That was a waste of time... Was it really?
I was answering replies and I realized what I was about to reply about would be much better as a post as I personally think it might be a valuable observation to some people.
Have you ever had a discussion with someone you disagree with and they stubbornly refused to listen to any of your ideas? The answer is likely yes. We also must be careful that it is not ourselves that is actually the stubborn one. That can be tricky.
Have you ever encountered that person later on to overhear them having a debate where they were the proponent for the idea they would not agree with you on before? In otherwords, what you had tried to convince them of and had seemed to fail is what that person was now trying to convince someone else.
I've actually had this happen a lot of times. I don't see it as a negative. It is a good thing.
I started thinking about why this happens.
We as humans generally do not like to be wrong. Some of us absolutely hate it. It takes some serious mental reconditioning to truly convince yourself that it is not always bad to be wrong. We can mostly get there, but to some degree there will always remain a part of us that dislikes being wrong.
Depending upon how much we have or have not convinced ourselves that not only is it okay to be wrong, but we actually are likely wrong far more often than we liked to admit, we can easily find ourselves entering into defensive mode.
"Shields up, alien feeling idea approaching, prepare phasers"
Instinctually our mind will rally to try to fight off this invading force. We have this logical orderly view of how we believe the world works, and how and why things happen. Now something is coming along and challenging that.
Our defensive mechanism kicks in before we've even had time to consider "Could they be right."
Yet some of these ideas are like a virus invading our computers. (good or bad) An idea that we refused to listen to, may at some point actually begin to make sense.
I often refer to this as planting seeds.
I don't mind talking to people no matter how stubborn they get as long as they don't resort to ad hominem attacks. At that point it is hard to get many places as that is like opening fire with the phasers rather than putting them on alert.
A discussion where no one seemed to win can in fact be like each side tossing seeds of ideas at each other. It is very possible that those seeds may find fertile mental soil at a later date. So having these discussions where it appears it may have been a waste of time, may actually be simply taking a snapshot at the wrong moment in time.
Changing your thinking and world view can rarely be an instantaneous thing without some traumatic event. Thus, it is more likely any ideas you are trying to share with someone may not fully make sense to them until long after the discussion is already over.
So even if it is frustrating and you feel like you accomplished nothing. Don't feel that way. It is possible a seed has found fertile soil and it just takes time for it to sprout and grow into something.
It could grow into something wonderful that may lead to that person coming back to you and teaching you new things.
Happens all the time... Usually with myself!
Excellent observation @dwinblood. I am very open minded about being wrong about things in my own thinking but have to admit that I have probably been guilty of this in the past. Th e battle with the self is the most difficult by far and it is very hard in the moment to admit that you are wrong.
Thank you for bringing this into focus for me. :)
Hope you are having an excellent day!
We ALL are guilty of this more often than we realize. Me too!
If you were to initially disagree on something and I could convince you in two sentences, I guess I would be disappointed. But if a wise man like you disagrees with the points I make, I also get frustrated "How can he not see those simple points I make?", "How can he of all people not see the greatness of my idea!?". In the moment it can feel like a lose-lose situation, but I still think that civil disputes are maybe the most important aspect of discussion/politics/philosophy.
Btw you talking about @everittdmickey, right? I love the guy for his attitude of shooting from the hips. We germans would call him "kernig".
He can be tough to argue with, but I like him for having a completely different perspective than I do. I unfollowed him when he spam posted to get rid of the bots following him........ -.-
Convincing someone like you of something, that he firmly disagreed on in the past, will be a great achievement! Need to make that BUI article a really good one ;).
That's what I am saying. Don't. The things we talk about are big things. They can take time to move about in our minds. It may be days, weeks, etc before there is an aha moment, and we may not even recall what inspired the argument. Yet, it may have planted a seed that is only now growing into something. It may not be what you hoped it would be, but it might alter the person's world view.
Big topics don't change in the minds of people quickly.
And yes I was speaking about @everittdmickey. I still follow him. Yet he kept talking about things that were not in my post as though I said them. No matter how many times I told him, "Yeah, but that isn't what the post is about" he just kept trudging on. I got to the point where I wondered if he even read the article, and most of the stuff I said to him. Then he was silent.
