The high hidden cost of self upvotes

in #philosophy6 years ago (edited)

   The title of my post might look like I'm going for the clickbait, but I can guarantee you this is not the case my friend. There is ample evidence to show that I'm on to something here, and that this might be an aspect of Steem you may have not considered.


self voting.jpg

   It's a common mistake, at least It looks to be the case specially if you browse around the trending pages for a little while on Steem. I guess we can attempt to rationalize the behavior, participate in some sort of logical contortions, and arrive to half constructed justifications, as to avoid any feelings of guilt. But is this reasoning short sighted? I strongly believe it is, and I'll attempt to explain my point.

Penny Smart, pound foolish


penny wise.jpg

   Before someone attacks me for insinuating you should not do as you please with your stake, let me clarify. By all means, do whatever you feel like doing with your SteemPower, I have absolutely no right to tell you what you should, or should not do. I would even argue no one has the right to do so, that was the whole point of a decentralized social media platform, there is no big brother per say. But this does not mean you are not shooting yourself in the foot for thinking with a mind of scarcity.

   On the first image I shared, I've super imposed a pie chart of a user (no need for names) that has about 200 Steem Power sitting on the wallet. This user spends hours and hours a day making the most meaningless comments and self upvoting them, on whale accounts hoping to catch from random upvotes, but..... those never happen.

Let's do some napkin math...


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   Just because I want to make this as simple as possible, lets make some assumptions. Let's assume this account only upvotes 10 self comments per day, and that this account keeps on pulling the SBD out as they make it because they need it so badly.

   This user would be able to bring in 3.5 SBD per week at best, and this is assuming nothing goes wrong. Meaning, this user does not catch a couple flags for being spammy, or gets its account nuked for acting unethically by steemcleaners or alike. So to conclude that this tactic of "making money" is about effective as filling pools with a tiny plastic cup, is not an exaggeration. I would simply not take a job that paid me that little per week.

Who has time for that?

   Can you see yourself working every single day, on your little self upvote farm to make $5 a week? I can think of ten thousand things I would rather be doing, and one of them is nothing, but to these users, this is a "master plan", they figured it out, they rigged the system, they found the free lunch.

   I can almost guarantee a giant percentage of them give up, they simply have to, there is nothing in the human psyche that allows us to work without results indefinitely. It would make no sense, It would simply go against natural processes required for growth and survival. In other words, nobody has enough time as to throw it all away.

What did I mean by cost?



socialworth.jpg

   I don't want to bore you with platitudes and talking points you have probably read and heard before. The idea of social worth is nothing new, specially when we live in a virtual world of social-media where we allegedly require understanding it to navigate the waters. But do we really? Do we honestly get it?

Let's run a little Mental experiment


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A valuable Steemian

   Think of someone you look up to, it could be a whale, it could be a dolphin, it could even be a minnow that in your view, in your eyes, brings a lot of value to your Steemian experience. This person is loved by many, respected and almost never has posts or interactions that fall flat of expectations.

   Now imagine that person, losing access to their account, losing any possibility of regaining said access so the account, in other words, imagine that person having to start from scratch. How long do you think it would take this Whale, Dolphin or even Minnow to get back up there? Think hard, remove the default bias and really run this experiment in your head. Does it seem like an impossible task? or does it seem like it might not be too hard at all?

   Why is that? Why would it be expected for this Steemian you look up to, to recover his/her status? Could it be because you and many other people like you care? Could it be that not because this person lost the SteemPower it means that this person lost his/her Social Worth/Value?

A shitty Steemian

   Lets try the opposite, try to think of someone who is a terrible Steemian, it could be a whale, it could be a Dolphin, it does not matter. It's someone that you know is protected, at least in a way because of their Steem Wallet. What would happen, if this person lost access to his/her account? How many Steemians would offer their support? Would help this Shitty Steemian regain their position/status on the platform?

It's easy to get confused

   We equate sometimes the size of the wallet, with the social worth of a user, but that is an illusion, not only on Steem, but in the non virtual world too. And the question becomes, who do you want to be? Do you want to accumulate empty wealth, chase after a ghost in hopes that life's lotto will choose you? Or do you want to be someone who gets it? Someone that understands Social Worth, that does not ignore the first word "Social" from Social-Media.


giphy (20).gif

   It is easy to get confused, staring at those trending pages distorts the truth in more ways that I care to describe. But I for one intend to not allow that to ruin my days. I intend to not get caught up in the illusion that I need to think of my pennies, of conserving my VP because my 20 cents will become 19. Pennies are pennies, and I have a lot more to offer this platform that my stupid upvote.

