Gays in Scientology: Dan Carmichael is in Texas
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Fat, Gay, and Mad
u/BrianBizTexas
My twin made fun of my disability while I tried to work towards getting clear. I wonder has anyone ever been directed to not be as abusive as possible during TR's or is being as cruel as possible always encouraged in Scientology?
It seems like it would be just as effective if Scientology training wasn't creating emotional scars for people. Are there good Scientologists who wouldn't make fun of someone being fat or gay, or is the idea to actually upset the person?
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Echo1883Mod, ex-HCO Staffer • 7d
Are you specifically referring to "bullbait" during TRs? The entire point of that exercise is to find those topics and statements you get upset by and then "flatten" them by repeating them. While I do think there is a culture of insensitivity and glorification of bullying in Scientology I hardly think TR 0 bullbait is part of that problem.
This is one of the very few useful things Scientology does IMO. I dont think TRs as a whole are the most effective way of teaching effective communication. However, I do absolutely think there is value in learning to not be outwardly effected by teasing and mockery. Ultimately being able to simply shrug off anything someone else says is a crucial life skill to have.
Of course you could be talking about something other than TR 0 bullbait... so correct me if that assumption was wrong.
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BrianBizTexasDeclared SP • 4d
Aside from the possibly that this teasing and bullying might actually improve myself image, why would a nice person like me want to bullbait/bully others who are already having very serious problems?
I would be required to push someone's buttons, right?
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vegan-setian • 4d
That is a good point, and one of the problems I saw with it. I knew I was strong enough and agreed with the end result, but I couldn't tell what was in the other person's head.
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Echo1883Mod, ex-HCO Staffer • 4d
(/u/BrianBizTexas might be worth reading my response to /u/vegan-seitan as well, since it details a lot more about what I see wrong with TRs in general than my responses to you did).
From my perspective this is one of the biggest problems with Scientology. It does not and really cannot be adapted and changed to fit the needs of the "patient" (so to speak). Some people respond well to exposure therapy type processes, others do not. A licensed therapist with real training and education on how to provide therapy would be able to determine this and would approach OP's case in a different way. Scientology however only has the one process that it uses on everyone, and it's left to the individual to make that process work for them, rather than finding the process that fits them and using that instead.
Its also worth pointing out that this exposure therapy style "bullbating" could potentially have great results in certain situations. In some situations a person could be made uncomfortable with some specific action, topic, tone of voice, behavior, or anything else and might have developed defense mechanisms to deal with that thing. However, that defense mechanism may cause more harm than it prevents, such as the person being unable to carry on a conversation in a constructive way when a certain topic is brought up. In some cases having them get more familiar and used to those things might help them overcome that learned behavior and become more effective at interpersonal communication.
All that being said, another major problem with that theory in practice when it comes to TRs is that the TR twin doing the bullbaiting is NOT a licensed therapist with the training and knowledge to know exactly how to apply this theory. They are just finding whatever makes that person uncomfortable and repeating it according to the Scientology process described to them in the texts. They are simply not qualified to be applying this kind of exposure therapy and therefore you get a situation like OP's where he feels personally attacked and degraded by the supposed therapy rather than feeling like his twin is attempting to help him overcome a problematic learned behavior. This is the downside of making what amounts to "do it yourself therapy" procedures like Scientology does.
As a side note, is the second half of your username a reference to Setianism, as in the Temple of Set?
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vegan-setian • 4d
Yes, and a play on a certain vegan meat substitute. I'm not affiliated with the Temple however.
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Echo1883Mod, ex-HCO Staffer • 4d
Interesting. I think I've only met one other Setian, but I find it a pretty fascinating belief system. Was it something you were into before/during your time in Scientology or was it something you found later?
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vegan-setian • 3d
I'll drop you a message shortly :)
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BrianBizTexasDeclared SP • 4d
I think at first it is fun to taunt another human being. However the mistreatment likely has long term complications.
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Echo1883Mod, ex-HCO Staffer • 4d
Actually almost every person I ever saw twin up for TRs who was not already familiar with the process had a somewhat hard time with bullbait. Not that they had a hard time being the receiver, but that they had a hard time purposefully engaging with their twin in a way that would push that person's buttons. Most people who are not inherently cruel or mean people have a natural aversion to intentionally upsetting others, even with ultimately good intentions.
I don't think its "fun to taunt another human being" for most people. I think most people who do taunt others are often insecure or attempting to hide their own problems behind cruelty. Its more often than not a defense mechanism in and of itself, a sort of get them before they get me mentality. Very few people simply derive pleasure from hurting others purely for the sake of hurting others.
I do agree with you that there is potential for long term issues when engaging in any form of exposure therapy, and there is plenty of research that supports that criticism of exposure therapy (which TR 0 Bullbait is essentially a very specific method of exposure therapy done a very specific way).
