The Pinocchio Paradox and Possibility, Objectivity and Truth

in #philosophy7 years ago (edited)

If Pinocchio would utter the statement "My nose is going to grow now", it is going to cause a paradox. That's a pretty straight-forward paradox that you have probably heard of. If the statement is true, his nose shouldn't grow, but if his nose wouldn't grow than the statement would be false. If the statement is false, his nose should grow, but if his nose would grow, the statement would be true.

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Thinking about such paradoxes is always interesting because it shows us that our understanding of something in the world might actually be questionable. I personally think that a paradox like this shows that there is something wrong with some of the concepts we are using and the way we are applying them. In a way, the absurdity of a paradox comes from our understanding and not neccessarily form a real and grounded contradiction.

Possibility and Impossibility

Let's examine the Pinocchio Paradox in the most trivial of ways first. What we can say to characterize the situation is that it is in fact conceivable, but we can't really say that it is possible. What the paradox postulates is actually a type of system that is most likely physically impossible. Pinocchio's nose must be some real object that has the property of reliably distinguishing between a false and a true statement virtually instantaneously.

Since Pinocchio could utter statements involving the whole universe, this object would require both data about the whole universe and the computing power to determine if a specific statement about it is true or false. An object of that size simply would not have enough particles to allow for neither the computing power, nor the data required from such calculations. This means that by looking at the laws of physics that we are aware of, we can determine that such object is physically impossible.

So if we want to approach this paradox from the standpoint of physical reality, not just statements and logic, this paradox is in fact an impossible scenario. Pinocchio's nose is an object that simply is outside of the realm of possibility. If that is the case, even if we want to apply logic to it, we can't expect the results to make any sense as the premise we are starting with has been demonstrated to contradict reality and to not make sense itself.

This is why possibility and conceivability are not equivalent and not everything we can imagine even in an infinite universe is actually possible. The possibility and impossibility of something both require demonstration and substantiation and cannot simply be postulated. For instance, we can look at the claim that some god exists. Someone can say that it is possible for this statement to be true and I guess that is OK to say. But is it really fair to say "It is possible for a god to exist". I would say that this would be fair to say only after the possibility of a god actually existing is somehow demonstrated. Until then, the idea of a god is conceivable, but it might be just like Pinocchio's nose - something that simply couldn't really exist and is thus impossible.

Of course, while this approach to the Pinocchio Paradox might be yielding interesting topics of discussion, one could say that it is far too trivial to approach a thought experiment (which any paradox basically is) from the point of view of its possibility. After all, of course this is not possible, Pinocchio is a fictional character living in a fictional and magical world. This doesn't mean that asking the question about this impossible situation doesn't make sense or doesn't pose other interesting questions.

Objectivity and Subjectivity

Well, then we come to the question of how do you really establish what is a lie. Pinocchio's nose is supposed to grow only when he lies. But should it grow if Pinocchio unknowingly utters a false statement while believing it was true? Or when he is simply unsure? If his nose would only grow when he lies, then his nose will grow not based on the truthfulness of his statement, but based on his intentions. So the existence of the paradox suddenly hinges on the reason Pinocchio is making the statement in the first place, his internal conscious attitude toward the statement, his beliefs of its truthfulness and his goal and object of communication. This opens the door to a certain level of subjectivity and the need of somewhat conscious assessment. Or at least an impartial and supposedly objective assessment of Pinocchio's internal and possibly subjective state of consciousness.

One could argue that if we are truly in an imaginary world, we could postulate an all-knowing nose that would be aware of his intentions and the paradox will remain a paradox. While objective truthfulness of a statement might be something a supposedly all-knowing nose could determine, intention, lying and trying to deceive or mislead are not necessarily binary and can't always be expected to adhere to the boolean true vs false paradigm. In fact, Pinocchio might be making the statement because he has become aware of the paradox and might be testing his nose with the expectation that his nose would grow, but without really being convinced of the likelihood of either outcome. In this case, is he lying or saying the truth? Is he trying to mislead his nose to reveal additional information to him? Absolute objectivity when dealing with such concepts is simply not attainable.

Additionally, I think we can reasonably come to the conclusion that Pinocchio might make a false statement without an intention to deceive, so it shouldn't really be a paradox for him to say that his nose is going to grow while his nose decides to stay the same length. If he sincerely believed that the paradox was going to make his nose grow for some reason, his statement might not have been a lie. And if his statement was not a lie, his nose was not supposed to grow. So the statement could be false and not a lie at the same time and there wouldn't really be much of a paradox.