Sorry for the tough love...

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Sort:  

YES! I am somebody who hates buttering up on others for personal gain. Our entire society works that way but I have always refused to emulate that. This platform would do so much better if all those bot votes were to be exclusively replaced with teams like Curie, each team having certain focus areas. Even more, I know many people talk like I do now but once they are at the top don't care any longer. When I should ever reach higher rankings here I'll do my best to practically embody Heart-driven service over money incentives..
Thank you for speaking Truth!

thank you for reading! all the best

What a fantastic article!

I must be honest and admit that I did investigate upvoting my own comments but I soon realised that it seemed like a silly thing to do.

I do upvote my own posts though. Have a fallen into the "but everyone else does it" trap with that too? Should one be upvoting one's own posts?

One thing I would like to mention though is that in some third world countries the income you talk of from self upvoting comments could be considered reasonable could it not?
In those cases it would be very difficult to convince someone to stop eating so they can concentrate on building their reputation in order to earn more in the future.

P.S. I have not upvoted this comment :-)


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Hey @atomcollector I've seen you making your rounds, you get it... you've been interacting amazingly with musicians, leaving supportive comments... I think you got it very early in the game actually.

I'm confident you are going to make a good splash on Steem, you got a good head on your shoulders... (I caught many open mic entries with your comments on them)

Regarding upvoting your own post... I've recently stopped even that.. it honestly makes no difference, and i rather give my VP to someone I support and care for... I don't ask for upvotes, I never have and probably never will... and its not like I make a killing, I don't but.. this.. whats happening right now this interaction, this tiny conversation... this is more valuable than me sending SBD's to any bot and buying my own best writer trophy.

Thanks for stopping by

Edit.- Third world countries.. i guess you make a point, but the math would also be very different, what the chances one of our brothers from Venezuela would buy 200SP to get their little upvote farm started... Not impossible, just not likely... on the other hand the open mic has some amazing artist making much more than that sharing their love for music... so i think this remains relevant... imho

Pennies are pennies, and I have a lot more to offer this platform that my stupid upvote.

You certainly do have a lot more to offer than your upvote. Things more valuable than an upvote by far. Like real interaction and your energy. Priceless stuff really.

thank you for reading Senpai! :)

Thank you for your kind comments. As far as I am concerned Steemit is no different than the real work - if you approach things from the "what can I get out of it" viewpoint then it's futile and unrewarding.

I played with a few vote bots early on as they look like they are part of the system when you first sign up and I like to try things to understand how they work. I don't use them anymore.

I will now consider not upvoting my own posts after reading this.

Thanks again for your support!

It's amazing the number of people who'd delegate two hundred SP to those brothers in Venezuela to develop a loyal following of people who will up vote them.

Bots are not going to go away since it's basically a business now offered by those with the influence to sell influence, like they say profits over integrity.

This also is not a decentralized platform, people need to get over that. In a decentralized platform power is distributed equally among all, no one holds more voting power over another, there would also be no need for witnesses. Steemit is a privately owned company. I suggest you look them up and read up on them then educate yourself on what a centralized and decentralized system in business really is.

Look at this... you made a lot more from one comment than your own self upvote!!!! its the magic of being a good Steemian... interacting the right way....

That's the math that is hard to see...

This is honestly a great example of your philosophy at work lol

Personally, I'm of the opinion that you should upvote what you genuinely think brings the most to the community. If you feel your post is one of the best things you've seen on Steemit all day, then give it an upvote. However, most comments are not really "worthy" of being a "top 20 thing you've seen today!" caliber upvote.

If I ever do a really really informative comment that I spend hours on, I may toss it an upvote , but for casual discussions like these, I think upvotes should be saved for good other peoples good posts or other peoples informative comments.

It's a shame you have to wait until you get to 500 SP before you get the slider. Since I had it I do a lot more upvoting as I can decide how much weight I want to give something. If someone has even spent the time to read and comment constructively on one of my posts or even a comment then I think it's worth a small upvote as a sign of my appreciation.

I think upvoting your own posts can be okay. You worked hard on it. I don't upvote my own very often because I'm interested in the value that others see in my work, but I think it's acceptable. At least, while your vote is smaller. If you have a $200 upvote or something, I personally feel it's wrong morally, but to each his own..

