Morality: Only Subjective Or Objective?steemCreated with Sketch.

in #philosophy8 years ago (edited)

I am taking a Coursera course on Philosophy and while watching a lecture, it discussed whether morality is objective or subjective. It went on to point out that there are three general schools of thought on this.
What seems to be lacking from these is a compromise based on the inherent flaw of humanity(and any consciousness) that we cannot perceive outside of our own perception and, as such, we cannot truly know that what we perceive is objective or not. Even with empirical evidence and judgments, we are bound by what and how we perceive the world around us and so we must accept a degree of relativism, even in that the sun rises in the East. While considered to be objectively and empirically true, it is still a judgment based on human perception and thus is subject to relative thought and judgment.

As such, I wrote down my thoughts on this. I don't know if this corresponds to some subset of philosophical thought, but this was my initial reaction to the apparent division in the schools of philosophy regarding morality:

"Most every person/group who commits an immoral action can rationalize that action as somehow moral, thus perception plays an important part in the morality of the individual and the group.
While there may be an 'objective morality', we may only proceed based upon our individual and collective perceptions making moral judgments a product of relative thought rather than objective observation.
In other words, we cannot show an example of morality in the world outside of human perception, thus we can only determine morality based on human perception. While we may perceive something to be moral and have that correspond with the proposed 'objective morality' that is no evidence that we have concluded such morality objectively as we cannot point to any objective evidence to support such morality, it is all based purely on our perception.
Therefore, 'objective morality' or not, we can only determine morality in a relative sense."

In this edit, I am including this thought that occurred to me as I continued the lesson:

"If something must be have an objective 'true/false' paradigm, then morality may only be objective in situations in which there is a clear 'true/false' answer. More specifically, the issue of morality is an issue of 'harm' versus 'non-harm'. Typically, the claim of something being immoral is that it is somehow 'harmful'.

For instance, genocide has a clear 'true/false' answer: does genocide necessarily result in the undesired harm of another? Yes. The 'victim' of genocide does not wish such harm and so it may be objectively immoral to commit genocide.
Meanwhile the issue of polygamy has no clear 'true/false' answer. While many may claim that it is 'harmful' to society, there is little if any direct harm upon those involved in polygamy and less so of those not directly involved. The 'harm' is more likely a result of perception of the morality of polygamy than it is of actual, objective harm. Thus the issue of polygamy is a matter of 'relative' morality in that its morality(harm/non-harm) results from perspective rather than being an unavoidable result of the act.

However, even this is subject to relativism as the harm done to the unconsenting person(s) may be found to be 'moral' because it is done in defense of other person(s). For instance, a woman who 'harms' her attacker, who does not consent to the 'harm' is not considered immoral because her 'harm' was in response to the attacker's intent to 'harm'. And so, again, morality, even based on this 'true/false' paradigm of 'harm/non-harm' is still subject to perception and thus is relative. "

I would love some opinions on this.

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"Objectivity" is impossible, it is an absolute. Or more precisely, it is a limit which like lightspeed costs more energy the closer you try to get.

Morality is really about understanding the laws of cause and effect within human society. Utility is the only metric of effectiveness and even in this, the subjective utility can obscure the general utility, which may mean that a subjective view from some perspective is accepted though more information would reveal the better utility comes from a broader perspective.

Ultimately all life feeds other life. What may seem wrong from one perspective is necessary in another. Better understanding brings us the ability to make judgements about morality that yield better outcomes for more people.

Murder is said to be immoral, but why is that? What reason supports the concept of private property versus no property?

I say the answer is simply that what is moral has the greatest general benefits to all involved. Utility, results. It takes a long time and struggle as some people benefit from persuading people to adopt morals that in fact destroy, and produce bad results, impoverishing all, this makes it harder for the right prescription to be discovered.

I firmly agree simply because we cannot be 'objective'. We are a part of the human experiment and so all that we sense, determine, believe, observe, is the result of our individual and shared perceptions. Granted, there may be an 'objective' reality and even an 'objective' morality but we can never fully determine that to be the case since we cannot step outside of our perception, as persons or as people.