Since it's quite reasonable to expect that under different criteria to assess what is a lie and what is simply a false statement that does not constitute a lie, there would be opposing assessments of the same statement. And since there is no way to objectively establish the criteria, the whole assessment becomes quite subjective.

This only highlights further the need for clear definitions and sound concepts that correspond to reality or make sense according to certain hopefully objective criteria. It is in fact essential to distinguish between lying and being incorrect. Determining that something is true requires an assessment of facts and reality. Lying on the other hand requires for us not to just look at the facts, but to pass subjective judgment on the intention of the speaker and often actually includes a moral element.

Truth and Falsehood

But we can in fact easily do away with all this definitional subjectivity by slightly modifying Pinocchio's nose. If his nose grows only when he utters a false statement, regardless of his intentions we are finally faced with the full weight of the paradox and it becomes harder to get away from it by just examining the boundaries and definitions of the concepts it hinges on.

To finally add some history and to give some credit to the person that came up with it, we should mention that the Pinocchio Paradox is not absolutely unique - it's actually a version of the Liar Paradox where a person that always lies would say "I'm lying". It was thought up by Veronique Eldridge-Smith at the tender age of 11 when her father, the logician and philosopher Peter Eldridge-Smith, explained the Liar Paradox to her and her brother and asked them to come up with their own examples of it. The father realized it was actually an interesting proposition and an interesting modification on the original paradox and published a paper about it.

If we want to look at the Pinocchio Paradox not by criticizing its physical or conceptual limitations, but by looking at the underlying logical and mathematical consequences, we will arrive at Gödel's first incompleteness theorem. Gödel actually used a modification of the Liar Paradox to show that there are in fact things that are bound to remain unprovable and thus unknowable. My interpretation of this is that the intrinsic mathematical problem with the Pinocchio Paradox is that it requires an impossible determination. Knowing if the statement is true is impossible much like it's likely impossible that one could determine the final digit of Pi. There are just infinite regressions that cannot be solved and many other things that are both mathematically and physically unknowable.

This has a very important implication about truth in general that is easy to forget. Sometimes we not only don't know what the truth about something is, it is in fact utterly and intrinsically impossible for us to determine what the truth in that case is. And when we encounter such statements, we should accept the apparent paradox. In those cases we should accept the fact that we don't and can't know instead of inventing explanations or declaring the fact that a real determination cannot be made entails some contradiction. In fact, such paradoxes are more likely to contradict our incorrect intuitions about the universe and the laws that govern it than to contradict the laws themselves.

I hope this examination of the Pinocchio Paradox has raised some valid questions about what is possible, real, objective or true and I think examining those concepts through the lens of a paradox like that can actually help us further our understanding of what they actually are.

Image credits: [1] | [2] | [3] | [4] | [5]


Do you agree? What was I wrong about? Let me know :)


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Great post. unfortunately I only find it now that the voting is over. Followed you anyway. I'm into philosophy as well. I'd like to add to your story that in fact there is no objective reality or truth, only a consensus reality. Quantum mechanics made clear that if you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change.

Thank you for you kind comment! I'm happy you noticed the age of the post and didn't waste your vote on it ;)

I was on vacation until recently, but I should start posting again regularly very soon and I'll be happy to read your comments on my future posts.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by a consensus reality. If it is a way to acknowledge the problem of solipsism, then I might be inclined to agree. But bar for this limitation, I do think we share an objective reality.

But I would strongly disagree with your statement about quantum mechanics. While quantum mechanics is a rigorous mathematical model that allows us to predict events with great precision, we don't have a clear mental picture to associate with it yet and there is no leading interpretation that can be pointed out as the clear explanation for where it arises from and what this means. In that sense there is nothing that quantum mechanics can show us clearly. ;)

But to go deeper into the substance of what you seem to be saying, the idea that looking at things changes them is basically a misunderstanding propagated by people that don't really understand quantum mechanics and the way the word observer is used in that context. Switching a particle from a cloud of probabilities or a wave into a specific location is not brought on by observation or looking at something in the same way that you and I would look at something. Looking at things on the quantum levels is indeed measuring them which is in turn interacting with them. When you and I look at things, we feel it's something passive that doesn't change the object we are looking at. But this works only for objects that can reflect photons back to our eyes that our retinas can absorb. But if you want to measure a single electron, you can't shower it with photons (light) and look at a reflection. To measure a single electron you have to interact with it somehow and even the smallest interaction at that scale is bound to change the electron somehow. That's what looking at things is at the quantum scale, but it is in fact fallacious to extend that to broader philosophical concepts especially to our concepts of observation, consciousness and so on.

