An infidel reading the Quran #3
Finished “Surah 3 Al Imran” or more easily said: The family of Imran
“The Family of Imran or Surat Āl ʻImrān (Arabic: سورة آل عمران)[1] is the third chapter of the Quran with two hundred verses. Imran in Islam is regarded as the father of Maryam. This chapter is named after the family Imran, which includes Imran (Joachim), Saint Anne, Mary, and Isa (Jesus). The chapter is believed to have been revealed in Medinaand is either the second or third Medinan surah as it engages both the Battle of Badr in its first section and the battle of Uhud at its end.”
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Imran)
So, in my understanding (correct me if i'm wrong) Imran is the father of Mary, the mother of Jesus. I also did some digging, and found out that there is a chapter for Mary later in the book, and the Quran does refer to Mary/Maryam more than the new testament does.
Surah 3, does mention Maryam, but does not “evolve” around her per se.
I have a lot of verses I want to share, and some thoughts which I would very much like to get some wisdom or opinions on by you, the reader. It would be interesting to get a perspective from a muslim, other believer, or someone with some sort of religious and/or philosophical background. But of course, all opinions and contributions are appreciated.
My thoughts will be under the quotes.
Like my last post, I´ll separate the verses that hangs together ( verse 10 - 13) from those who stand alone ( verse 19)
Here are the quotes as written in my translated version of the Quran:
Surah 3 Al Imran
Section 2
10: Those who reject Faith - neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against Allah: they are themselves but fuel for the Fire
11: (Their plight will be) no better than that of the people of Pharaoh, and their predecessors: they denied Our Signs, and Allah called them to account for their sins, for Allah is strict in punishment
12: Say to those who reject Faith: ´Soon will ye be vanquished and gathered together and driven into Hell - an evil bed indeed (to lie on)!
19: The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will): nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the signs of Allah, Allah is swift in account
Section 4
31: Say: If ye do love Allah, follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.´ 32: Say:Obey Allah and His Prophet´ : but if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith.
Section 5
45: Behold, the angels said: ´O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;
46: ´He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous. ´
48:´And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,
49:´And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): “I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Alla´s leave: and i heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah´s leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe
52: When Jesus found unbelief on their part he said: ´Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?` Said the disciples: “We are Allah´s helpers: we believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
Section 6
55: Behold, Allah said: O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute 56:As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help
59: The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: `Be´ : and he was.
60: The Truth (comes) from Allah alone; so be not of those who doubt
67: Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah´s (which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.
69: It is the wish of a section of the People of the Book to lead you astray. But they shall lead astray (not you), but themselves, and they do not perceive!
77: As for those who sell the faith they owe to Allah and their own plighted word for a small price, they shall have no portion in the Hereafter: nor will allah (deign to) speak to them or look at them on the Day of Judgment, nor will he cleanse them (of sin): They shall have a grievous penalty.
83: Do they seek for other than the Religion of Allah? - while all creatures in the heavens and on earth have, willing or unwilling, bowed to His Will (accepted Islam) , and to Him shall they all be brought back.
85: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).
86: How shall Allah guide those who reject faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Messenger was true and that Clear Signs had come unto them? And Allah guides not a people unjust
87:Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of Allah, of His angels, and of all mankind;
89: Except for those that repent (even) after that, and make amends; for verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Section 11
102: O ye who believe! Fear Allah as He should be feared, and die not except in a state - of Islam
Section 12
116: Those who reject Faith - neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against Allah: they will be Companions of the Fire - dwelling therein (for ever).
Section 14
134: Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity, or in adversity; who restrain anger, and pardon (all) men; for Allah loves those who do good;
141: Allah´s object also is to purge those that are true in Faith and to deprive of blessing those that resist Faith
Section 15
144: Muhammad is no more than a Messenger: many were the Messengers that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, would ye then turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm would he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) would swiftly reward those who (served Him) with gratitude.
Section 16
149: O ye who believe! If ye obey the unbelievers, They will drive you back on your heels, and ye will turn back (from Faith) to your own loss.
Section 18
176: Let not those grieve thee who rush headlong into unbelief: not the least harm will they do to Allah: Allah´s Plan is that He will give them no portion in the Hereafter, but a severe punishment.
Section 19
185: Every soul shall have a taste of death: and only on the Day of Judgment shall you be paid your full recompense. Only he who is saved far from the Fire and admitted to the Garden will have attained the object (of Life): for the life of this world is but goods and chattels of deception.
