REPOST: Parenting: Discipline, child rearing, violent entertainment, a very touchy subject [Original Post: August 29th, 2016]
I am taking a risk in posting this. This is a very touchy and personal subject. I do not agree with the popular trend of society on a lot of things related to children and raising them. I am well aware I likely hold some unpopular views. I will strive to explain my positions and why. This could end up being a long post.
I am 45 years old. I have six children who are all adults now, and some grand children. Two children (the youngest) are mine biologically. The other four are biologically my second wife's. I raised all of them except the eldest two. I did have some interaction with them, but they were old enough that I didn't have a lot of input into their up bringing. All of my children are close to 2 years apart.
I want to touch upon violent entertainment first...
Violent Movies, Video Games, etc
I watch a lot of horror movies, action movies, sci-fi, etc. I am also a gamer and will play almost any game existence. I played Dungeons and Dragons growing up. I listened to and loved all forms of Heavy Metal. In other words I am the perfect serial killer psychopath material simply due to my interests.
Yet Mozart's music was also considered the Devil's Music during his time...
I have seen most things I am interested in vilified most of my life. Yet I realize looking back that I look at the world in a weirder way than MOST people. I didn't view an Appeal to Authority as a reason a thing was true. If the news or some news caster said "you should not do X because it causes Y" I didn't necessarily believe them because they said it. I'd think about it long and hard, I'd do thought experiments, and I'd make my own decisions.
When the Columbine Massacre occurred and the world went all "It was the violent video games that did it!" and parents all over the nation began saying they needed to keep violent games and movies away from their children I thought about it before reacting. I also observed the effects this EXPERIMENT that now was pitched as a one size fits all solution to parenting would have on kids. I also was in a unique position that I saw some big flaws in the the NEWS STORIES due to being an avid gamer.
The perpetrators of the massacre were well off kids. The news was harping on Doom as the game of violence. Those of us playing games at the time chuckled and could see the story was just latching onto something. Why? These kids were well off. Doom was years old by then. It had been replaced by newer technology, and there were games like Postal that had been out for awhile that were far more violent and had actually a level where people were massacred on a playground. That game was too much for me, I could never get into it. Yet this existed before Columbine. So it was apparent what the media was doing... to me.
I had done similar research on D&D which had been blamed for murders, suicides, etc. I knew a dispatcher at a sheriff's office who shared a stack of crime reports being circulated nationwide about the dangers of D&D and I read through them. There were some cases it was true, just like there are cases a person might listen to the song Helter Skelter, be a nut job, and be inspired. Just like a nut job might read a Stephen King novel, or see a movie and be inspired. There are nut jobs who can be inspired by anything. So what did I actually see in these reports?
More often than not they would go into the persons room and they likely had a lot of books and other things in their room. They would take special effort to note that there was Dungeons and Dragons on their shelf.
This is a common scapegoat method that has been used for centuries.
Back to the violent entertainment
I let my children watch violent movies, I let them play violent games. Are you curious what the results were?
I had perhaps the most peaceful children in their school (it was a small school). When they saw violence they used their head, they did not get thrilled or excited by it. They were less ruled by emotions than some.
Are you curious what the result of various parents I knew with similar aged kids that they restricted this material from was?
They were the most violent children on the playground, and outside of school. At this same time all over the country I was seeing children becoming more disrespectful, less disciplined, and more likely to tell an adult on the street "fuck off!" when they were say 10 years old.
Source: giphy.com - not intended against the readers just example of disrespect
Observation, Question, Hypothesis
Observation told me something was not working as had been predicted by press, media, and parents.
So I asked myself why?
We are driven by curiosity, and love to observe. When we discover a new thing it is typically very exciting.
As children and even adults the taboo things attract us. You cannot drink until you are 21... How well does that work out? Don't touch the stove it is hot.... as a parent you've likely seen this ignored before. You cannot smoke until you are 18. How well does this work out? You shouldn't hang around with that boy, he is trouble... How often does that backfire? You can't look at porn... truly how well does that work out?
You're not allowed to play violent video games, you are not allowed to watch violent movies... Why would you expect that to work any differently?
I let my children experiment with those things but I early on taught them that games and movies are not real.
You could say they were desensitized to violence. You would be partially true. They were desensitized to representational violence. They still very much responded to violence in the real world around them, but they did so much differently from the children sheltered from it. They did not get a rush and excitement from seeing this taboo thing occur.
Columbine had many other factors. Violent Video Games were the scapegoat. Correlation does not equal causation.
One size fits all mythology...
For some reason humanity makes the same mistake over and over again. They see an anecdotal problem and they believe the solution to that problem is the solution to every problem of that type. This is usually wrong. Yet we keep doing this same mistake repeatedly.