Basically the whole quantum observer thing is woo based on a misunderstanding of a word and wishful interpretation. As far as quantum mechanics goes, a useful rule of thumb is that if your interpretation fits the one of Deepak Chopra or What The Bleep Do We Know, it's based on misconceptions and insufficient understanding.

Of course, I hope that we'll be able to discuss this type of topics in the future under my, your or other people's posts on all kinds of fascinating topics! :) I'm looking forward to it...

What about the experiments by Dean Radin, showing that focussed intent had a statistically significant influence on the outcome of certain delayed choice variants of the double slit experiments? Btw I think QM is still open for interpretation. I have sympathy for pilot wave theories as well. Further I consider objective reality as unproven as an interference pattern of subjective realities, which could lead to a kind of common consensus we call reality. A lot of scientific theories if not all are based on certain assumptions, which can turn out to be wrong interpretations of data at a later stage.Let's say I am agnostic with a preference for panpsychic hypotheses.

Thank you for your reply :)

What about the experiments by Dean Radin, showing that focussed intent had a statistically significant influence on the outcome of certain delayed choice variants of the double slit experiments?

As far as I know, none of the intention experiments have been shown to be repeatable. A single experiment from a single source is a question at best. You need multiple experiments that are reliably and consistently repeatable to claim an answer. As far as I'm aware of claims like this made in the past, there have been other experiments showing no correlation with intention.

Btw I think QM is still open for interpretation.

I agree. This doesn't mean that one could claim any interpretation just because they feel like it or because it furthers their "alternative science" career. For now we have to admit that the jury is still out on the possible interpretations and that might remain the case for some time now until somebody finds a way to pry things open.

Additionally, I think looking for an underlying interpretation might just be a problem with our way of thinking and comprehending reality. The mathematical model might be really all that is and quantum mechanics could conceivably be just counter-intuitive and forming a satisfying mental picture of it might not be a problem with quantum mechanics but a problem with our perception. Just the way we might not be able to form a satisfying mental picture of 10-dimensional geometry which doesn't stop the math from working and being rigorous and clear.

I have sympathy for pilot wave theories as well.

Me too. I have sympathy for more than one interpretation to be honest and I find the question really interesting.

As far as your last point goes, it is indeed true that there are assumptions that have been made as nobody really has an answer for solipsism. So we do need to assume things and all our inquiry into reality is clearly an inquiry into the specific reality we seem to share. But we need to limit our assumptions as much as possible and assume as little as possible so as much as possible remains open for examination. There are many possible explanations for what the reality we seem to share is fundamentally and there have been a wide variety of hypotheses that have been put forward on that front. And since subscribing to any of those hypotheses requires additional assumptions, I don't see accepting any of them as reasonable. Additionally, it has to be clear that preference (if you meant it literally which I doubt) in the absence of evidence is basically wishful thinking. Why would we favor an interpretation when none has been properly substantiated? We should be honest about the questions that are open instead of selecting an answer too early.

Panpsychic hypotheses are a set of hypotheses that offer a lot of testable predictions that could potentially disprove competing explanations, so I think the reasonable thing is to withhold belief until they have stood up to scrutiny and have been left as the most likely explanation of the evidence available.

Paradoxes are like contradictions. They don't exist except in our minds, and are failures to understand something, as you say.

For Pinocchio, maybe the rules are not as we think them. Maybe his nose can grow when he says it will grow, and it can override the paradoxical rule we think are the only that apply ;) for example.

But ultimately, if we see a paradox, then what we see is false. Reality doesn't have contradictions or paradoxes. We just fail to express things accurately enough, or like to engage in word-play to sound "mystical" or clever lol.

we should accept the fact that we don't and can't know instead of inventing explanations

The patience of not inventing answers to questions we imagine, to fill in that gap in comprehension about the world, a void, abyss and hole in our worldview that makes us feel less secure, comfortable, but more anxious, stressed. We need an answer to fill in that question, so we invent ideas and accept them as real. Enter gods and creation myths. It's ok to be insecure in not having an answer, and accept the unknown. But the unknown has that fear and insecurity, discomfort, anxiety, stress at the psychological level. We are desperate to fill the darkness with any light, even an illusion :P

Thank you for clarifying conceive from possible. It adds more distinction and clarity :)

Lying indeed does require us to know someone knows that is true and intentionally puts out falsity. Many of us are chalk full of falsity and put it out because we believe in it, not because it's demonstrable or verifiable. Belief is powerful.

100% upvote and resteem buddy, good post to make us all think.

