I believe that 99% of the time, those "fighting for our freedom" (in the US) aren't fighting for the continued existence of their people. It's pretty much common knowledge that they are bribed into fighting for the one percent after being backed into a socioeconomic corner. In that case, I agree that they are deluded into national pride.
That being said, there are plenty of nations, or peoples, who are proud of their modern achievements in the fight for the preservation of their identity. If a people becomes apathetic and divests from their tradition and heritage, it will be taken from them. For example, the US government has perpetuated cultural genocide on American Indians, but they keep fighting for their traditions. They are quite the opposite of weak or unaccomplished. They continue to fight and pass down tradition in spite of being massacred and starved. I would be very proud if I was a part of such a nation.
But ethnic groups and nations have achieved the preservation of their traditions, their values, and their livelihood. Nothing wrong with being proud of your forefathers who fought for your people's right to exist.
Carlin's quote makes sense in the US, where the American people have been reduced to a homogenous mass of individuals. We are exactly where the State wants us: helpless. At best, one belongs to a nuclear family unit, the church, school, or sports team. That is the extent of any real communal pride most of us feel.
My issue is this: patriotism/nationalism, being a fan of a particular football club, etc...it's a form of psychological investment.
It is natural for us to invest ourselves into an idea. What a thousand people marching, waving American flags, have in common is not love of the country that they live in, but an investment in an idea of love for the country. The thing I observe frequently is that the majority of people heavily invested in things outside of themselves (God, country, football club) are those who find little or no deep meaning or emotional investment in ideas closer to home - no deep love for their work, no meaningful connections with others and a sense of powerlessness (which is compensated through feeling part of the group).
My hope is that people can find ideas to invest their energy in a little bit closer to home.
A quirky example: To preserve a nature park, you don't need to love it because it's an American park - you can love it because it is beautiful and special.
I agree @anarchospace the national pride that we are told to feel on July 4 is more of a covert mobilization effort to keep the imperial machine alive. But I wasn't talking about Americans.
I was responding to your Carlin quote, "why...be proud of any [nationality/ethinicity]?"
My point is that if one doesn't take pride in their heritage and tradition, then it will be taken from them. Those who still fight to preserve what's left of their traditional culture do indeed have very much to celebrate. It's not just some birth trait. People fight and die to this day for the self determination of their people.
Most Americans have no idea what it means to truly fight for their traditional heritage, unless you consider metropolitan consumer culture to be a tradition.
I used Americans as an example, but I was speaking in general. I have many friends in the Balkans and I can tell you that patriotism/nationalism is not a very useful thing for people there. It allows them to be manipulated and leads to loss of sovereignty, not to its strenghtening.
The most powerful advocates for sovereignty in Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia that I know are libertarians and conservatives who very much feel like citizens of the world, but love their homes, their languages. They may even be patriotic, but that in itself is not their strength, while it can potentially be a weakness.
It is their principles and love of freedom, and respect for their fellow man that keeps their traditions and values strong.
Forgive my ignorance, but does love of freedom/ respect for one's fellow man negate nationalism? People like to live near those who share their values and traditions. It makes for good society and economy. I believe different groups can respect each other while maintaining boundaries.
If you have nothing to be proud about or you are too weak to work towards something worthy then well, yes national pride might be something for you.
I believe that 99% of the time, those "fighting for our freedom" (in the US) aren't fighting for the continued existence of their people. It's pretty much common knowledge that they are bribed into fighting for the one percent after being backed into a socioeconomic corner. In that case, I agree that they are deluded into national pride.
That being said, there are plenty of nations, or peoples, who are proud of their modern achievements in the fight for the preservation of their identity. If a people becomes apathetic and divests from their tradition and heritage, it will be taken from them. For example, the US government has perpetuated cultural genocide on American Indians, but they keep fighting for their traditions. They are quite the opposite of weak or unaccomplished. They continue to fight and pass down tradition in spite of being massacred and starved. I would be very proud if I was a part of such a nation.
But ethnic groups and nations have achieved the preservation of their traditions, their values, and their livelihood. Nothing wrong with being proud of your forefathers who fought for your people's right to exist.
Carlin's quote makes sense in the US, where the American people have been reduced to a homogenous mass of individuals. We are exactly where the State wants us: helpless. At best, one belongs to a nuclear family unit, the church, school, or sports team. That is the extent of any real communal pride most of us feel.
My issue is this: patriotism/nationalism, being a fan of a particular football club, etc...it's a form of psychological investment.
It is natural for us to invest ourselves into an idea. What a thousand people marching, waving American flags, have in common is not love of the country that they live in, but an investment in an idea of love for the country. The thing I observe frequently is that the majority of people heavily invested in things outside of themselves (God, country, football club) are those who find little or no deep meaning or emotional investment in ideas closer to home - no deep love for their work, no meaningful connections with others and a sense of powerlessness (which is compensated through feeling part of the group).
My hope is that people can find ideas to invest their energy in a little bit closer to home.
A quirky example: To preserve a nature park, you don't need to love it because it's an American park - you can love it because it is beautiful and special.
I agree @anarchospace the national pride that we are told to feel on July 4 is more of a covert mobilization effort to keep the imperial machine alive. But I wasn't talking about Americans.
I was responding to your Carlin quote, "why...be proud of any [nationality/ethinicity]?"
My point is that if one doesn't take pride in their heritage and tradition, then it will be taken from them. Those who still fight to preserve what's left of their traditional culture do indeed have very much to celebrate. It's not just some birth trait. People fight and die to this day for the self determination of their people.
Most Americans have no idea what it means to truly fight for their traditional heritage, unless you consider metropolitan consumer culture to be a tradition.
I used Americans as an example, but I was speaking in general. I have many friends in the Balkans and I can tell you that patriotism/nationalism is not a very useful thing for people there. It allows them to be manipulated and leads to loss of sovereignty, not to its strenghtening.
The most powerful advocates for sovereignty in Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia that I know are libertarians and conservatives who very much feel like citizens of the world, but love their homes, their languages. They may even be patriotic, but that in itself is not their strength, while it can potentially be a weakness.
It is their principles and love of freedom, and respect for their fellow man that keeps their traditions and values strong.
Forgive my ignorance, but does love of freedom/ respect for one's fellow man negate nationalism? People like to live near those who share their values and traditions. It makes for good society and economy. I believe different groups can respect each other while maintaining boundaries.
Carlin really put is best...
Now Carlin would have drained the swamp, RIP.