is a dog, but he will never be a dog, he will always be a man.

In the same way, it does not matter what they say here and there about good, no matter what one or the other believes is good, only good in itself matters.

Confusing opinion with the truth is a very common mistake, as well as very catastrophic, if we want to be sure of something we must resort to logic and reason, not to opinion, regardless of whether the latter is shared by the experts or the majority. 2+2 will always be 4, it does not matter if the majority says it is 5, or if the experts say it is 3.

How can we know then if there is good? How can we also know these same questions about all other ideas?

Simple, although not so simple, let's do some mental exercises; Can you see the numbers ?, and I mean the numbers itself, not their graphical representation (1, 2, 3...) or anything like that, I mean the numbers itself, the idea of numbers. Can you see the one? Touch it? Smell it? Can you hear it? Can you taste the one?

Neither you nor anyone can do any of these things, however, we can know that numbers exist, and exist in all things; we can go to the living room of our house and count the furniture, count the chairs, count all other things. You will see that each chair in your house is a chair, but it can also be "one" if it is necessary, and that all material objects are countable, they can be counted.

In the same way, can you see the height? You will see again that no one can touch the height, and I speak of the height itself, no one can smell the height, see it, etc., but everything physically existing has height. The same goes for depth, width, beauty, justice, good, etc.

So all these ideas are present in every existing thing, in everything we see, in everything we smell, in everything we touch, what we hear, etc., how can we say then that these things don't exist, or that they are relative or subjective, if they are present everywhere and in all things?

Although these things don't occupy any space, they are manifested in all space, and while none of these things can physically be in itself, they manifest in all physical things.

The chair is not "one" and is not "height", although the chair has height and has oneness/unity, the chair is not "width" but if it is "wide", the chair is not "redness" but is "red", and so with everything else.

In this way we can know that all these ideas exist, and although we cannot see them directly, that is, we cannot know them through sensations, we can see their reflection in all things, and we can know them through abstraction. And don't confuse the latter, all these ideas are not abstractions, but it is through the abstraction we can know about them.

After all; Can there be something beautiful without the beauty? Can there be something red without the redness? Can there be something tall/high without the height? You will see that for something to possess a quality, it is necessary that such a quality exists.

So, beauty is not an abstraction, but if we can abstract the beauty that has something and in this way know that beauty exists, without confusing "the beautiful" with "the beauty", which are two different things, since "the beautiful" is anything that has beauty, and "the beauty" is a quality that exists in an objective way and from which we can know its existence precisely because it is reflected in "the beautiful".

To conclude, let's review what we have constituted up to now; ideas such as beauty, height, justice and all others, are not relative, neither subjective, but they are objective, they exist and they are perceived through intellection, unlike the common objects that are perceived through the sensation .

I would not like to finish without clarifying two questions, that although I have already clarified them throughout this post, I feel that they can be ignored or perhaps I have not clarified them enough yet, therefore, I need to clarify them in such a way that the writing is not incomplete.

The relativists have two main premises namely, the first, that the conception of the good in modernity is different from those of the past, and the second, that the conception of the good varies and has varied by regions, and the same has happened with all the other ideas, and note that I don't refer now to subjective opinions shared by individuals, but to relative conceptions shared by collectives. Is not this sufficient proof that the good is relative and therefore there are no universal truths in such matters?

As we clarified before, the good is not and cannot be relative, but to make a strong response to that argument, I believe that with an example I will leave in evidence the absurdity of such an approach.

Let's do this mental exercise for a moment, taking into account only one data; On January 6, 2019 there will be a solar eclipse in Northeastern Asia.

If I told you that today there will be a solar eclipse in Northeastern Asia, I would be lying, but if I said exactly the same thing on January 6, 2019 then I would be telling the truth. Is then relative the truth for this? How is it possible that the same action is done, exactly the same, and in one occasion may be wrong and not in the other?

Now, if we placed ourselves on January 6, 2019, and I told you that over my head, considering that I live in Venezuela, there will be a solar eclipse, then I would lie, but if I did exactly the same action in Northeastern Asia I would be saying the truth. Again, I wonder; how is this possible, if I am doing the same action, how is it possible that once I am wrong and the other is not?

This is exactly what the relativists argue, if we followed their logic the truth was relative, but as we saw, it was not the truth that changed, the solar eclipse would be in all cases on January 6, 2019 in Northeastern Asia, the only thing that changed were the circumstances, and being different circumstances you should say different things and do different actions to be aligned with the truth, not because of this the truth changed or became relative.