Ultimately the goal of TR 0 bullbait is to reduce the external reactions one displays when someone is talking to them. The original concept behind it was that one should not be outwardly uncomfortable when acting as an auditor regardless of what a PC brings up in their auditing session. In some cases this is useful, as it can help one overcome a nervous habit or uncontrolled behavior when one gets uncomfortable. For example someone who laughs uncontrollably when they get nervous or uncomfortable may find it interferes with their ability to appear confident or communicate effectively in their daily life. Reducing this outward sign of being nervous may help that person function better generally.
However, there is significant risk in doing this with someone who might be less confident in themselves. Its possible that in trying to help someone reduce their outward reactions that it only results in that person internalizing their insecurities more (thus reacting less, but feeling worse). This is one of the ways Scientology fails. The goal is constructive and helpful, but without the background of education and training required to ensure it is done correctly, with only those it can truly benefit, it can create deeper problems even while appearing to "work" (create the desired effect of less external reaction).
But that doesn't mean the goal is to make fun of anyone or that TR 0 bullbait or any other form of exposure therapy is mistreating anyone. Its just being used in every situation when it is in fact a niche method of therapy that should only be used in certain cases.
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BrianBizTexasDeclared SP • 4d
You are a psycho. Please don't send me anything else.
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vegan-setian • 4d
Found a button ;)
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• Echo1883Mod, ex-HCO Staffer • 4d
Ya... Scientology can help with that! Just sign here! And how would you like to pay?
(implied /s)
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• BrianBizTexasDeclared SP • 4d
That is the problem with Scientology and Narconon, they condition you to seek out other people's buttons. That is a problem, not something to repeat on people you don't even know.
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Echo1883Mod, ex-HCO Staffer • 4d
You are looking at the process in an odd way. You are approaching it as if this is the way Scientologists are told to act all the time, as well as looking at it like the purpose is to bully and tease, rather than to find the things the person is uncomfortable with and make them no longer uncomfortable with them. Bullbait is not something the Scientologist is supposed to do outside of TRs. The person doing the bullbait isn't the "student" in the scenario. They are acting as the trainer/teacher/guide. There are plenty of times in life where one acts in a way that would be unacceptable in certain situations because the situation at hand demands that kind of behavior, such as a drill sergeant or drill instructor instructing a recruit in the military. Their behavior would not be considered socially acceptable outside of basic training, but within that environment is used as a method of training.
As a disclaimer I am not saying that I think TRs are an effective tool. I think some aspects of them emulate effective methods of improving one's ability to communicate but I am not saying that TRs themselves are a perfect (or even all that effective) method of doing so.
Anyway, a lot of people doing TR 0 bullbait don't "bully" their twin. Plenty of people's "buttons" have nothing to do with things they are being mocked for. Though in your case perhaps people mocking you IS your big button. It certainly was not for me. For some people its certain topics (like talking about sex or violence or some other uncomfortable-to-them topic). For others its certain idioms or ways of talking. For some its being insulted. The perceived bullying you are seeing is not the norm for TR 0 bullbait, rather it was used on your specifically likely because that's the thing that got the biggest rise, and the whole point of TR 0 bullbait is to find the thing that gets the biggest reaction and work on it till it no longer produces that reaction.
But the point is that everyone has those things they are uncomfortable with, and the theory is that by exposing one to that thing repeatedly one can become less and less uncomfortable with it. Bullying is attempting to purposefully hurt someone in some way for negative reasons. It does not have the intention of helping that person become better. As such I would hardly call TR 0 bullbait "bullying" regardless of what is being said or whether or not its actually an effective method of therapy.
Again, I am not trying to sell you on the idea that TRs are actually valuable or helpful, but I do think you are entirely missing the theory of the exercise. Because you seem so focused on the perceived bullying aspect of that might be a good reason to seek real help from an actual licensed therapist (ie: not Scientology) to see if maybe you have some self esteem issues. I'm not going to try and ascertain what IS going on with you since I'm not qualified nor do I have enough information to hope to gain any insight. I'm simply pointing out that if what someone else says to you about your sexuality or your weight or anything else is that upsetting then perhaps you could use some real, effective help with your self image and self esteem.
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BrianBizTexasDeclared SP • 4d
You are looking at the process in an odd way. You are approaching it as if this is the way Scientologists are told to act all the time, as well as looking at it like the purpose is to bully and tease, rather than to find the things the person is uncomfortable with and make them no longer uncomfortable with them. Bullbait is not something the Scientologist is supposed to do outside of TRs. The person doing the bullbait isn't the "student" in the scenario. They are acting as the trainer/teacher/guide. There are plenty of times in life where one acts in a way that would be unacceptable in certain situations because the situation at hand demands that kind of behavior, such as a drill sergeant or drill instructor instructing a recruit in the military. Their behavior would not be considered socially acceptable outside of basic training, but within that environment is used as a method of training.