186: Ye shall certainly be tried and tested in your possessions and in your personal selves; and ye shall certainly hear much that will grieve you, from those who received the Book before you and from those who worship many gods. But if ye persevere patiently, and guard against evil - then that will be a determining factor in all affairs
Section 20
198: On the other hand, for those who fear their Lord, are Gardens, with rivers flowing beneath; therein are they to dwell (for ever) - a gift from the presence of Allah; and that which is in the presence of Allah is the best (bliss) for the righteous.
Feeww, that was a lot to typing. Ok, so here are my thoughts:
I am no way near to finishing the book, so please take this into consideration. I am kind of surprised how much the book evolves around fear. You should fear Allah, and you should fear the grievous punishment that awaits for the unbelievers. I have always thought (may be a delusion) that Christianity focus more on “god loves you” and you should not fear god, rather follow him out of your love and devotion. I do not have this same impression after reading the three first verses of Islam. Now, I can be mistaken about Christianity and of course the Priests whom i've listen to may speak a very soft version of the new testament. I guess someone can comment on this, but i will get the answer when i'm reading the New testament later. So, potential muslim readers, do you devote yourselves and your lives to Islam out of fear of Allah and the potential punishment? Or out of love? or a little of both?
Another thing that keeps coming to my mind is this. Are the act of not believing in Allah evil in itself? Can you be an unbeliever but still a good person? I am asking cause the Quran mentions constantly that Allah loves good acts, and will lead you away from evil. But it also severely threaten me, and others who does not believe. It also says Allah is most merciful and “oft-forgiving”. But as i previously mentioned, the punishment of rejecting faith is to be “fuel to the fire”. Does this mean that Allah is most merciful, but can not forgive us not believing in him? What is best? Believing in Allah, but constantly breaking all his laws as stated in the Quran? or not believing in Allah, but unknowingly following his laws or in general living a life with only good deeds?
The reason i give these oppositions is because being good, is not the same as having faith, something I hope we all can agree on. Is the belief in itself so important that it blatantly overthrow everything else on the latter of importance? And if so, is the punishment of eternal fire justifiable?
I took many of the quotes about Mary and Jesus mostly cause I think many who read this are either Christian, or read this with a better knowledge of Christianity than Islam, and I would appreciate if you share some of the differences in the new testament and the verses i stated. For the moment this can be hard since it's only a few quotes, but there will be more on Mary and Jesus in later posts as well :)
"http://weheartit.com/mybeautyishijab/collections/24330521-al-quran?page=3&before=53081065"
I hope you enjoyed the post
Later!
Hi,
Let me quote an Islamic scholar Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allah have mercy on him)
“The level of fear that is praiseworthy and appropriate is that which prevents a person from transgressing the sacred limits of Allah, may He be glorified and exalted; if the fear passes that limit, there is the risk that it will led to despair and despondency.”
I’m not a scholar, nor am I a student. My knowledge of religion is not much, but I will try to explain based on what I know.
Fear in Allah, is fear in committing sins, doing bad and fear in disobeying him. We don’t fear Him like kids fear Freddy Krueger from Elm Street or like one fears his enemy. It’s not fear that result in hating and hiding, but it is fear that results in love and finding. And the fact that there is a clear description about punishment, is justice. One can’t have excuse that he didn’t know, we got all the information we need and the choice is in our hands.
Of course, there are people that commit good deeds and are not Muslims. And not all people that call themselves Muslim are Muslims. It is not just a label you can put on and remove whenever you want. And when someone commit crime, it doesn’t matter what his religion his, all pay equally and when one commits good, his good deed will not be lost. To come back to your question, why can’t you be good while not believing in Allah. The answer is simple. For example, let’s take a murderer. So, you have one crazy dude that kills people, but he commits a lot of good deeds, like caring for animals, helping homeless children. Will you consider him good? Of course not, you will want him to be jailed or killed and you will never forgive him for what he did. I think we can agree that killing is a big sin. As Muslims, we believe that the biggest sin is disbelief in Allah. You can do a lot of good deeds and it will help the community, but by disbelieving in Allah you harm yourself.
What if the person is a muslim who kills a lot of people (in the name of 'Allah') but still does good deeds?
For killing innocent people there is death penalty, regardless how many good deeds you commit.
@doetwa In Islam, there are very strict rules for killing and even for waging war, there are certain rule-set which have to be followed. In short, you cannot kill any innocent human being which is not in directly engaged in war with you, unlike in battlefield. So any person who does this is clearly violating all the rules set by Islam and this act should not be associated with Islam.
Maybe you have heard about that verse of Quran
"Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors."(Quran,Chapter 5, Verse 32)
@doetwa @needofhour @nime Please comment the name of the person you are responding to, just to avoid confusion :) Thanks for your comments.