- A rule that works for you child, may not work for mine. So why force it upon me by using the State?
- A rule that works for one of my children, may not work for another of my children. So do I learn and adapt?
- A person having a negative reaction to media or an event, does not mean everyone will have the same reaction, so should we ban it? If you say yes then anti-vaxxers are correct, because all vaccines do have negative side effects the numbers are simply low. So if you can ban media because you have anecdotal incidents where someone flipped out, why not ban vaccines no matter how low the negative effects may be?
- This education technique worked great for Timmy, Johnny, and Rosie... let's use it on all children.
We are individuals. Our children are individuals. You cannot stuff individuals into boxes. There is no one size fits all.
Spanking and Physical Discipline
The anti-spanking and orders on the best way to discipline your children box became very popular right when I was becoming a parent. Violence is wrong. I actually agree with this.
Psychological studies coming out showing positive reinforcement works better than negative also had a great impact. I do see merit in those studies, yet they did not study every situation. They studied certain ones where it definitely was true and then they extrapolated it to cover all situations. This is One Size Fits All again.
Studies such as that did have a dramatic impact on why this became the view and the norm.
Observation after maybe five years of this
I see more Door Mat (parenting class term) style parents, and children walking all over their parents and other adults than I've ever seen before.
Some circumstances it is difficult to come up with positive reinforcement for. Do we want to train our children to expect a gift anytime they do something good? Do we want to desensitize our children to hearing "That was a good job?" Human nature shows we are creatures of habit, and curiosity. We lose interest in the things that we are exposed to all of the time.
Let's look at the human body as an example:
There was a time that a woman showing her bare ankle completely excited men in the world. Why? They covered themselves up very thoroughly. Then you go to African tribes where women pretty much just have some kind of loin cloth and walk around with their breasts fully exposed. Breasts are not arousing or exciting to those people. Now we are in an age where if you show ankles or indeed most of the body we can say "she is beautiful" but not necessarily be sexually aroused. Show a bare breast and it could be completely different. Better yet show a bare breast that does not have the nipple removed....
Why would people think these psychological things that we see evidence for all the time and going back in history would have no impact on raising a child?
Spanking as Discipline
I was spanked as a child. Though not often. It typically was well warned in advance. I also remember going to 1st grade (1976) and seeing paddles on the wall of the principle's office with holes drilled through the wood. VERY DIFFERENT time.
Kids throwing a tantrum in a store or other place was a rare thing to see back then.
Let's get down to the brass tacks. Some people are assholes, some people are abusive. Not simply to children. There are going to be people that abuse their children with or without a rule. It is wrong. It is also anecdotal.
Again one size does not fit all...
I spanked my children. Yet it was extremely rare and under two very specific cases.
- If they did something life threatening to another
- If nothing was working, I'd warn them "you do that again and I am going to spank you". I believe consistency and lack of empty threats is important to parenting. (observation)
I had to do this very rarely. Though I will say this EVERY ONE of my children was very different from each other and every one of them responded differently to parenting. There was no EASY do it this way rule that worked.
I made my own rules. I told my children repeatedly that there was a reason all of my rules existed and they could ask what those reasons were any time and challenge them. If they could show me the reason was not valid we would toss it out. This doesn't work when they are really young but it does start to work in the 4 or 5 age if your children are people you talk to a lot so they build up their comprehension.
I believe talking to children a lot is important. I also believe that you shouldn't always dumb it down as they learn by being challenged. This may not work for all children, in fact it likely wouldn't. One size does not fit all.
When I spanked my children I did it with forewarning, I did it with my hand, and I did not do it out of rage, abuse, etc. I very much did not get any thrill or enjoyment from it, actually sadness. My wife would end up crying herself if she had to spank the children. I believe the crying mother may have had more impact on them than the spanking.
I know there are people that post very much against this form of discipline. I've read enough of it an bit my tongue. I do not believe in spanking as THE answer to be used for all discipline. I do think it has its place though.
I've had many parents lecture me about this and they had the most undisciplined rude, and disrespectful children I knew. I'd see them literally stick their tongue out at their parents back when they told them to do something.
The key here is one size does not fit all...
Yet violence violates the NAP....
I do not believe a person has authority over another...
As an Anarchist how do I reconcile this?
Answer: With great difficulty and always trying to revisit my thoughts on this.
Here are some important things I believe are important to note with relation to human children:
- We are not born with the ability to do most of the things nature requires of us to survive.
- We require someone to teach us and protect us as we develop.
- Nature itself teaches with both positive and negative reinforcement.
- Should a person learn to be aware of anger and the appropriate response to protect themselves, or should they having been sheltered from it instead view it with curiosity and ignore potential danger?