Thank you for both the upvote and the insightful comment! I really appreciate it and it's an honor :)

We just fail to express things accurately enough, or like to engage in word-play to sound "mystical" or clever lol.

lol, very well put! :)

Actually, we also have to be careful since we can not rule out that the universe not having something paradoxical in its nature. In a way, that fact that math works and the fact that we can define some laws of nature might also be viewed as a surprise. Some people might view the way quantum mechanics works as inherently paradoxical. Of course, my point here can only work only with one of the possible definitions and understanding of the concept of paradox. If we'd like to, we could say that whatever exists cannot be paradoxical by definition. This only comes to illustrate how many of our concepts break down in fringe cases and that forces us to come up with better definitions and developing deeper understanding.

Yup, better definitions and deeper understanding. Like the macro existence, and the micro quantum "non-existence". They are two completely different things, with different functionality. We don't exist at that low-order level, nor could we even if we wanted to exist with those "laws". That's why I call it non-existence, because it's not existence the way things operate there compared to where actual existence happens at the macro level. Existence is at the macro higher order level. Boundary conditions are met that shift the conditions of operation. Micro unreality stop applying, and macro reality dominates operations.

Quantum mechanics is indeed a great example of a real context where really a lot of our concepts and definitions break down. That's why so many words used in the quantum context have slightly or very different definitions from the way the same words are used in everyday life.

But I would actually object to the term non-existence being used here. On one hand non-existence already carries the connotation related to nothingness and on the other hand, I don't really think that the quantum world exists in a different way from the macro world in terms of the broadest definition of the term. The fact that it behaves so differently doesn't change the fact that it does have a behavior that we can test an interact with. In my opinion, the fact that there is uncertainty of some of the properties of a particle in no way negates it's existence.

So if you want to have a separate term for macro and micro existence, I would propose quantum-existence rather as it is less misleading and more descriptive.

Still, I absolutely understand why you are suggesting non-existence and your point does make sense. And of course, I would much rather discuss the underlying concepts than argue semantics. We can call the concept turd-existence if we felt like it and that would be OK as long as we agreed on the definition and we understood it in the same way so it would have utility for communication.

turd-existence

:P

Things can be broken apart and shit goes wild and we measure some of it. That; rendering things into a state of non-existence. COrrect me if I'm wrong, but those things that are measured, bozon, up down quarks etc, don't persist, right? Then need to be measured at some time.

Also, things pop in and out of existence, like an electron, I presume from the standing wave or however it actually works. It's not really existence once you really think about it. It's ripping things apart and nothing whole exists there like it does here. It's all fragmented in existence, popping in and out, part of fields that shift and move. It's madness lol. Like we have order here, and the quantum "reality", that's chaos by comparison. We wouldn't exist there is the point. But I get what you're saying as well. It "exists", but only by breaking up what really exists. Like a spark, then fades out and blinks into non-existence lol.

COrrect me if I'm wrong, but those things that are measured, bozon, up down quarks etc, don't persist, right? Then need to be measured at some time.

I'm not sure if that's exactly the case, but I'm also not sure that my understanding is deep enough to claim to be able to correct you. But let me share how I understand it anyway.

Even when an electron or a quark are a cloud of possibilities, they are not yet non-existent. In my opinion, everything that can be described by any physical quality even if it's just a probability, would still be something that exists. It might be mind-boggling type of existence that contradicts our marco-world-adapted intuitions, but it's still existence nonetheless.

When particles get annihilated or switch from one to another, only then do some of them stop existing. Saying that their state of being is not really existence requires too have a modification of the definition of existence.

As we mentioned before, for terms to be meaningful and useful, we need clear definitions. The working definition I put forward for exist as a term would be "having physical properties". Anything we can describe in a physical way and that is part of reality under this definition exists. What would your definition of the term be that would include the macro, but not the micro without having to resort to subjectivity (i.e. qualifiers like "makes sense" and so on). I think we are always better off excluding our intuitions from our definitions as much as we can.

The fact that the quantum world is chaos to us is not an intrinsic quality of the reality of it, it's a subjective judgment on how much it conforms to our intuitions and expectations. As far as a spark goes, it's a relatively brief phenomenon that has a beginning and and ending and it exists as a phenomenon bounded by those.

Sorry, the popping in and out was a bad metaphor that influenced me a while ago. I stand corrected.

About it not making sense, it's about how things work there compared to here. In trying to apply our existence to that micro level, it's not existence as we know, and we would not exist, because the larger order constructs can't operate under those "laws". Sure you can say things going from energy to particle states is it's own form of existence that operates that way, existing as energy or particle. But if we tried to live that way, it wouldn't work :P I know you get what I mean, but I want to stress how we, and other larger order greater complex constructs, can't exist at that level, which makes it "non-existence" to us. It's another form of existence that doesn't align or unite with ours, a lower order form of existence that high order forms couldn't exist within. Emergent properties and forces are not present to sustain the way things work up here, as they aren't developed and emergent at that level. Other processes are present instead.