What about the verse that speaks of the rock that cries out to the muslim to kill the christian or jew that is hiding behind it? Why are there so many muslim terrorists that are killing innocent people? What is "innocent" according to islam? Is a person who chooses not to believe in allah still innocent? Or are only other muslim innocent people?
@doetwa Definition of innocent is same as found in dictionary, if you are not involved in direct warfare then you are innocent. You cannot claim that every major world religion don't have black sheeps, there are no 100% good Muslims, Christians or Jews etc and as i have said earlier Islam is against innocent killings whether Muslim or not.
It is a general logical rule that whenever something is quoted from any book or religious scripture, it should be according to context and that stone reference you gave is scenario of war
You question is going in another direction but i don't want to ruin post of Epsicktick because he is discussing another point in this post. Maybe you can yourself post about it and i would love to answer
I agree fully that there are no 100% good people in any segment of society. However the number of those in islam appears to me to be quite high when compared to any other segment of society. You cannot deny the constant and persistent rate of suicide bombings, knife attacks and rapes perpetrated by people of muslim faith. When I look at people from the jewish, christian, hindu, sikh, new age, mormon faiths, I do not see the same violence. Why is that?
@doetwa but you would have noticed have in those parts of world where Muslims are in minority, their rights are violated to highest level. Its a fact that in recent mas shootings in USA for 2016-17 more people were killed by 'White extremist' but it still does not prove that all Christians are like this, there are more good Christians in USA i believe.
So, my point is wrong thing is not justifiable, all things you mentioned rape, terror, horror etc , it is not essence of Islam, actually against it
That is not true. In the UK, the rights of the muslim population are not being suppressed, to the contrary. There are still many terrorist attacks perpetrated by muslims in the UK - just look at this year alone. Also look at France, Belgium, and Sweden. All these countries do their best to appease their muslim population yet they experience increased lawlessness, rape, violent attacks and murder. When you consider countries like Poland and Hungary, you see no such attacks. Why is that?
Hey @nime thanks for your comment. My example was not about a non muslim committing murder. It was someone who in all accounts lived a "perfect life" in the eyes of the Quran unknowingly, but without belief. How is that more evil, than a believer who murders, rapes or tortures? Cause you said it yourself, the biggest sin is disbelief in Allah, which in turn means the worst muslim, is still better than the best "non-muslim". To me, that is nuts. It's not logical.. And i must say, the whole idea of sending people to burn for eternity is not an act I deem justifiable in any way, no matter the crime committed, and i'm pretty sure a lot of others agree with me on that one. Wich in fact makes us more merciful. In that logic, Allah can not send non believers, murderers or rapers to burn for eternity, cause he is most merciful, or "more merciful" than all of us.. Would that not make the limits Allah set, (and the punishment) a fiction of imagination to put fear in the hearts of humans who without the guidance of the Quran would commit many evil acts?
And just to quote Surah 2 Verse 178:
Surah 2 Al-BAQARAH THE HEIFER
178: O ye who belive! The law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: The free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude; This is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty
Do you think it's justice that i get to kill your sister, if you have killed mine? I don't believe it is, I believe it is in all accounts.. murder.
@epsicktick I understand you are slowing progressing in this reading Quran, so you will find that Allah has mentioned his mercy empowers his anger.
Please don't mind but I think you are interpreting this verse Surah 2, Verse 178 wrong, this verse in context say that suppose if i have killed your brother, then your family can demand my death(killer only).
@epsicktick regarding your opinion about belief and good character. I know you are a great critical thinker and you would agree that everyone person has the ability to differentiate between good & bad deeds, similarly right & wrong path. Even if someone was living in jungle alone for his whole life and leading good life with his family, he would also someday realize that what is the purpose of all this creation, how everything came into order, so by being logically following your mind, i think everyone eventually stumbles upon the truth. So belief concept starts very later. First you have to find the ultimate truth by exploring things deeper
By the way why you always call yourself infidel?
I highly doubt that a raper can be at the same time a believer. Of course in his own eyes he can be one, but you are not a Muslim just by saying you're a Muslim. Dying in the state of Islam, while being a Muslim is not easy. There are rules to follow. You can't just write Muslim on your forehead and run around doing crazy stuff. So you can't compare a rapist to the worst Muslim. And I highly doubt that someone can live a perfect life according the Quran and remain a disbeliever. Let's take for example a son that ignores his mother for no reason, like she never existed, but he is good to other random people. Can this person be good? He is unjust to someone who gave him birth and raised him. What are his good deeds worth after all. So, when you believe in God, you also believe that He is Creator of everything. Every single cell in your body. You can see, hear, feel, think, enjoy and all because of Him. Do you feel how unjust one is by disbelieving in Him?