$200 upvote! :-) One day!

Thank you @kodaxx you are too kind!

Exactly, people in third world countries going hungry a penny is everything to them.

@Meno my friend!
This post has opened my eyes to what we all should be endeavouring to do on this amazing platform ... Socialise, Acclimatise, and maybe, just maybe, Defog our misted up money goggles! Sometimes we need a wise owl to guide us through (you have that wise head on those young shoulders of yours mate)
I've been shamelessly sucked in by the bid bots recently 😟.... basically, because I feared that, no one would click on my post, visit my blog and listen to my lovingly crafted music that I create.
Maybe I need to have more faith in what I'm doing, maybe we All need to have more faith and belief in ourselves, and not try to line the pockets of the bot makers, because, let's be brutally honest here, tapping a few codes into a laptop to create these things, doesn't really define talent, does it? Nor is it remotely comparable to writing a melody, intertwining chords and rhythms, writing lyrics from the depths of your soul, then capturing those beautiful moments to share with the world.
Phew.... That was deep man, but you get where I'm coming from?
Big love man!
@mrbloom aka Darren Claxton

Not only do I understand you @mrbloom I completely resonate with it.... the truth of the matter is that we should try to mine for currency, but that is only done in social valuation..

You are doing to do wonderfully mate... i have no doubt in only a few months you are going to look back at your first weeks on this platform and see all the miles you walked...

much love to you too...

We are mining right now! we are making friends, sharing experiences, music, thoughts and wisdom! I hope other Steemians are embracing this meeting of minds!
I must admit that I was getting rather deflated last week but, here's some advice for the new users here... keep pushing forward, believe in yourself and if you have a voice to share your passion and skills, that can be achieved by using, resilience, endeavour,ambition and the inspiration to succeed.
Have a great week mate.
I'll catch up with you soon.
Discord- @mrbloom

Spot on Darren!! I think we all fell into the trap of trying to get "a quick buck" or a lot of followers early on and Steemit really isn't any different than the real world; you know when someone is only dealing with you for their own gain. Insurance salesmen asking you how your family are is a prime example!!

Self voting gets us nowhere. All that work for such little return, even if you had 2000SP! Get out there and manually curate awesome authors who put in the time to bust their asses off writing. Great job on bringing this up so others can see.

thank you for stopping by... and of course, I could not agree more!!!

cheers mate

Run for president of the world, please. Where can I vote?

hahahah Carlita... you are too sweet...

Someone with a “lack mentality” will most likely not understand how to become wealthy in the first place. So instead of using leverage - social in the form of networking and making friends with influential people, financial - creating multiple streams of income, most of them ideally passive, and value-based - offering something that adds value to people’s lives, they chase miniscule active income.

Posts like yours are great because they educate. And that’s what can possibly change the lacker’s behavior.

Alas, in my short time on Steemit, I’ve seen lots of posts about the abuse of the reward pool or posts, that in my opinion, are not so amazing yet they have loads of upvotes!

So the best one can do IMO, is to make the best of what Steemit has to offer for yourself by sharing the best you got and educate on issues like the one you addressed.

Nothing is perfect, neither is Steemit, but what I like about it is that it evolves organically. And that means that it reflects the current overall level of consciousness of all the Steemians, the good, the bad, the mediocre.

Thank you for reading Petra... and of course you nailed it on the head...

Nothing is perfect, neither is Steemit, but what I like about it is that it evolves organically. And that means that it reflects the current overall level of consciousness of all the Steemians, the good, the bad, the mediocre.