He is fond of muting people he disagrees with. I know he is no longer following me, but I do not know if he muted me or not.
To each their own.
EDIT: No Everitt is not who inspired this post. That was a different post a day or two ago. The post today wasn't inspired by anyone I was disagreeing with. They just said some things that for some reason made me think of and be inspired to write this post.
I can't :D. Its just an honest emotion that I am trying to acknowledge and cope with. I can make unfair/unhealthy comments and points, that wont fall under the category of ad hominem. Still they wont nurture the conversation, they would only contribute to make me look like a "winner of the conversation", even though it was only some witty rhetoric and not a real argument i presented.
No challenge is fun if you don't get frustrated along the way.
https://steem.makerwannabe.com/index.php?username=dwinblood&period=4
yeah, he muted you, feelsbad
Oh well. It doesn't really hurt me. If he keeps muting people just because he disagrees with them he's not going to have some of the more interesting people interacting with him.
yeah, I like the guy, but I disagree with a lot of what he says and does.
I stopped following him. Not much point in following him if I am muted. Interaction is important to me.
I wasn't the only person. I saw him mute another cool person today, because they are not a fan of memorial day. He didn't do anything but, respond to their post with "I mute you." :)
Mhh, I just read your conversation under the prison article. And I have to say I am not really fund of the way you behaved. It is strange for me to try to scold you, but I will try my best :D
@everittdmickey standpoint was quite simple: Slavery in prison is constitutional, further slavery is an appropriate way to punish criminals. Thus there is no actual problem.
You harped a lot on semantics ("by definition") and even said "got reading problems". Even if you add "we all have those days" it is pretty much straight up insulting.
Your later comment, that started with "Also no where in any of my blog posts on this subject have I indicated we should NOT have prisons." was pretty spot on in explaining that you are actually not disagreeing, because you don't argue against prison or slavery as punishment in your post.
Now, I cant say I would have acted differently and hindsight always knows best. I just wanted to point out the mistakes I saw you make in that confrontation, in my opinion.
If we are at it I might as well bring one of my personal criticism that I have towards your articles: They are lacking solutions. I agree on almost all problems you describe, but you tend to only point vaguely towards alternatives or ways to fix the problem.
Sorry for all that negativity. With our topics being circlejerk and discussion culture I thought it was a good time to point out some criticism I have. I am sure you won't take it the wrong way. You are still my favorite person on Steemit to read articles from and have discussions with ;)
Yeah that technically was an ad hominem attack. I'm not too proud of that.
The point was my title even said Slavery is legal. Whether it is constitutional or not didn't really have anything to do with my article.
He started that when he said Slavery by definition is Prison. It is not. I think he might have meant to say Indentured Servitude instead of prison.
There have been plenty of cases of prison that had nothing to do with labor.
So yeah he began with the by definition stuff.
You have to observe the problem before you can seek solutions. One solution I would think would be to go back to only giving inmates the jobs that people outside of the prison would not want to do. It would stop it from becoming almost a vocational school and cheaper alternative than college in the U.S. (This is true believe it or not, and pretty sad). Our public sector is actually losing a lot of work to inmates. They just don't know it.
I am also fairly certain that the spreading out into all of these other fields of work is partially what is fueling the fact that we have the largest prison population on the planet. It is extremely profitable.
I like to think I don't have a problem with criticism, and even welcome it as long as it is civil.
I can see that in your answer.
On your debate with Mickey, I would have taken your side. His argument was pretty much forced labor in prison is allowed by law, so its OK. I mean why would he even feel the need to debate, if the law is always correct...
I can also completely understand your frustration, I also tend to get condescending if I want to avoid ad hominem, but still want to express my anger. Most of the time I am not proud of that as well.
I appreciate the problems you talk about. There are many, like the outsourcing to prison, that I am not aware of.
In my young adulthood I started to became less interested in politics. Mainly because I was able to criticize a lot but never came up with a good solutions/alternatives. I think Crimea made me return to politics or more specifically Putin and all the lies told about him.
Ignoring the search for solutions was the reason I stopped being political for some time and I dont want that to happen again.