The space-time is a very large variable to be ignored, in fact, we cannot say that two actions are the same, although apparently they look similar, if they are done in different places or times. This variation in circumstances creates the illusion of relativity in things, a relativity that does not exist, since the actions are totally different if they are done in a different space-time.

Now, once and for all, we can say that we have resolved the questions regarding this issue, and we can say without fear of making a mistake that none of these ideas is relative or subjective, and that on the contrary they are all objective, however, if you still have some doubt or if you are of a different opinion or contrary to mine, don't hesitate to comment and let me know.


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Very engaging post. Without getting overly academic, I think it's fairly complicated trying to understand the nature of relativism without getting into a semantical quibble. When someone says "the truth is relative" it's sort of a vague statement because it can either mean there is no truth, which is of course self-refuting, or in a more general way, it could mean truth while necessarily universal, depends on perspective, which I believe is a better assessment of what something being relative actually means.

Like you say, relativity and objectivity go hand in hand. You can see things for what they really are—the objective truth, by understanding how ones perspective may influence what is seen. If I come from a tradition where violence toward others is rewarded and even accepted as normal, it's likely I will think a "might makes right" moral doctrine is the truth when it comes to a universal ethical system. On the other hand, if I come from a society where respect for the individual and free association is the norm, something like the non-aggression principle or the golden rule will be how I see that moral truth. You can also come from either of these and have the opposite belief, regardless of what the rest think.

The objective truth here is that depending on your upbringing, education, or how the furniture of your mind is arranged so to speak, you will have different conceptions and methods of what something means to be true when it comes to morality; and this may as well be the case with justice, beauty, science, etc... Perhaps this doesn't apply to all situations and examples. 2+2 will always be 4 because it's tautology that requires the same answer, though this doesn't mean one day or somewhere else they will have a different evaluation of quantity. Also, just because things depend on perspectives does't mean they are all equally valid. Peace compared to violence is a lot more stable and successful from a pragmatic point of view.

Let me know if you think I am off base here or am missing something.

We are, in general terms, quite agree.

I think, in effect, that not only objectivity and relativity go hand in hand, but also with subjectivity, since to know an object, we must first be a subject, and there must also be a relation (between the subject and the object).

What I don't believe is that the objects are proper to the relation (relativity), nor that they are proper to the subject (subjectivity), because in both cases, there would be no such object, but rather a relative or subjective illusion.

I think the correct way to say it would be as follows; truth is objective, our perception of truth is subjective, and what is true and what is not is relative.

But truth can not be subjective or relative, just as our perception of truth can not be objective or relative, and just as what is true and what is false can not be objective or subjective.

I make a clear distinction between the quality (beauty, truth, etc.) and what has that quality (the beautiful, the true, etc.), because they are two different things, the first is objective and the second is relative.

You can see this in the example I give at the end of the post about the solar eclipse, while some words were true or false depending on the circumstances, the truth never changed. But if we get confused by this and say that the truth is relative, when it is not, then all the conclusions we reach will be wrong.

I think that the illusion of relativity in things is given, first by such confusion, and second, by the lack of context, the latter creates a lot of confusion, because two people may be speaking in different contexts, and not being able to reaching an agreement creates the illusion of relativity or subjectivity.

For example, I could say that a hammer is more useful than a car, and could perfectly well be right, it is only necessary to know the context, a hammer is more useful to hammer, and a car is more useful to transport, but if we do not define the "useful for what?", then, the illusion of relativity will be created.

Someone could say that utility is relative for that, but it is not true, because in reality we were talking about two different types of utilities, that although we use the same words, it does not mean that we refer to the same concept.

And we can see if we compare two things in the same concept of utility, for example, two hammers, we see that some hammers are more useful than others, which could not happen if the utility were relative.

I'm with you on this. There is a difference between how terms are used and how they are defined on the other hand. We know that this is not always the same. Where the word stem of "relativity" can also be focused differently: actually on the relation, so in what relation is a crab related to a lobster, for instance? And how does a frog relate to these two? And where am I as a human being in relation to them?

Classical logic starts from being. A statement is either true or false. The acceptance of the paradox, for which I plead, reintroduces the dynamics of states. One no longer speaks of the being of a state, but of becoming, integrating the temporal dimension. A flip-flop mechanism arises: the yes generates the no, the no generates the yes. The truth of a statement generates falsehood; and falsehood generates truth.

https://www.heise.de/tp/features/Wir-sehen-nicht-dass-wir-nicht-sehen-3446178.html (German)

When I say that morality is relative, I mean exactly what you say: it is subjective. Here self-reference is at work, and it's basically not as important as exactly how someone uses a term, or even applies it completely wrongly, if the message behind it is understood by me.