@needofhour Yes, maybe I do interpret it wrong, cause to me it seems if i kill a woman, the woman's family can demand the killing of a woman in my family to punish me. Even though i'm the killer, i'm a man, hence not a woman for a woman / man for a man. A man living in the jungle would live a pretty neutral life in my opinion, not necessarily good. For me the purpose of life is pretty simple actually. Evolution threw reproduction. This is the only thing that accounts for all life on earth, either you survive long enough to reproduce (therefor being a part of the future evolution). Or you die before, still in a way doing your part. This gives all life meaning, and gives me a lot of freedom to choose what I want my life and legacy to be about. Of course this was a short version, I want to make a post on the meaning of life eventually. But tell me, what is the ultimate truth to you?
Yeah, maybe his mercy empowers his anger. But that does not make it justifiable, that makes it closer to revenge. Which again makes Allah less merciful than let's say Scandinavian states who does not practise death penalty or torture (which eternal fire is), and focus on rehabilitation instead. Which in my thinking can only mean he is less merciful and many good people and I will go to hell, or he is most merciful and we will go to paradise regardless.
I do wonder though, do animals go to paradise? Is it a sin for muslims to kill animals unnecessarily?
Infidel: "a person who has no religion or whose religion is not that of the majority"
I do not have a religion, I don't believe in god. I believe we created god(s) in our image, not the other way around. I believe religion has served a purpose, to create order and unity among groups of people which in turn has made it easier/or possible for societies and civilizations to evolve.
Other than that, i find the title catchy :)
@nime I do not doubt that at all.
You have probably heard about the amount of child molestures among priests in the catholic church. It does not make them unbelievers. It just means they have committed a sin. And I understand you doubt someone living perfectly without faith, but in theory what if someone did?
No, to be quite frank. I don't find it that unjust. Sure it's nice to be appreciated for your deeds, but to me, it's not a contract. If i help someone, they don't have an obligation to return it and I won't hold it against them. Put in perspective: Allah made everything that I am, but that does not mean i'm obligated to believe and submit to him. And it would not be justifiable for Allah to punish me for it. And I certainly don't see how it can be the greatest sin of all.
@epsicktick The picture you gave of life is pretty obvious, that is too mechanical life according to me, Like you grow up, study, do job, pay bills, have relationships and die. This cycle has been going on for very long time. Yes, you can lead a good in this minimized scenario too but it’s too limited and normal. I believe there should be something special in everyone’s life.
Yes, unjust killing of animals is prohibited.
I think Darwin’s theory is flawed logically and it is still a theory but I like you analysis of this religious book and I think your first question should be why it is said that Quran is a word of God?
You should kindly read about scientific facts and signs in this book, like big bang theory, black hole etc. Non-religious historians confirm that this book predates back 1400. So 1400 years back there was no major scientific evolution like today, so how can there be verified scientific facts mentioned in this book and how?
And yes your catchy title attracted me towards your post :)
To me its not mechanical at all, and has nothing to do with how you live either :) It is in some ways simple, but it aswell gives us alot of freedom. I find evolution very fluid in every way. not just technological or biological, but in other subjects such as religion, politics and ideologies aswell. Not to mention that by that by this meaning everyhting you do that brings the world forward in a sense, is a good act. I will look into what you said about black holes, but you can find other unaswered questions in other religions and cultures aswell. For example stonehenge, egyptain pyramids, mayan buildings/and understanding of the universe. I am pretty sure the mayans had drawings of black wholes, and we have no clue how they managed to build with such perfection. And the mayans build it long before the Quran was ever written.
You said his mercy empowers his anger. Not that he has more mercy than anger.
@epsicktick Empower His anger means he is more merciful than being angry.
Yes, there are unexplained things mentioned in many old civilizations but only some remains true or justifiable. Like you would have witness that in 2012 there was common misconception that world is going to end on 2012 according to Mayan calendar.
So till now, i have only find this thing in Islam, that whenever its talks of something in terms of physical world, it has not been proven wrong.
No it does not. It means his mercy "power up" his anger. So thats why I got confused. But anyways.
When it comes to the end of the world.. The mayans calender ended.. Why it became a "thing" that the world would end i dont know. If you go to Yuacatan, and are lucky enough to visit chitzen itza and tulum, you would understand what im talking about. As my guide told me "We have no clue how they managed to build it, absolutely no clue. We would not be able to do it today". I dont know what you mean with "true or justifiable", but if you have only found it in Islam, then maybe you have to expand your search ;).
Im gonna end the conversation on this post now, thanks alot for your comments, gave me some interesting perspective! I hope I see you in the comment section on my next post on chapter 4 in a couple of days :)