However, I added to this thought, as can be seen above, in which I came upon the idea that there could be an 'objective' morality if we consider morality to be a question of 'harmful vs. non-harmful'. That which is harmful is immoral. That which is non-harmful(or beneficial) is moral.
If we place this standard then we now have an method to 'weigh' the morality of actions 'objectively'.

If the action is necessarily harmful to unconsenting persons, it can be seen as 'objectively' immoral regardless of the relative 'morality' perceived by the actor. If it is not necessarily harmful(even if it may be perceived as 'harmful' but without any evidence to that perception), then it is not objectively immoral and is subject to the perceptions of those judging it one way or another.

Subjectivity makes such criteria dangerous because of their absoluteness. The right way is based on the simple ruleset that establishes property rights and then you inspect the evidence to determine who violated who.

This is why most rules are wrong, also, because they start from elastic definitions that can render the opposite of justice. Needing rules is the least reason for government. Most simply legitimise what would otherwise be considered wrong.

To me, moral means to respect legitimate claims and make those who violate make reasonable efforts to return what is taken.

Again, I agree. However, this is still the realm of perception and not a matter of objective reality.

You can believe that your legitimate claims should be respected, but I have no reason to accept that other than because I choose to accept that. Perhaps I see my claim over what you have claimed as legitimate and I believe it supercedes your claim. How then do we resolve this? We both believe we are morally claiming something and that the other is immorally claiming what is ours.

Our belief in the morality of our claims is, honestly, irrelevant. Either we will appeal to a person or persons to mediate the dispute or we will engage in some sort of conflict in which one of us eventually cedes or becomes unable to continue to make our claim.
But does this make the 'victor' more moral than the other? If you manage to get our mediators to side with you, does that mean you're claim was moral? If I manage to make you cede claims or injure or kill you to end your claim, does that make my claim moral?

Not at all.

At the end of the day, it's about the result. Moral or not, the result is the result. And it can be contested in the future. But for the present, it changes nothing and that will still be true even if it is contested in the future.

Essentially, I think that every person should try to develop a sense of morality that is most beneficial for them and least harmful for others and I think that is the best way to determine morality but, at the end of the day, it's a non-point. Morality aside, what results from conflict and non-conflict is completely independent of morality, ethics, principles, legitimacy, or even 'rights' and freedom.

So, yes, that morals may be relative is a dangerous notion, but does that make it any less true? Freedom is a dangerous notion... If anything, it seems the more true something is, the more risk there is in believing and adhering to it. But that's just my opinion? lol

As such, I wrote down my thoughts on this. I don't know if this corresponds to some subset of philosophical thought

just as you called it: 'moral relativism'or moral/ethical relativism. It gets mucky to not chop up morality debate into finer pieces; utilitarian, consequential, etc.

I've no formal learning in philosophy, myself. I prefer philosphical fiction than strictly philosophical papers (for the most part). how is that Coursera course? Is it an intro to philosophy?

From your post and replies I think you are mostly concerned with being/ontology and existential views, correct? Maybe even moral nihilism?

It is an intro and I am enjoying it.

I don't know that I'm a moral nihilist, though I have called myself a 'hopeful nihilist' from time to time in that I'm pretty sure that there's no point to any of this and it doesn't matter, but I'm hoping I'm wrong and so I act as though it may matter.
I believe that morality, the morality we can discuss, debate and act upon, is purely subject to perspective, both individual and collective. If there is an objective morality, there is no evidence of it that we can point to outside of ourselves and society and cultures. Unless we consider the way of the natural world, sans mankind, to be an example of morality, and then morality has nothing to do with consent, injury or death. It is simply survival and what it takes to achieve that both individually and as a species since, in nature, we see that the 'morality', if it is that, allows for rape, murder, theft, neglect, et cetera, all to serve the purpose of the individual's own survival and the overall survival of the species and, thus, systems it is involved in.

