The greater good...?steemCreated with Sketch.

in #philosophy7 years ago

Today I wanna talk about how...
I'm a bit overwhelmed with all this..
Justifying of immorality for various reasons, but specifically right now in a sort of "greater good" sense.

And I wanna try to keep it respectful and civil, so I will make the effort and if anyone comments I hope you do as well.
I admit that perhaps I'm a lil biased here because my mom believes these sort of things and I love her and wouldn't want people insulting her for her religious beliefs so likewise I don't necessarily want other people insulted either.
Just because I love her doesn't mean I can't disagree majorly but be respectful.
I've felt similar about other subjects.. Like.. Amanda was a Christian so despite my major disagreements.. I don't like it when people bash Christianity for no reason.
And in other ways with other people as well you know, who I care about, I realize they believe some pretty imoral things and I just don't want to devolve too much into insulting that kind of behavior.

Both because of love and respect for people I care about and because lately I'm realizing that you get your message across better when peoples shields aren't as up from feeling attacked or insulted or whatever.
So with that all out of the way.. Let's begin.

This train of thought right now starts through the last couple days, it goes back further.. Sure.. But a couple days ago is a good place to start.
Was watching a debate between vegans and RAW meat eaters, and.. By the time I finished watching it and was thinking about it..
I realized that most if not all of the people who Vegan Gains has debated have basically admitted to some really disturbing things in order to attempt to be logically consistent.

A few were better than others and claimed stuff like.. Animals just don't deserve rights because they can't communicate with us.
Stuff like that.. But.. Some of the others.. In order to remain logically consistent have basically said.. Rape and murder of humans is good.

I'm all for anarchy, but that doesn't mean I lack morality.
No laws = Good with me, but murdering or raping others for no justifiable reason = not good.
And a justifiable reason to murder other living organisms, even people in my opinion is survival..
I'm not sure there is a justifiable way to rape.. The only possible way I can think of might be like if there were only two people left on earth and you didn't want the whole species to go extinct.
Yet.. That prolly wouldn't work too well if she wasn't willing cause she could just kill herself or the baby.. Like.. I don't even see how it would work in the most extreme possible case.

I would kill an animal to survive if I was stuck out in nature or something.
However.. I'm not sure I could say the same about killing a person. I might rather starve to death than kill a person.
But since I can eat plants and not have to kill any sentient beings, why would I?
If plants were by some chance sentient, they're still less sentient and you eat something like 18 times less plants if you eat just plants instead of fattening up animals with them first.
So.. If plants were sentient and to be moral in that case if they were, shouldn't one live sort of minimalist in the sense that they should only eat as much plants as necessary to be healthy?

The fact we can even debate what we eat says a lot.
I can't prove it, but I doubt any wolves or lions or any other creature on the planet except us ever question what they eat and get together and discuss it.
This uniqueness to CHOOSE such kinds of things, I think is pretty implicative of higher functioning order. (OR in a weird sense maybe less, lol.. Maybe we have amnesia and don't know while all the other creatures do, lol)
And.. We also have morality much more than the animal kingdom as well.

A lot of people think morality is subjective and that's sorta where this thread is going..
I wouldn't say morality doesn't exist at all for animals, cause you see animals caring about each other and helping each other.
And likewise, you also see them do some horrible things to each other just like humans do, and I'm not talking about eating to survive..
I'm talking about rape and stomping babies or weak ones to death and things like that and the murder of their own species for non survival reasons.

However.. Still seems like if we are evolving, or if there are higher orders.. That humans are, and we can MUCH more think about and choose in regards to these kinds of things.
Assuming we have any free will at all. Heh. That's another subject though.

Okay so.. I just wanna clarify that.. I doubt my mother has ever said rape is good, BUT.. She as well as a LOT of other people have really taken to this subjective morality stuff...
Where there is no good or bad, just our perception of it. And she also sort of thinks that all of the war and rape and horrible things in the world are sort of.. Necessary or part of the process of our evolution to something better.
This has caused conflict to an extent with me before, because.. That's hard for me to agree with.
I can get her point to an extent.. That.. If you stop looking with human eyes and look through like.. God's eyes or whatever.. Assuming God even exists..
Then, it's all sort of part of the process or whatever.. I dunno.