  • Can you see yourself working every single day, on your little self upvote farm to make $5 a week?
    There are plenty of people around the world who work harder for less...
    Now if you live in one of the super powers,were wages are double that an hr. ,it seams minuscule. but for places were $1 day can feed a family ,how can you say it is not enriching there life?
    I have been on the platform since may of 17, I have a rep of 53 and just crossed the 600 hundred follower mark. and sitting at 259 SP. the value of said account vote has fluctuates from 3-15 cents depending on steem price and VP...
    My post make less than$1, $2,if I am lucky. I use dmania, decent memes because I found that memes make more than my post's.
    I am just an average user! never going to be a whale unless I buy SP.
    ...80% are never going to succeed...
    I find these attacks on self vote funny! mainly because there is a box that you can check,that gives it a validity,and official endorsement of platform developers! Most of the users that use it are minnows! and hurt the platform less than upvote bot's! ....I find it hard to believe that I can buy a vote from a whale at neg roi and it is ok,but I am encouraged to not use a built in feature! I am judged for self voting a post yet whales circle jerk,and @ned selfvote a comment to the tune of $2000+ ...
    That $168 a year is going to double every year,if crypto performs as past shows..that means next year it will be over 300.
    I am not trying to rape the reward pool!!!! I am using a built in feature/option!
    The plain simple fact that 80% of people on the platform will never make the big time,seams to escape most people... lets encourage more people to make less, yeah that helps the whales rape the reward pool more and give the average user less...
    I see a lot more little minnows trying to help than I do whales! I am not saying all whale are greedy,just that minnows do more! w/less...
    For an average minnow making 0.0-$2 a post not using the built in option to self vote seams foolish...
    I mean no disrespect Men0, I am just giving my 2 cent..to me not using it is like not using your ac on a hot day,and refusing to roll down/open a window...
    I am not being greedy,or trying to rape the reward pool,I am using a built in feature!
    HOW IS THAT WRONG!!!!?
    NAMASTE!

Its not really wrong per say jesse... I don't really see an issue with you upvoting your posts, this article was more directed to upvoting your own comments, being hypocritical, leaving spammy generic stuff on other people's post.

you know... the now classic.... "Wow... thanks for share" or variation of.. not so much your own posts.

Regarding third world countries, you are right for some of them $1 a day could be a big difference, but also they are not likely to have your account size Jesse... how many of them could afford to buy 269 Steem and power up to self vote to that 1 dollar per day?

And to be clear, you are not raping any reward pool, you are someone that I happen to appreciate and everyone else on MSP thinks highly of you too..

And i felt no disrespect in your tone brother.. none what so ever..

Thank you! for clarity.
I do agree on the not upvoting comments part as a general rule of thumb,but I have and will continue to do so in cases were I feel that my input has value and to help it be seen by author.
How many of them could afford to buy 269 Steem, I could not afford that!!!...lol...

I have bought aprox 25 sp w/ bitcoins from faucets.. and that was at 1.25,and 0.88 about half and half...lol average of $1 per SP...
;-)
Thank you for not being offended! you are good people ! I appreciate all you do!

This is exactly what debates are for - to see different views. Sometimes we can be blinkered by our own biases.

Again another validation of Steemit - people like you guys can have a fairly heated discussion but you both respect each other's opinion.

Love it! :-)

Thanks you saved me the time of spelling it out, I was just browsing to see if someone else was going to hit on it before I would. I stopped upvoting my own comments despite someone who keeps encouraging me to do it. I find myself conflicted on the issue. When you spend hours writing something and it gets completely ignored it's not hard for people to figure out an alternative way to make a few cents for their effort. The person encouraging said it's not the small timers that people get mad at it's those at the top taking advantage and it's pretty hard to tell someone not to do something when the one's at the top aren't setting a good example. Excellent rebuttal, thanks.

Hi Meno, You were one of the first I interacted with on Steemit when I had just joined in October last year (you were offering a guitar as prize for a music contest). Your enthusiasm participated in getting me invested into the platform (thx for that, a random interaction has had a great effect on a random stranger :-) ).

After 4-5 months, I kind of try to take some perspective on this online adventure. In my eyes, Steemit is a huge sociological experiment: putting money in the game shows the human heart. There is so much kindness and talent, and also so much uglyness and basic instincts... yin and yang, that's what it is.
Does Money corrupt the human heart and dignity? It does, but at what level? imho, Steemit is a quite a good indicactor of the answer.

As for the upvote issue, I've built up some SP over my time on Steemit, and I will admit that I do upvote myself on some comments, but allways at the ratio of what I believe I am bringing to the discussion. sometimes 0%, sometimes full, depending on what I sense I brought in quality or ideas (it's subjectively of course, it cannot be otherwise).
There is a fundamental rule I make a point to follow though: I do not treat myself better than others. When the words of another Steemian speak to me, lightens a new interesting view (even if disagree), clarifies something etc... , I will vote him or her the same way I would do with myself.

Be well

I think that is a balance way to approach it Muphy, without a doubt... I and of course as you obviously have seen with your own to eyes, your growth has had a direct correlation to the quality of your social interactions and not so much on focusing on voting power and SP as the dominant aspect of the day.