Well, my solution to the problem of labor in prison would be to get rid of prison and replace it with better equipped asylums and other punishment. I posted it in detail in yesterday if you want to check it out ;).
I actually think most people especially in the U.S. are not even aware this is happening. That is why I talk about it.
I'm not going to go Google it, but there was an Admiral that said something like...
"If you don't do politics, politics will do you"
To me that translates to if we don't pay attention to politics then someone will make decisions about OUR lives for us, without our input.
This is so true.
Great post!
For this reason i analyze every conversation i have with everyone.
I started doing this in my teenage years, and that changed into a habit of mine.
Even when if i know someone for years, then still i might not know how his feelings are in that situation.
Life is full of situations, what could influence our feelings and thoughts.
To think that we know people is wishful thinking.
For that reason i always filter every conversation on intelligence, knowledge, experience, and search for if someone is telling the truth or not.
I explain it like this, but it will go very fast in my mind.
And when i see on what level of intelligence, knowledge or feelings that person is, then i just go along on that level.
Iv learned that it's useless to explain, to a blind man how the statue of liberty looks like. Then i might as well talk to a wall.
Same logic counts for people, who don't even know what a solid argument is, or don't know how to find the truth in anything, to use that in a argument.
Mostly those people believe or assume something, and use that in a argument.
And if that wound work, they get mad and either walk away, or fight back.
Most are ignorant about our fight and flee system in our brain, and get easily influenced by it. And the only way to use that system in a positive way, is to be aware of it. But explain this to someone, who had learned to believe in some concept or religion. They will either see you as the devil or as a idiot or will even fight you for it , because they feel attacked.
That's nothing more than a reaction of there flight and flee system in there brains.THats the reason i am here on Steemit, to find people which i can talk on level with. And my English is not good, and i am not mister know everything.
But i do know how to communicate and i am open to learn from others.
If more would think like that, then that leads to complete other conversations, and then it would even be possible to talk in a mature way about subjects, what normally many people feel attacked about.
I think Steemit got the platform to openly talk about anything, one bad noob action who is a hot head, would lead to a downvote, bad reputation or they will un follow him. lol
Time will change!
Cheers.
Nice reply I appreciate you taking the time to do it. Your English was actually not too bad. It is better than some people for whom it is their native language. Ultimately I don't care how you spell things or say things as long as I can eventually determine what you are trying to say.
This is also why I am on steemit. It appears you and I started around the same time.
Thank you, and that's correct, but i was not active back then.
On those days of big glory of steemit, was i not busy with Steemit lol
I had no time to sit down and write.
Only the last couple of months i am active, and i think i will stay active.
I started to like this place, i see that i meet more "same mind" thinkers like me.
“The biggest communication problem is we do not listen to understand.
We listen to reply.” - Stephen R. Covey ... Cliche but on point. but yes. this is something i have a conundrum with all the time. Glad someone else sees it similarly!
I think it is failure in our own thinking to believe that one encounter or statement can change a worldview. A worldview is just that: a view of how things work for us / how we function and exist.
To believe that something you said/posted/discussed could change someone's view that has years of foundation is a problem with our own logic.
Yep, it can actually change a view. Yet if it does it likely will be long after that discussion has ended. When it comes to our world view it truly does change pretty slow unless something traumatic occurs that makes us change instantly. Traumatic changes are usually pretty specific and tend to only change SOME things.
My main thing I wanted to get across is that discussions can have a lot of importance beyond what you may have experienced in that discussion.
So people shouldn't feel bad if they didn't manage to change someone's mind.
I battle with this every day and work towards improving this. For so long I hated to admit that I was ever wrong even when I clearly was. I have realized that sometimes it is better to let the other person feel as if they are right even if they are not as the argument is not worth the battle!
Your idea of planting seeds is a good one with people!!
Great post!
It is hard sometimes to make people see it your way so I just take a deep breath and think do I always see it there way and the answer is always "No I don't see it their way all the time"! So I guess we just have to accept people for being people and everyone is different.
Yet, don't quit trying to have good discussions. Stop when it is clear either of you are at a point you want to stop. Yet keep trying in the future.
I agree totally.
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