All that said, I believe that, though morality be relative, that does not mean that this is a justification to moralize things such as rape and murder. While one is certainly free to do so, those that perceive this morality to be, in 'fact', immoral are free to not only disagree but to intercede and at upon their own morality in attempts to deter, prevent, subdue and end the threat such a moralization of rape presents to individuals, communities and society at large.
Perhaps to put it, hopefully, more simply, I believe that our moralities are relative culturally and individually but that the prevailing moralities and overlaps in moralities will be the normative morality at the time and in the place and thus may be used, in that time and place, to determine, to a degree, morality.

However, even this fails to truly encompass what I 'believe' in this vein as I do not believe that accepted notions of 'morality' or norms are, in fact, moral. My morals say that, above all else, what is moral does not cause undue harm to the unconsenting accept when necessary to protect oneself or another.

As I pointed out above, there is no way to create a truly static normative definition of morality in order to then be able to derive what is or is not moral on a 'universal' scale per cultural and individual perception. Morality is, in addition to being relative in all practicality, fluid. It changes with our perception and with the perceptions of the culture.

And this is where Kant likely helps to describe much of my outlook, intellectual autonomy. I weigh and determine the credibility of things based on my own reasoning and rationale. Often, I will oppose the norm simply because I find it to be lacking in reason, logic or rational thought.

Rants aside, I really don't know where I stand in terms of philosophical position. I see credibility in many 'opposing' principles and schools of thought and often forge my own 'hybridized' lines of reasoning based on those and my own experience and perception. While I am not arrogant enough to believe that my conclusions are truly unique, I will say that I have not read the book, paper, or statement that emulates how I view the world in these things, as well or better than I can vocalize them.

It sounds like you have a mash-up of rationalism, constructivism, and nihilism. I'm enjoying trying to place your ideas within a schema. If you have been reading mostly the older philosophical works like Kant , I don't think that you'd find a definite ethos there; being living in a time where post-modern questions arise. Have you read any Foucault?

Are you attempting to develop an ethos of sorts? What is bringing you to philosophy?

There are lots of Ayn Rand fans around Steemit; if you consider reason, logic, rational thought one of the highest functions/values. Is she mentioned in the Coursera syllabus? I'm interested to learn more about her. I want to refute her stubborn rationalist thought. I don't think that rationalism is the highest virtue of thought to strive for. We can't seperate ourselves from the primordial functions of mind, I think we live less full lives doing so, not more. I want to deconstruct it, and learn the arguments against rationalism which are out there.

I'm also having fun trying to define active nihilism; where nihilism as an ethos is non-contradictory. But I don't want to read tons of dry philosophy to do it. I think I will reread Crime and Punishment to start. Do you like philosophical fiction or you prefer learning theory 'straight-up'?

“He [Foucault] struck my as completely amoral,” said Chomsky. “I’d never met anyone who was so totally amoral.”

http://www.critical-theory.com/that-time-foucault-got-paid-in-hash-to-debate-noam-chomsky/

It seems this course is focusing on the more 'classical' works. I do find some purchase with more modern philosophers such as Rand but even they fail to 'epitomize' how I see things. Which is to be expected. I find it a ridiculous notion to think that any two people would so completely share a philosophical view on life as to not find disagreements in that philosophy. It is my opinion that, in my opinion, like morals, ethics, 'rights' and principles, philosophy is little more than a manmade concept turned social construct that is nearly, if not entirely, dependent on perspective and is thusly fluid and not to be completely shared with any other person.
We each have our own perspectives, uniquely tweaked here and there by our past, memories, thoughts, ruminations, culture and everything else that makes the us in the present, us.

Therefore I don't expect to 'find' a philosophy I fit into. Rather, I expect to learn all I can about what has been thought and said on the subjects and make my own conclusions and forge my own paths forward from what is already available.
In that sense, I think I am very amiable to the basic premise of Kant in that I don't simply accept things as they are presented, I base my perspectives on what I think about what is presented in addition to all else that I have knowledge about. I may be open to what others think and say but I will run it all through the filter of my own perception and allow myself to dissolve it through reasoned and logical thought until I produce whatever 'substance' may result.
Often I find myself at odds with most others, often I find myself between those at odds. Rarely do I find myself unequivocally standing shoulder to shoulder with anyone.

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