You are one of the good ones Muph.. I've seen you make your rounds on the whale dramas, trying to bring some balance to the table... you are one of the good guys!

:)

With all due respect I disagree. As long as there are whales that have the right to use BOTs to target others for no good reason other than their own bad day, while using those same BOTs to up vote themselves; I am going to upvote that video I spent an entire day to create. When the Trending Trash page is cleaned up I will change my attitude, if not, my self votes will stay around 5%. Greetings!

As much as I understand you, and as much as you make a valid point, you are also speaking from an anecdotal stance. Meaning... I know you specifically have been targeted by a whale, and in my opinion, not that it makes a difference, unfairly so... but most minnows try to steer clear from poking the bear as they say, so i guess in that sense, for your specific case, you are probably right.

But.... just to play devil's advocate for a second if your own SP is low, how much more effective could you be at rewarding the videos you have been working on, if you had more social worth? if you were making more allies on Steem, participating in discord/steem communities... Maybe you would fair better? I dunno...

But again, I don't think we disagree in your case all that much.

In a decentralized system one wouldn't have to be afraid of poking the bear. Most time's I have no idea whom I am talking to, I just click on the link, and be honest in my replies whether good or bad regarding the topic, if some bear doesn't like it so be it I survived this life way before they ever came along, you have to be able to be you otherwise the joy is ripped out from underneath you. Maybe I've been a blogger way to long but everyone's opinion counts, this is just one day not forever, tomorrow you may find yourself seeking agreement upon another ground.

There are so many things to unpack, but because I don't want our conversation to be extremely long, or one sided, let me lay down a few questions, lets see if we can find some common ground.

Have you seen venezuelan accounts with very little SteemPower, making a big splash, maybe even trending once or twice?

I have, actually quite a few, they brought value to the platform and themselves, interacted amazingly. Their Steem was irrelevant, really.

Have you seen a crypto currency that does not have whales, in other words where a small number of accounts hold the majority of the stake?

We can make a case for equality of opportunity, it seems ethical and moral, but the opposite can be said about equality of outcome... Do you disagree?

(thanks for stopping by and making some good points)

Have you seen venezuelan accounts with very little SteemPower, making a big splash, maybe even trending once or twice?

Yes I have, I see that from quite a few individuals in third world countries. Their value to the platform was much more then quality of content, it only bares truth when you see so much more quality content go unnoticed that the extra added value comes from the number of followers they will entice to the platform by merely making pennies, pennies that are a life line to them, that will be a lifeline to others who will be encouraged to join for the same reason. They get promoted/backing from the powers that be not that they are any better quality then hundreds of other post. I see it all the time. I also see them being "fostered" by the powers that be also whereas I don't see that a whole lot among others unless they form into groups. The difference is the amount of people in desperate situations spread the word of a avenue that can help them even if that help is minuscule just by following (or in a lot of situations, kissing ass) with someone who has money, the person with the money isn't driven by a true desire to actually help these people as much as it improves their bottom line. It's not a bad thing, it happens all the time. Do you ever see corporations who move their operations to third world countries helping them build viable communities to one day flourish?...or pay them enough so that goals is attainable?....No, you don't because then they wouldn't need the corporations fifty cents a day wage. Don't mind me for finding it rather ironic that somebody floating around on a yacht sipping martini's is patting himself on the back for all the good he's brought to people when all's he has really managed to do is give them enough for a bag of flour to keep from starving. The amount of Steem I have is irrelevant too, I am all about free, I can wait, just like the starving for the power to reboot.

Have you seen a crypto currency that does not have whales, in other words where a small number of accounts hold the majority of the stake?

Did you see me say there was something wrong with that aspect? No. I only stated this was not a decentralized platform.

A lot of people get that mixed up in their head and think this is somehow the magical dream of deregulation that they've always dreamed of. When in fact it's still fat cats at the top, middlemen making money in the middle running it, and the depositors at the bottom. Fats cats still wield the majority of the power, censorship is still alive and well, witnesses still fighting for the have nots. (lol) Some people so desperately want to believe they can change the system they become indifferent to that which is no different.

We can make a case for equality of opportunity, it seems ethical and moral, but the opposite can be said about equality of outcome... Do you disagree?

Have another martini.

This is a great article that's right on the mark. Not only does it perfectly explain why one should be focused on making their comments meaningful, It also uses napkin math, the best kind of math. :)

you know it brother!

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