I can argue that terms are constantly misused, but that doesn't help me to understand each other if the other understands my correction of his use of terms as "unfriendly".

Do you not also feel that something is stirring inside you, scratching you when you hear or read a very conclusive definition of something and then feel the impulse that despite all the conclusiveness you see a certain firmness in it that you want to dissolve again? For example, I can be for abortion and represent it hot. But then someone comes and represents it just as hot and I suddenly feel that this so convinced attitude leaves something out. I am already inclined to say exactly the opposite of what I said before. I find this flip-flop comparison by Heinz von Förster very interesting and it corresponds to human experience.

But how I actually stand on the subject of abortion cannot have anything to do with this or any other definition. The moment I am confronted with a pregnancy in reality, these theoretical arguments become insignificant because I suddenly have to ask myself a highly personal question: how do I deal with carrying an unwanted child in my body?

Most of the time we discuss things that have not yet happened in our personal lives (as we already have said:). Or they have happened and we have a hard time with the decision we once made.

People loathe it when you treat them as if it doesn't matter whether they decide this way or that way. This observed lax use of "this is all relative" is like a kind of forced position on all the observable determinism. But these "both" are mutually dependent. The flip causes the flop and the flop causes the flip.

I agree that it is useless to seek to refute something simply because of the misuse of words, if at the end of the day the message that is transmitted through that is valid. Although that is not what I was trying to do, I just wanted to establish the bases so that nothing was misinterpreted.

Interesting addition that you do with the flip and flop, although I think both relativism and determinism, instead of being opposite, are a kind of complementary, which start as a reaction to the religious universalism of the past. Relativism and determinism usually have something in common, the lack of responsibility of people in their actions, since if everything is relative, nothing really matters, and if everything is determined, what you do is the only thing you could do.

What do you mean when you say that morality is subjective?

Relativism and determinism create one another. That is what I indeed meant. What is accompanied by them is to state something opposite towards one another. Even though my former opinion was of the same that the other person just stated, his deterministic appearance in the given moment makes me taking now the opposite side.

Lets take the example of a marriage. I have, for instance, the inner conviction that betraying a wife or a husband is bad in principle. But then I hear my friend saying that our common friend should be openly criticized, even dismissed, for his betrayal. That all betrayal is bad and should therefore not be tolerated. This provokes me to take on a different position because I perceive a very hard position on his side. Whereas I would be critical in a conversation with another friend of mine who says that betrayal in a marriage is nothing of a big deal.

What do you mean when you say that morality is subjective?

I agreed with what you said in your text about subjectivity.
That for example it's a moral code to punish a person which betrayed his marriage. From the subjektive perspective of a person which believes in punishment compared with another person which believes punishment is wrong, both are right. They consider the possible consequences for the community as a whole. Both fear that morality is in danger. The one is afraid that without punishment marriages will become less valuable, everything falls apart, rules become less important, while the other one is afraid that the couple stays only together because they fear to be punished (criticized, letting down pants) and therefore lead rather a bad relationship and also hurt the social group (for instance, their children suffer and behave bad in school etc. etc.).

A beautiful, well considered post Vieira.

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I don't want to get in a long drawn out debate about this because I don't have much time right now, though you did invite me over here and I figured I'd respond to a couple points.

You will see that for something to possess a quality, it is necessary that such a quality exists.

Or a "perception" of a quality exists.

Now, once and for all, we can say that we have resolved the questions regarding this issue, and we can say without fear of making a mistake that none of these ideas is relative or subjective, and that on the contrary they are all objective

I actually think they might be both objective and subjective or perhaps even more. In my research I've found things are often a mix or combination or shades of grey and not so black and white.

I respect your belief though. :) I don't have any desire to try to prove what I've said as I think some issues are beyond the ability for humans to prove. I try to stay open minded and consider the possibilities and the more I learn in life the less I realize I know.

PS... Good article by the way. I did appreciate it and I agreed with a lot of what you said even if I'm not in 100% agreement. Peace!

In fact, we agree more according to what you say than disagree. I also believe that there is something objective (the thing itself), something subjective (our perception of the thing) and something else that is relative (the union of the subject and the object).

But anyway, thanks again.

Ah! I see. Good to know. Looks like we are in more agreement than I thought. You're welcome and... Thanks for explaining your perspective as well! :)

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