Relating the other world to chaos, isn't simply subjective conformity. It's a comparative assessment of how one works (reality we can exist in) compared to another (quantum other world). By comparison, that world is chaotic. Chaos isn't an absolute pure application, neither is order. They apply as descriptors in relative comparison.

Thank you for yet another insightful reply and for taking the time to share your thoughts on the matter.

I absolutely understand what you mean and I would also concede that it might be a bit nitpicky on my part to keep arguing the opposite, but I do think such usage of the term offers lower utility and a less rigorous definition.

I absolutely agree that the macro and the micro are very different and exhibit very different properties, but I don't see a good reason to disqualify one of those from being called existing and I also don't see a rigorous definition that can draw a distinction between the two reliably. At what point exactly do we stop calling the micro micro and it enters into the macro? Keep in mind that experimental physicists have successfully repeated the double slit experiment not just with single particles but with molecules. The more we scale it up, the more difficult the boundary becomes to define. The boundary is indeed fuzzy and reliant on a subjective assessment, so by relying on it, we are making our definition of the term fuzzier than it needs to be which I view as undesirable.

Indeed, you have given me clear examples, but I'm still failing to come up with a proper rigorous definition of the term existence that would apply to the macro world only (unless you bake the limitation into the definition).

You can also look at it in another way. What are we made of? Particles. If existence applies to us, why wouldn't it apply to the building blocks that make us up.

While we don't see the results of quantum effects directly, they certainly shape us regardless as their properties give rise to a lot of phenomena in the macro world like electricity. Electrical conductivity and currents are directly dependent on the quantum world so seeing electricity is in my opinion an emergent property of the quantum world at our level and is indeed something that we are very used to.

Relating the other world to chaos, isn't simply subjective conformity. It's a comparative assessment of how one works (reality we can exist in) compared to another (quantum other world). By comparison, that world is chaotic. Chaos isn't an absolute pure application, neither is order. They apply as descriptors in relative comparison.

Sure, what I'm arguing is that we should keep such subjective comparisons out of our definitions whenever possible. My view is that this is a case when such a rigorous and thus more reliable definition is possible and since it is, it's reasonable to use it instead of more subjective options.

Having said all of that, I might see utility to your proposed usage and that's when you are introducing somebody to the quantum world for the first time. In this case, pointing out that existence in the quantum level is very different and in many ways counter-intuitive can actually help said person develop a better understanding of it and can help blow their mind to peak their curiosity to learn more. That's a more rhetorical approach and while it might be am effective introduction, I think it's better for that to be walked back at some stage to make way for a more nuanced and precise understanding.

Great insights , when we think a thought in our minds it might be whether false or true ,whatever then we give it energy to manifest , so if i think i could fly and believe thats gonna happen , but that's not gonna happen . our subconcious doesn't know the difference between whats real and whats imaginary . it believe what we tell it frequently , we set our limits , our thoughts wondering in our minds and have the power to destroy us or make us survive we have a role to choose and responsible for the consequences .

I agree. While our internal models of reality might be consistent or inconsistent when we analyze them, it's very important for us to actually test our assumptions/hypothesis about reality within reality, not just theoretically. Paradoxes and thought experiments can help is think off good places to look into, but they usually tell us much more about our understand of reality than about reality itself.

Exactly , nice to meet you

Nice to meet you too! :)

Try writing code:

PinocchioNose = notGrown

If PinocchioNose == notGrown PinocchioNose = Grown

If PinocchioNose == Grown PinocchioNose = notGrown

Well, I'm not exactly the best programmer, but perhaps someone can improve upon this, to make it more accurate. Either way, the paradox can be seen to come true: It'll inspire an infinite loop, crashing the entire computer if left to run.

Yep, I guess you just need to put this in a loop though. But yeah, this would be an infinite loop. That's why I'm saying that computing this accurately might actually be impossible for an objected of limited size to have the computing power to resolve such question reliably without some "manually written in" escape for such situations. In this case, it will come up with a result, but this result might not actually be "true" or the proper reaction to the statement, just some default option to protect it from infinite regressions.

We'd have to ask the blue fairy.

lol! Good one! :D

Hits blunt... Lol damn... My head hurts now.

Your post is really inspiring @rocking-dave. I am also interested to know more about paradoxes and their reality. I've written some words about the unexpected hanging paradox on my page and hope you'll like to read them @vinaypsychic.

I'm very glad to hear that! Thanks for stopping by and dropping me a comment. I'll check what you suggest out!

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