In my mind I think.. If God is so powerful, why would it have us go through such horrible things?
That doesn't make a lot of sense to me and I can see a much better world without war and rape and I'm not even an all powerful God.
I feel like me a regular human could have designed things to be a bit better than this insanity.
Like.. If God is choosing all this rape and war and babies being bombed.. That's a really twisted god in my opinion.. I don't like that idea.. Maybe it's true, but I don't like it much.

Really quick I just wanna say I believe in both subjective and universal morality.
I don't think it's just one or the other but a combination of both.. So to me, each human has their own subjective interpretation, but there's also a universal one as well.
And in my opinion it's our job to line up to that universal morality as best we can according mostly to just the simple Golden Rule, or we might as well be back living in the jungle with no civilization or society and just raping and killing whatever we want.
To me, civilization and society sort of imply a morality, for we have to get along and the better we get along the better society works and the more we evolve and advance into creating space ships to explore the cosmos and internets and things like that.

So this brings me to a person I was arguing with the other night who had a similar kind of idea..
And those Raw meat eaters, they basically have a similar view of like.. "It's all natural, all the killing and rape and everything is just natural"
And it seems like.. They are able to differentiate between good and bad for their personal ego or selves, yet they sort of detach to this "God" consciousness and claim on another level that nothing is good or bad.
It's kinda weird.. On one hand they admit they don't wanna be murdered or raped or have bad thigns happen to them, but then they say in the same breath that ultimately there is no good or bad.. It's weird.

This guy I debated said.. "Everything is part of a greater good, even bombing"..

I pressed him on what he said and asked if also rape and torture were for the greater good and he said yeah, basically everything is for the greater good.
Wow.. Just wow.. This is the same mindset the people in power use.. They're like.. Well.. If we kill these people over here, then we can save these people.
And they basically play god with innocent peoples lives in the name of the "greater good".
This is a scary concept.. If you can murder millions of people or torture or rape and basically do whatever evil horrible thing in the name of the greater good.. What is going on there? How does that work?

How can you do the most evil things known to man in the name of the greater good?
Seriously.. Ahem.
Trying to stay respectful.. And I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this subject, but.. Please try to keep it respectful. Thank you.

PS This reminds me of the story of Cypher in the Matrix, the one who betrayed them cause he wanted to go back into the Matrix..
To me when I see people saying all the bad stuff is necessary, it's a sign of them sticking their head in the sand and ignoring it.
To me that's a much more accepting defeatist way of looking at it, it's like.. "I can't do anything about it, so it's just part of the greater plan"

But.. I think that kind of mindset kind of leads to such problems, if almost everyone were to stand up and say "NO, NOT ANYMORE" then it would change massively.
Though when they sort of just accept it and don't try to physically resist and change it in any way.. I think when we collectively do that in large numbers it's bad.
We need to more collectively resist and push back in large numbers, than to just passively accept such things.
I think if more and more people started saying NO, instead of saying.. "Okay, that's just how it is" things would be a lot better.

Sort:  

No creature would understand the works of the CREATOR fully and truly.

God even created Lucifer who became Satan because of jealousy.
In an instant God can change the world into heaven with a blink of an eye if God wills it. Why God don't do it?
Why Satan is still in this world? Why death is still happening in many ways, diseases, famine, war, etc. God can eliminate all these stuffs, can put back Satan into hell if God wants it. Then why this don't happen? The answer is: I don't know. Do you know? Let me guess. I guess God loves to play games, God don't want to end the game right away.
Comment your guess.

No creature would understand the works of the CREATOR fully and truly.

Totally agree with you here!!

Why God don't do it?
Why Satan is still in this world? Why death is still happening in many ways, diseases, famine, war, etc. God can eliminate all these stuffs, can put back Satan into hell if God wants it. Then why this don't happen? The answer is: I don't know. Do you know? Let me guess. I guess God loves to play games, God don't want to end the game right away.

