The greater good...?

Today I wanna talk about how...
I'm a bit overwhelmed with all this..
Justifying of immorality for various reasons, but specifically right now in a sort of "greater good" sense.

And I wanna try to keep it respectful and civil, so I will make the effort and if anyone comments I hope you do as well.
I admit that perhaps I'm a lil biased here because my mom believes these sort of things and I love her and wouldn't want people insulting her for her religious beliefs so likewise I don't necessarily want other people insulted either.
Just because I love her doesn't mean I can't disagree majorly but be respectful.
I've felt similar about other subjects.. Like.. Amanda was a Christian so despite my major disagreements.. I don't like it when people bash Christianity for no reason.
And in other ways with other people as well you know, who I care about, I realize they believe some pretty imoral things and I just don't want to devolve too much into insulting that kind of behavior.

Both because of love and respect for people I care about and because lately I'm realizing that you get your message across better when peoples shields aren't as up from feeling attacked or insulted or whatever.
So with that all out of the way.. Let's begin.

This train of thought right now starts through the last couple days, it goes back further.. Sure.. But a couple days ago is a good place to start.
Was watching a debate between vegans and RAW meat eaters, and.. By the time I finished watching it and was thinking about it..
I realized that most if not all of the people who Vegan Gains has debated have basically admitted to some really disturbing things in order to attempt to be logically consistent.

A few were better than others and claimed stuff like.. Animals just don't deserve rights because they can't communicate with us.
Stuff like that.. But.. Some of the others.. In order to remain logically consistent have basically said.. Rape and murder of humans is good.

I'm all for anarchy, but that doesn't mean I lack morality.
No laws = Good with me, but murdering or raping others for no justifiable reason = not good.
And a justifiable reason to murder other living organisms, even people in my opinion is survival..
I'm not sure there is a justifiable way to rape.. The only possible way I can think of might be like if there were only two people left on earth and you didn't want the whole species to go extinct.
Yet.. That prolly wouldn't work too well if she wasn't willing cause she could just kill herself or the baby.. Like.. I don't even see how it would work in the most extreme possible case.

I would kill an animal to survive if I was stuck out in nature or something.
However.. I'm not sure I could say the same about killing a person. I might rather starve to death than kill a person.
But since I can eat plants and not have to kill any sentient beings, why would I?
If plants were by some chance sentient, they're still less sentient and you eat something like 18 times less plants if you eat just plants instead of fattening up animals with them first.
So.. If plants were sentient and to be moral in that case if they were, shouldn't one live sort of minimalist in the sense that they should only eat as much plants as necessary to be healthy?

The fact we can even debate what we eat says a lot.
I can't prove it, but I doubt any wolves or lions or any other creature on the planet except us ever question what they eat and get together and discuss it.
This uniqueness to CHOOSE such kinds of things, I think is pretty implicative of higher functioning order. (OR in a weird sense maybe less, lol.. Maybe we have amnesia and don't know while all the other creatures do, lol)
And.. We also have morality much more than the animal kingdom as well.

A lot of people think morality is subjective and that's sorta where this thread is going..
I wouldn't say morality doesn't exist at all for animals, cause you see animals caring about each other and helping each other.
And likewise, you also see them do some horrible things to each other just like humans do, and I'm not talking about eating to survive..
I'm talking about rape and stomping babies or weak ones to death and things like that and the murder of their own species for non survival reasons.

However.. Still seems like if we are evolving, or if there are higher orders.. That humans are, and we can MUCH more think about and choose in regards to these kinds of things.
Assuming we have any free will at all. Heh. That's another subject though.

Okay so.. I just wanna clarify that.. I doubt my mother has ever said rape is good, BUT.. She as well as a LOT of other people have really taken to this subjective morality stuff...
Where there is no good or bad, just our perception of it. And she also sort of thinks that all of the war and rape and horrible things in the world are sort of.. Necessary or part of the process of our evolution to something better.
This has caused conflict to an extent with me before, because.. That's hard for me to agree with.
I can get her point to an extent.. That.. If you stop looking with human eyes and look through like.. God's eyes or whatever.. Assuming God even exists..
Then, it's all sort of part of the process or whatever.. I dunno.

In my mind I think.. If God is so powerful, why would it have us go through such horrible things?
That doesn't make a lot of sense to me and I can see a much better world without war and rape and I'm not even an all powerful God.
I feel like me a regular human could have designed things to be a bit better than this insanity.
Like.. If God is choosing all this rape and war and babies being bombed.. That's a really twisted god in my opinion.. I don't like that idea.. Maybe it's true, but I don't like it much.

Really quick I just wanna say I believe in both subjective and universal morality.
I don't think it's just one or the other but a combination of both.. So to me, each human has their own subjective interpretation, but there's also a universal one as well.
And in my opinion it's our job to line up to that universal morality as best we can according mostly to just the simple Golden Rule, or we might as well be back living in the jungle with no civilization or society and just raping and killing whatever we want.
To me, civilization and society sort of imply a morality, for we have to get along and the better we get along the better society works and the more we evolve and advance into creating space ships to explore the cosmos and internets and things like that.

So this brings me to a person I was arguing with the other night who had a similar kind of idea..
And those Raw meat eaters, they basically have a similar view of like.. "It's all natural, all the killing and rape and everything is just natural"
And it seems like.. They are able to differentiate between good and bad for their personal ego or selves, yet they sort of detach to this "God" consciousness and claim on another level that nothing is good or bad.
It's kinda weird.. On one hand they admit they don't wanna be murdered or raped or have bad thigns happen to them, but then they say in the same breath that ultimately there is no good or bad.. It's weird.

This guy I debated said.. "Everything is part of a greater good, even bombing"..

I pressed him on what he said and asked if also rape and torture were for the greater good and he said yeah, basically everything is for the greater good.
Wow.. Just wow.. This is the same mindset the people in power use.. They're like.. Well.. If we kill these people over here, then we can save these people.
And they basically play god with innocent peoples lives in the name of the "greater good".
This is a scary concept.. If you can murder millions of people or torture or rape and basically do whatever evil horrible thing in the name of the greater good.. What is going on there? How does that work?

How can you do the most evil things known to man in the name of the greater good?
Seriously.. Ahem.
Trying to stay respectful.. And I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this subject, but.. Please try to keep it respectful. Thank you.

PS This reminds me of the story of Cypher in the Matrix, the one who betrayed them cause he wanted to go back into the Matrix..
To me when I see people saying all the bad stuff is necessary, it's a sign of them sticking their head in the sand and ignoring it.
To me that's a much more accepting defeatist way of looking at it, it's like.. "I can't do anything about it, so it's just part of the greater plan"

But.. I think that kind of mindset kind of leads to such problems, if almost everyone were to stand up and say "NO, NOT ANYMORE" then it would change massively.
Though when they sort of just accept it and don't try to physically resist and change it in any way.. I think when we collectively do that in large numbers it's bad.
We need to more collectively resist and push back in large numbers, than to just passively accept such things.
I think if more and more people started saying NO, instead of saying.. "Okay, that's just how it is" things would be a lot better.