- Equal opportunity should be provided. Yet we are all individuals so what works for one may not work for another.
- We are fascinated by taboo things and things we are told not to do.
What does an Anarchist parent do?
That is for you to decide. One size does not fit all and this is a very tricky problem.
We need to teach our children to survive. We do need to teach them the NAP. Yet part of teaching them is that they need to be aware that violence exists and how to deal with it when it happens. How do they know that with no exposure to it? You can expect them to take your word for it. They might, or they might stick their tongue out at your back. Who knows? They are all individual people.
So this is one I truly have not reconciled from an Anarchistic position.
I'd say if you see children being abused physically such that there are bruises or other things, then something needs to be done. If you see a child being psychologically abused they definitely need to be helped. If you see a child being neglected (very common) they need to be helped.
When they reach an age that they are mature and they can survive on their own then at that time your authority over them should cease. They have entered the world hopefully as a full fledged NAP supporting Anarchist and can venture forth and bring new wonders to the world.
I do want to part with some considerations...
I had many bloody noses, wind knocked out of me, etc physical bullies when I was younger. I did learn to defend myself. Those were all short term and healed. I also received psychological bullying. I still bear the scars of some of those encounters decades later. I catch myself being conscientious of things and not doing things purely due to these psychological scars. To me this form of abuse is far worse than a bloody nose, or a spanking.
I also see psychological bullying as worse than it has ever been to my knowledge within our society, school systems, and on the internet.
Why?
How did we stop it before?
I stopped it before by punching the bully in the nose. When one of my kids who was small and intelligent was getting bullied a lot at school and the school did nothing about it after multiple trips to see them, I told him to kick them in the nuts and punch them in the nose. He never did it, and I did end up getting a lecture from the school. They enforce violence pretty well. They leave the door wide open for psychological bullying.
It impacted my child so much I pulled the two youngest out of public school and schooled them online and at home for years. The school system would do nothing.
So now we have increasing amounts of Trolls since that was how they got their thrill in school, or perhaps they were bullied psychologically in school, and now are seeking an out by trolling people on the internet. I don't know.
We see more and more stories of suicides related to this...
I can only tell you one thing for certain.
On size does not fit all!

Such an honest and detailed post! What I liked about it the most was that you were extremely genuine and spoke with extreme honesty which is quite rare these days. I completely agree with the 'one size does not fit all' approach. We are all different and so are our kids so what works for one may not work for another. While I am in no favor at all of spanking or hitting kids and I hardly ever slap my son, I do feel it is at times necessary. However, a slight slap-more like a firm pat on the back is my lender of last resort when I know my son needs me to be a little firm with him but the last time that happened was about 10 months back. Every kids responds differently to different disciplinary measures so it is good to experiment with new things and see what works with your kid. However, that does not man you should start spanking your kid all the time. This is not what you said and not what I am implying at all. Also, I agree with you when you say that when you forbid someone to do something, they become more drawn towards it so my strategy with my son is to educate him about things, warn him off the implications and then let him make his own decision which mostly is the right one in my opinion too. :)
These lessons are extremely important to us all. Thank you very much!
I'm scared of becoming a father because of what my parents did to me. :(
Just always take choices. Choose not to do the things they did to you. Do you treat other people now the way your parents treated people? If not. Then you are likely just fine.
Parents were kind to the whole world, save their children.
Of course, I don't scream at people for no reason or belittle them because I know how it feels.
Parenting is a tough job, and I am scared I may not be good enough. Also, with a family, there are many things I cannot do:
Now, I can just pack up and go anywhere on earth in hours.
Yes, it does tend to shut down possibilities. It creates new ones, but it is up to each person to decide whether they wish to go that way.
If you have learned things and wish to share them and have them live on after you. Many people perceive children as the path to insuring that. I did. Yet, we cannot predict or control our children so that is not necessarily true. Aspects of you will survive in them, but they are their own people. Individuals.
There are other paths. Being open and sharing your thoughts with others can lead to your ideas living on as well with or without children.
My parents gave me all the sadness - it was a herculean effort to get rid of it.
I don't know if can transmit anything because we are a complex interaction of varied influences.
For now, being single makes sense. Since change is the only constant thing in life, who knows what's in store?!
Nice post. If parents would pay more attention to their children and actually be involved with their lives many of our problems would start to go away.
My parents were very involved. Yet I also had freedom. I had the choice to listen to whatever music I liked and watch almost any television show or movie. I was taught right from wrong and that a person's actions have consequences. My parents trusted me to make my own decisions because they taught me well. I grew up listening to heavy metal, playing violent video games, watching violent movies, and playing with plastic guns. I'm not a violent person, I haven't been in a fistfight since I was a teenager. Never been arrested. I can separate reality and fantasy.