I don't necessarily believe in Satan and God and all that like you do, but.. I think you asked some really good questions and I agree with your line of questioning.. Why?? Doesn't make a lot of sense to us humans and maybe we're not suppose to understand, maybe if we did it would ruin the purpose,maybe it sort of is like a game like you mentioned and if we knew it was a game, it wouldn't mean so much.. Maybe part of the game is we aren't suppose to know. I dunno! Interesting to think about though. Thanks for your thoughts!

what if Gd is putting us here for lessons.. the bible kinda starts of that way of us getting kicked out of eden. It doesn't mean we are fated to suffer.. but I think being here on earth is sometimes a punishment lol.

That is a possibility. I don't pretend to know the answer. I just think some things make more sense than others, though that doesn't mean they are right, who knows what's right in regards to some of this kind of stuff.. I think it will probably always remain theory and be unable for us to fully know.

And yeah, sometimes and for a lot of people life ends up seeming a lot more like punishment and torture and suffering than it does like a good thing unfortunately, and that's for those who even live long enough to be able to think about such.. Many are children or babies are killed or die from diseases or whatever before they even really get a chance to think about some of this kind of stuff.. It doesn't seem like the best place! It seems really.. Hostile and difficult and painful for most people.

I do believe in God and that Jesus walked the earth, but I don't necessarily agree with religions or the churches. I read the bible and take what I can from it. There are a lot of things in the bible the churches don't touch on that I think should be taught, but they only focus on the good happy stuff. I don't know the answer nor will I pretend too, honestly no one knows why we are here. But I see too much design for there not to be a creator in my opinion. But one thing that someone ( real church going guy) told me kind of always stuck with me. Even if it turns out there is no God, if you follow the bibles teachings on how to treat one another it will make life a lot better for everyone.
I don't like to debate this subject much because everyone has their own beliefs and I respect that. Just because someone doesn't believe in God doesn't make them a bad person and just because someone believes in God doesn't make them a good person. Treat others how you would want to be treated.

I agree with you that "for the greater good" is nothing but a justification. What they mean is "greater than you, screw you." This ironically the kind of thing said by those who "believe in a universal morality", that's just another justification to ignore someone else.

I prefer reason over any kind of so-called morality. Rather than justifying why I wouldn't kill babies and drink their blood, by the use of reason I know I'm simply not interested in doing such a thing. That's the problem with mindset of moral people: they begin with the assumption that people are bad and something must stop them from doing nefarious deeds.

I think you're extremely projecting. Moral people don't start with the assumption that people are bad and something must stop them, they just care about others. Morality = Caring about others. It's pretty simple.

And I think the most reasonable thing is to be moral or you might as well go live in the jungle and rape and murder like a wild animal.

And I think the most reasonable thing is to be moral or you might as well go live in the jungle and rape and murder like a wild animal.

How does this not prove my point? lol

That doesn't mean people start with the assumption people are bad and we must stop them?
It's just an additional point. Doesn't mean it's the starting point and definitely not the starting point for all vegans..

I feel like.. You're sort of twisting my words and cherry picking them out of context.
I don't really have time anymore tonight to argue much so.. I'll respond to a couple more of your responses then I gotta go.

That doesn't mean people start with the assumption people are bad and we must stop them?

You do.

There is no good or bad in your world I'm assuming? Let's all just rape and murder each other!

Either that or you're stuck in a false dichotomy. In other words, you think only two options exist when this is a distortion of the possibilities. It's entirely possible that you really are stuck parroting various ways of saying "My way or the highway!"

It's just an additional point. Doesn't mean it's the starting point and definitely not the starting point for all vegans..

Not ALL vegans, of course. ALL the vegans I've met. Even the ones I like.

I feel like.. You're sort of twisting my words and cherry picking them out of context.

It can seem like that but if you can point out where I'm being unfair, that's cool. If I twist your words, please UNTWIST them. I like to be accurate. :)

I don't really have time anymore tonight to argue much so.. I'll respond to a couple more of your responses then I gotta go

Cool, peace. :)

You do.

Not necessarily.. I'm more of an anarchist. I believe in self defense. I don't really believe in law. I'm more of an attitude that we teach people better ways than to try to force anything.. I'm not trying to force anything. I'm trying to discuss and reason.

Either that or you're stuck in a false dichotomy. In other words, you think only two options exist when this is a distortion of the possibilities.

No I'm showing you an extreme to get the point across.

Not ALL vegans, of course. ALL the vegans I've met. Even the ones I like.