As a disclaimer I am not saying that I think TRs are an effective tool. I think some aspects of them emulate effective methods of improving one's ability to communicate but I am not saying that TRs themselves are a perfect (or even all that effective) method of doing so.
Anyway, a lot of people doing TR 0 bullbait don't "bully" their twin. Plenty of people's "buttons" have nothing to do with things they are being mocked for. Though in your case perhaps people mocking you IS your big button. It certainly was not for me. For some people its certain topics (like talking about sex or violence or some other uncomfortable-to-them topic). For others its certain idioms or ways of talking. For some its being insulted. The perceived bullying you are seeing is not the norm for TR 0 bullbait, rather it was used on your specifically likely because that's the thing that got the biggest rise, and the whole point of TR 0 bullbait is to find the thing that gets the biggest reaction and work on it till it no longer produces that reaction.
But the point is that everyone has those things they are uncomfortable with, and the theory is that by exposing one to that thing repeatedly one can become less and less uncomfortable with it. Bullying is attempting to purposefully hurt someone in some way for negative reasons. It does not have the intention of helping that person become better. As such I would hardly call TR 0 bullbait "bullying" regardless of what is being said or whether or not its actually an effective method of therapy.
Again, I am not trying to sell you on the idea that TRs are actually valuable or helpful, but I do think you are entirely missing the theory of the exercise. Because you seem so focused on the perceived bullying aspect of that might be a good reason to seek real help from an actual licensed therapist (ie: not Scientology) to see if maybe you have some self esteem issues. I'm not going to try and ascertain what IS going on with you since I'm not qualified nor do I have enough information to hope to gain any insight. I'm simply pointing out that if what someone else says to you about your sexuality or your weight or anything else is that upsetting then perhaps you could use some real, effective help with your self image and self esteem.
Isn't it normal to feel hurt if someone is rude to you and to feel good if someone is kind to you and values your work?
It seems like someone who would make fun of my weight or sexual orientation is the person who has the problems, not me.
You make it sound like my emotions are the problem, not hatred for those who are different.
You start off by telling me I am odd, then close by telling me to address my self image before other more important things like dangerous drug use!
Please never talk to me again.
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Echo1883Mod, ex-HCO Staffer • 4d
It seems you are entirely missing everything I am saying and reading only those things which reinforce your perceptions about the situation. It does not appear that you are interested in receiving any real advice or explanation. If you have a drug problem which is impacting your life please do seek help with that (just avoid Narconon).
I do hope that one way or another you find whatever will help you achieve the life you want free from harassment or negativity from others, in whatever form that takes.
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BrianBizTexasDeclared SP • 4d
Why don't you stop insulting protected minorities!
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BrianBizTexasDeclared SP • 4d
I hope you lose your fingers in a freak band saw incident over the weekend and never type anything to anyone ever again.
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vegan-setian • 7d
But if you did the TRs right, you wouldn't be mad. That's the point.
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BrianBizTexasDeclared SP • 4d
Nobody wants to have their weight or sexual orientation made fun of. So you might understand why I am hesitant to leave my interior decorating business, where I am complemented often, to go a place in the middle of nowhere where I would be insulted about my weight, style, ect...
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vegan-setian • 4d
The point of TR-0 bullbait is to decondition your reflexive reactions. I wouldn't care of they brought up my homosexuality or weight if those things were painful hang ups that would trigger me to act out automatically. TR-0 bullbait intends you to overcome everything.
I didn't like Scientology, but that was the only useful thing they did. I can understand why it would bother most people, but the end result was to liberate you from reactivity.
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BrianBizTexasDeclared SP • 4d
It doesn't sit right with me.
The website: http://narconon.org makes it seem like Narconon is a rehab place. It is apparently brain washing. Conditioning people to have a robot reaction, where their emotions are dulled and discounted, is something you might expect in a third world military camp...not a place where people are trying to get off drugs and treat their family better.
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ctrum69 • 6d
The entire point of the exercise is to get you to realize other people's words don't really mean much in the grand scheme of things, and that it's YOU who controls your reaction to them, not what they say controlling you. (Whether it's bullbaiting within scientology, or your Drill Sgt screaming at you in boot camp, or callout sessions at football camp). The point is to get people to stop being reactive to insults and jabs from others that are powerless.
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BrianBizTexasDeclared SP • 4d
If you lose your emotion related to being insulted, would you also lose some of the emotion when you are praised?
It seems like a double edged sword.
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ctrum69 • 4d
It's mostly about being able to control your emotional response.
For most people, that can happen as you take more and more control of things in your life. But, it's very common in "cults" to create an us/them relationship, which benefits the group, long term. But some also go so far as to "train" you to ignore criticism from outside.
Jason Bighe goes into some of it in his video about Scientology.
