RE: Should Believers Turned Atheists Self-Censor What They Share?
Luke, you've always been incredibly respectful. And perhaps that's simply where you should draw the line.
Those who've rejected the faith of their parents in favor of atheism can often be the most vociferous atheism proselytes. It's kind of odd, IMO. Why would someone who doesn't believe really care if others believe? Of course, there is the fundamentalism that can be harmful. But if they're just believing and living a life that is loving and caring, why would someone want to change that?
OTOH, it's common for someone to come to believe a certain "thing" and then thinks everyone should know. They can often be very abrasive about it. I doubt that any belief system is an exception.
Being a Christian, I'd rather not read about your atheism. But, I read this article because of your respectful attitude and I have come to consider you a friend. If you had been derisive, I would have just moved on to the next article in my feed, more than likely. If you had done it a few times then I would sadly quit following.
Keep being respectful. If you want to post something that shares your perspective, make sure it's a respectful approach. Most memes are not. Much of the polemic material out there is sarcastic, which really helps nobody.
Thank you, Joe. :)
I consider it a great compliment to have someone who disagrees with me still read and comment on perspectives. I really appreciate that. I am working to have this conversation respectfully because I do think the conversation is important so we can understand each other which is the foundation for relationship.
Since you asked, I'll give an answer. Some views that are widely held are seen by others as acts of aggression (especially when combined with government). For example: is genital mutilation okay? Is it just okay with men but not with women? How do we decide? Do we let parents do whatever they want or do we have a responsibility to step in and help the helpless? What about restricting access to birth control? Studies have shown birth control can greatly increase human wellbeing for poor countries by giving them control over their reproductive lives and yet some religions actively work to prevent that which does harm people. There's also the argument that the moderate views give validity to the extreme views as they all fall within a non-falsifiable category of information which can't be refuted.
I could go on, but that's probably beside the point. What you believe works for you and brings meaning to your life (or else why would you believe it?). I lived that way for most of my life as well. It did bring me great meaning and explained a lot of things for me. I've since come up with better explanations (for me, personally) since then. The problem is, if I say that openly, honestly, and respectfully, it still often comes out as an attack on others because it implies I've moved to something better while they are stuck with something... unbetter. I haven't figured out a way around this. Honestly, I do think what I believe is better (or else I would believe differently) and I respect and appreciate others believe their view is better and I'm deceived. I'm okay with that also. When those views start turning into policy and lowering human wellbeing, then we have conflict. I'm still figuring out the best way to deal with that conflict and I'm not convinced just not talking about it is ultimately helpful.
The good news, to me, is that I do think both sides are trying to do good. One side thinks the lack of religion would improve things in the here and now while the other side thinks theistic belief (and maybe even more of it) could improve things in the here and now and for all eternity. Both sides, I think, are trying to improve wellbeing. They clearly have widely different timescales though.
Thank you for your reply. If my future posts on topics like this cause you to unfollow, I totally understand and will not take that personally.
I don't think there's much danger in that, unless you have a strong lapse in character. :)
I could spend a few reams responding to your comments, but you've likely heard and even said most of it. Perhaps another day when the topic is more focused.
Hahah! Yes, great point. I probably did say (and strongly believe) much of what you might say. That's what makes this such an interesting and challenging process for me. I know how little other people's arguments would have changed my mind and yet I didn't study many things (how the brain works, etc) that I've studied now.
Either way, if two people who disagree on something so fundamental to their identity can still be friends and learn from each other, that's a valuable thing to be repeated in society. :)
This, IMO, is where many fail. The Christian fundamentalist yells at people, judging while attempting to beat them into salvation rather than show them the love of Christ. Which is more endearing? Which shows what's at the heart of the gospel?
There are many challenges to an interfaith or believer/atheist relationship. I wouldn't recommend it for marriage, for instance. But if folks hold honor, honesty and integrity in high esteem, and are humble and gracious in their personality and demeanor, they can still be the best of friends. I think perhaps the hardest part is that a Christian who truly loves a good friend will constantly be desiring to see their salvation. They must discuss it. But they can discuss it compassionately and respectfully in such a way that leaves the conversation open rather than bombastically and judgmentally, closing off the ability to discuss it later.
Indeed. The last couple of years have been very challenging for @corinnestokes and I, but I'm quite proud of how we've so far weathered the storm. In many ways, I think we're closer, but obviously in many other ways we are not. She still goes to church most Sundays and leaves it up to the kids as to whether or not they want to go too. We're still figuring that stuff out, but in the beginning there was a lot of hugging on the couch crying together.
Something to consider (which I had never considered previously): just as the Christian seeks to save their friend out of love for that friend, I think many atheists are essentially doing the same. They see their friend who they love stuck in a manner of thinking which negatively impacts them in ways that can't even comprehend. From that vantage point, they want to "save" them also. I think my business partner did that with me for about 8 years. Though we met in church, he left theistic thinking and we worked through that together as business partners and great friends for years after that. He was always patient and never threatening or demeaning. He taught me to search for counter arguments on my positions before sharing them with him as confirmation for my views. I started thinking, "How would Brett view this and what might he search google to refute it?" Eventually, over time, I stopped sending him things because the things I found refuting my views seemed more rational and involved fewer logical fallacies. That is a process I'm so very thankful to him for and, naturally, I'd like to return that favor to others who I care about because I also want them to live at peace with themselves, remove cognitive dissonance, etc, etc. I won't go on and on about the benefits of my current position, but know there are many, something which would have seemed absurd to me before. That conflict between how I imagined an atheist lived their life, treated their family, viewed love, morality, etc and how my good friend and business partner actually lived was a strong influence on me. It forced me to question assumptions I had and I now think that's always a great process.
It's interesting to me how the number one criticism many atheists have towards theists is their judgmental actions, any yet Jesus didn't judge the sinners much at all. He did judge those religious people who claimed to know things they didn't know, which is quite similar to the argument many atheists have.
When I posted these thoughts on Facebook, someone posted a reference to Psalm 14:1 and deleted it before I could post my reply (I sent it to them as a private message instead to which they simply replied "lol"). I realized how judgmental (and factually untrue) the claims were and how they were directly squarely at me. It was very judgmental. I too was that judgmental person, without even realizing it about myself.
Again, thank you. I really appreciate being able to have these conversations respectfully without all that judgment.
That's tough on a marriage anyway. I can't imagine how much more difficult when both claimed to believe when they got married.
Yes, I would say the same. :)
You should post a specific or two in an article sometime for discussion. IMO, there is no cognitive dissonance, though there certainly are some challenges and unknowables. Of course, that exists no matter what one's worldview is.