K there's a lot of different vegans for a LOT of different reasons. That's not sufficient for me.

It can seem like that but if you can point out where I'm being unfair, that's cool. If I twist your words, please UNTWIST them. I like to be accurate. :)

I have already quite a few times and I continue to.

Cool, peace. :)

Synchronistically we ended up right here as I need to really get to sleep. So.. Peace man. If you have any further responses I will respond to them the next chance I get.

No I'm showing you an extreme to get the point across.

Oh, holy shit motherfucker. We have a breakthrough. This could have saved us a lot of time. :)

Well, it's not working. You're just coming across (to me) like an asshole. I know you're at least not entirely an asshole. :)

So what's your point, without having to resort to explaining in the extreme?

thanks for share such a lovely post

Wow I don't know what to say to all that. People really have a distorted view of the things of this world. At 54 years of age I have come to realize in my life that the God of the Bible is real and Jesus is his son and the Holy Spirit resides in us. I also know that Satan is real and was cast to the earth and he is considered the god of this world. (That is until Jesus returns) People tend to blame God in Heaven for things that Satan does here on earth. Satan even tried to tempt Jesus in the wilderness but to no avail. I wish I had all the answers why people do the things they do or why they think the way they think. I can only have faith in God and believe the promises that Jesus Christ spoke of in the Bible are coming to pass. I have to look past the evil of the world and not let the world influence over what the Holy Spirit is speaking to my heart. It all comes down to this, everyone believes in something. Everyone seems to think their way of thinking is correct. We argue and debate with each other to try to prove our points. WHY? So we can say HA! I was right. What if we just let go and realized that Jesus is right. He is the way, the truth and the life. No one gets to the Father but through him. We won't get to heaven molding our ways to the world but if the world would mold themselves to be like Jesus then the world could be saved. We are to far gone for that now and all we can do is walk among non believers and unspeakable evil in the world to try to share the light of Jesus in a dying world. That can be the hardest thing to do when you live here. Especially for a new Christian.
If more people would read the Bible and just watch the (Real)news today, they would see how the Bible predictions are 100% true 100% of the time. No other track record like that in anything of this world. So why be in the world?
If you had a chance to buy a lottery ticket that may have a 40% to 60% chance of winning or one that has a 100% chance of winning, which would you choose? I know my answer but what is yours?
Look, we can't change the things of this world and all the wealth and knowledge here on earth gets us nothing. NOTHING! So why pursue it? The Bible tells us to store our treasures in Heaven and not here on earth. Why do you think that is and what does that mean? Well storing anything here on earth will eventually rot or be stolen. The Bible says to store your treasures in Heaven (Meaning the things you did here to help others and souls you helped bring to Jesus Christ.) That's what matters, all else fades like the flowers.
One day we will all be judged by Jesus and he will say either Well done my good and faithful servant or What have you done?
Some people have it all wrong and think they are saved by their works here. As long as I believe there is a God and I feel i'm a good person then i'm ok. WRONG. We are not saved by our works here but only by the Grace of God. We are saved by Grace through Faith. We must all have Faith in Jesus because the time is very short and souls are dying every day that didn't know Jesus.
Some debate is good but I refuse to get into a downright argument with anyone anymore. It solves nothing and people just dig in and fight for their view which causes more separation and hate. The enemy (Satan) wants separation. If we are all separate in our thinking and our ways we will never come together to worship Jesus. Satan is a liar and he is the father of all lies from the time with Adam and Eve in the garden until Jesus returns. He wants us all so lost and so unable to see eye to eye that all he has to do is come and claim our lost souls in the end.
I agree there are a lot of things in this world that shake the faith of every man but we need to rise above that and take hold of the promise that God is real and Jesus is coming back for his bride (The Church). Allowing the world to influence us just leads us astray and unfocused in life.
Everything in the world comes down to this. LOVE or lack there of. If people would learn to love one another in their hearts and have a relationship with the Father in Heaven and his Son Jesus, we would all be filled with the Holy Spirit and the world wouldn't be where it is today. The Bible states that the ways and thoughts of a man are wicked meaning the way we think is worldly. We have to see things from a perspective of Heaven to earth and not earth to heaven. What man thinks is right really is not. We are to follow the examples that Jesus set for us in the Bible to really be free from this world. Otherwise you are part of the world. Jesus tells us as Christians that we are to be separate from the world.
Look i'm not trying to bash anyone over the head with anything. All we are to do as Christians is present the Gospel to people. Jesus died on the Cross to save us from our sins. He rose again on the 3rd day and is seated at the right hand of God. The Holy Spirit (The comforter) was sent to us to comfort us here on this earth. We are to go out into the world as Jesus commanded us to do to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There is good and Evil in the world and we must be a light to this world and draw people to Christ.
Its sad because there is so much Evil and people just don't want to see or are blinded. The Bible states there will be signs in the Heavens and on the earth in the end. People that take the time to look will see. The Bible also states that in the end times there will be a rise in evil and an outpouring of the Spirit. You can see the rise in evil now and how wicked this world has become. The Bible states that the world will be just like in the days of Noah (During the flood) and also like Sodom and Gomorrah. Does anyone see that in the world today?
The Bible also states that people will call "Good" bad and "Bad" good. Everything will be backwards. Anyone see that today? When they say "Peace and Safety" then sudden destruction comes. Watch what our leaders are saying right now. They are saying those words exactly. Couple all that with everything going on in the world and signs in the heavens and the earth trembling and quaking more than ever and you can see the end is near. Repent and live!
Sorry I tend to get long winded. I also know I get off topic a bit but all good stuff here! I could go on for hours if I was talking. Typing is harder.
God Bless everyone that reads this and God Bless every one that comes to Christ before it's to late. Here today gone tomorrow. No one knows when their time is so why play games with your eternal destiny. Don't focus on the things of this world for we are only here but a short while as compared to eternity in either Heaven or hell. God Bless!