I never liked Marilyn Manson's music. But I found it sickening how he became a scapegoat for columbine. I was also shocked when he turned out to be a rational voice in the discussion of what happened and what could have been done to prevent it. It was much easier for parents to blame him rather than to look in the mirror and questions themselves over what part they played in this tragedy.
POINT TAKEN! If you believe you do what is best for your children, it will be the best. You know your kids best, and you know how to act, and that acting is for every child different, so also when all are yours. They have their own characters and behaviour, that needs their own way of "helping / corecting" them. Very good post! Thanks, you did your best.
woah...theres so much in this - thanks for sharing - its fascinating as a parent reading this from an anarchist parent that is now a generation removed from parenting.
I totally agree with one size does not fit all - i think thats a major problem with our education "indoctrination" system as a whole. The standards and structures are based on what has worked in the past for the majority. It is unable to handle individuality of children and support them accordingly. It also facilitates emotional abuse and trauma. The playground is a literal emotional war zone of dog eat dog and survival of the fittest. Unless you have a teacher that cares enough to step in with they see emotional bullying at play it will go under the radar.
I am in the middle of handling violence/sexuality/death with my children and what they are taking in from media/television/videogames. I probably find myself on the more conservative end of the spectrum. I think what I want to be is their point of exposure. My desire as a parent is to be their safe authority figure that is helping be the first voice of influence in their young brains in these different areas. Helping them build their ability to process and think for themselves - making a distinction between reality, what they see on the news and video game entertainment.
I do not come from the purist anarchists perspective in regards to the family unit. I believe I am as Dad, and what my kids need from me is to be their authority figure first. I believe that transitions into a friendship as the kids age, and of course that is different for each kid. I think a lot of the spoiled disrespectful kids that you mentioned in your post are actually a result of no authority figure in their home. It's easy to want your kids to like you and consequently shy away from addressing poor behavior.
Now, I don't want to be a jerk of an authority figure. So I will never spank my kids out of anger or frustration. And I try my best not to 'threaten' kids with 'if you do that one more time!'. My wife and I try and function as a clear safe boundary for my kids so they know and feel safe. When we do punish, if its a spanking or the losing of a privilege we will reconcile in that moment, and will not let our kids move on until they are stable and at peace with us.
*Disclaimer - parenting is the hardest thing I know - and I agree that like you state - one size will never fit all - so take all this with a grain of salt - and anyone point their finger at any parent and making blanket statements about how to parent is nutso...
thanks for pushing this dialogue
Every single one of my children was different. So I experienced one size does not fit all on a personal level in my house. They are individuals and we need to remember that.
It sounds like you shall do what you can and your head is in a good space. I believe MOST parents do truly have their children's best interest at heart, yet I believe they often let other people do their thinking for them and tell them how they should raise their kids. I am glad you don't have that problem.
thanks - its really good to hear from parents that have done it and don't claim some one way standard...appreciate your perspective...
Very well done, my friend! I too spanked- always as the absolute last resort. I was fortunate, I guess, my kids were pretty well behaved. My girls got one spanking between them, I think (I don't honestly remember which). My youngest son (not biological but I adopted the boys) I think got one... he got the point quickly. The oldest... He was another matter altogether! Spanking was, as I said the last resort and never out of anger or malice, or anywhere but the butt.
He began spitting on other kids on the school bus (before I homeschooled). The first time we had a "father & son" talk where I explained that this was probably not the best way to win friends. Also, that perhaps somewhere in the world this might be an acceptable form of greeting but in the good old USA- it was pretty much frowned upon. He continued. The next time he was banished to his room- meaning that he had to watch his own TV and listen to his own stereo (some punishment). The next time (oh yeah, there was a next time... and a next time) I made him stand with his nose on the wall for about an hour, to think things over. Apparently, his thinking and mine weren't in tune because he did it again. He was banished from the bus- and this time he got a spanking (didn't work that time either) The bright spot is that he picked the wrong kid in school and this kid did the spanking for me... couldn't say I didn't warn him!
There was a time in the US, when an entire generation of people were raised by parents influenced by one Dr. Spock, whose crackpot hypothesis was taken to be some lost Gospel. It resulted in an entire generation of emotionally stunted humanoids that continue to pass down their emotional retardation to future generations.
Nihil novo sub sole. There is no idea or theory that has not been tried and thought of before. Only our egotism blinds us to think that we "invent" new concept that improve on collective sum of millenia of human experience. We are not any more clever than our forebears. We are merely more "special."
Upvoted and also resteemed :)