Wow I don't know what to say to all that. People really have a distorted view of the things of this world.

Indeed.

It all comes down to this, everyone believes in something. Everyone seems to think their way of thinking is correct. We argue and debate with each other to try to prove our points. WHY? So we can say HA! I was right.

That's not why I debate. I debate so I can learn more and it's served me well. I think many other people also debate for similar reasons, and some also do so for the reason you mentioned. Just to sort of act like they know.

I also debate in an effort sometimes to share my knowledge with others, I think you often make a lot more progress when you discuss things with people who disagree, rather than those who agree.

I'm wondering if you can look at your own statement and apply it to yourself though.

You basically said that and then you went on a huge long rant about how 100% of everything in the bible is true and all of that.. Which.. I think if I press you just a lil bit that will change, but who knows. I've debated a lot of Christians in my time and proof is on the lacking side majorly, so they often feel the need to try to go around the fact that proof is lacking and either just proclaim they don't debate anymore or they claim absolutes which perhaps sound logical on some levels, but it's more in a sophist way usually.

Now.. I could literally spend hours responding to every single point of yours that I feel like I could correct, but.. You already proclaimed you have no interest in debate and you just wanna sort of basically preach in a one sided way rather than to have a conversation about it. So.. I'm not going to invest that kind of time.

I will respond to one of your points. And if you want to continue from that point we can get to your other points in time.

In the beginning you said this.

At 54 years of age I have come to realize in my life that the God of the Bible is real and Jesus is his son and the Holy Spirit resides in us.

What is your number one most compelling piece of evidence for that statement? What was the biggest factor in you coming to that conclusion?

I said --- If more people would read the Bible and just watch the (Real)news today, they would see how the Bible ( predictions ) are 100% true 100% of the time. No other track record like that in anything of this world. Bible Predictions. I am still a student in the Bible so I am always learning an that's also another reason I don't Argue with people about it. Yes a debate is good and I agree its good to debate with people that see things different and not with people that agree with the same views as yourself. Well said on your part!
As for the reason I believe--Life experiences and just by looking around at the world. I used to believe in Evolution because that was what was pushed all throughout life. I now believe in Creation and see signs of it all around but thats another whole debate. I have gotten hammered by people in the past that are Atheists and want to disprove God so much that they make it their lifes work. All the more reason for me to believe. Why would people spend so much time to prove something they don't believe unless it was Satan behind the scenes pushing it. Just my view! We are all entitled to our own views.

This is pretty long, I'll put it in my notes list and check it out later.. What's it about exactly?

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