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TheFBOMod - Chaotic Neutral, Ex-Sea Org, Ex-Staff • 6d
If your twin is a human, I'm sure they would understand if you leveled with them and said "This is a line too far for me."
But gay and disabled are two groups that Scientologists look down on in a big way. If you're going to be involved with them, you should know they see your sexual orientation as something wrong with you, and your disability is evidence of your overts.
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BrianBizTexasDeclared SP • 4d
I am not a confrontational person, but it seems like a situation where someone could snap and sock their twin in the face.
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Blu-Moon • 6d
When I took the communication course and was doing TR's, my "twin" happened to be a Scientology employee, who was pretty respectful and easy on me. I can't say I got much out of it though. I guess you get what you pay for in Scientology.
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BrianBizTexasDeclared SP • 4d
How much was the course for just the communication?
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Blu-Moon • 4d
I believe it was $20, but it was about 15 years ago.
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revenimus8 • 5d
If you're talking about TR bull-bait, well .. yes .. If there really is something deep inside that hurts about it, you need to flatten your button on the subject. Being fat, gay and mad is only a 'bad thing' if you can't own that shit. Own that shit. Nothing wrong with being who you are. The only time its wrong is when you let other people decide that isn't good enough. Your twin is doing you a favour by pushing that button - get back at cause over the subject and it won't really matter what they think about your fat, gay, happy ass. That is the point of the bullbait drill - to harden you up about what other people think and put you back at cause over your own actions.
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freezoneandproudMod, Freezone • 5d
Once again we agree... with a little difference of perspective.
The point of TR0 is to "just be there, comfortably, in front of another person." That's a fairly simple concept, but as many of us learned, it isn't always easy to accomplish. We can all be distracted by other things (thinking about work instead of listening to the conversation with your spouse), or blocked by one's own internal baggage ("Why did he say that to me? Is it because I'm fat?"). So anything that helps you identify the things that make you respond with a knee-jerk reaction instead of "just be there" are helpful, because when we aim to "be present" and not to "react."
So far, so good.
One element of TRs is that they are meant to help us each auditor skills... and quite often I think that point gets lost. Whether you aim to be an auditor in fact or to adopt that role in other realms (you'd be amazed at the number of people who say, "It's so easy to talk to you about these difficult topics..."), the TRs are supposed to be in service of help someone to flatten his buttons. And on occasion I saw people lose that perspective. They want to be clever and funny, or they use it as an excuse to be mean, etc.
Still... if --when twinning TRs sincerely -- someone reacts to a bullbait of "you're fat" it doesn't mean that the twin thinks that it matters if you're fat. It means that the person responded to an accusation that "you're fat." It has no more or less meaning than pushing the button when the person responds to, "I saw you looking longingly at those chocolate-chip cookies."
I once had someone bullbait me -- it happened to be the course sup -- by saying, "Get your hands off me!" in exactly the tone my father would use when he was mad at me. I burst into tears, and it took 10 minutes for me to calm down. Took about a half hour to work though it, too. I never imagined that the guy had any thoughts about me putting hands on him; but boy-oh-boy did I respond as though my father had just yelled at me.
So please, OP, don't think that it has anything to do with what your twin thinks. It is only about what you respond to.
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BrianBizTexasDeclared SP • 4d
So it would be really helpful if you were headed to prison, right?
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revenimus8 • 2d
Its helpful in many life situations. Being able to maintain ones own composure in the face of hostility is a powerful skill. Use it in a boardroom if you have to. Use it in the bedroom too. Such is the nature of a life skill.
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BrianBizTexasDeclared SP • 1d
You learned that people who don't learn to badger others are weak.
You next big lesson will be taught by Jesus and He doesn't believe taunting God's creatures is a life skill.
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prikaz_daIndependent • 22h
The person doing the “badgering” is not the one doing the drill, you know. The person being “badgered” is doing the TR. The other person is a coach. If you thought the purpose of the drill was to learn to badger people, you misunderstood it.
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BrianBizTexasDeclared SP • 8h
If you were instructed to have sex with someone, would the purpose be for you to be sexually active?
Both the twins learn to badger by doing the drill. The proof is here in this video:
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prikaz_daIndependent • 4h
If you read HCOB 16 August 1971R, Training Drills Remodernized, the purpose of TR 0 BB is stated rather unequivocally:
PURPOSE: To train student to confront a preclear with auditing or with nothing. The whole idea is to get the student able to BE there comfortably in a position three feet in front of the preclear without being thrown off, distracted or reacting in any way to what the preclear says or does.
That is the only correct purpose. The student is not the one doing the talking. If the people in that video do it differently, or if the people you did it with do it differently, they're doing it wrong.
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• BrianBizTexasDeclared SP • 3h
He was convicted of fraud, unequivocally.
If I told you I wanted your candy, and the purpose to was to get you to share, what do you think the purpose of me asking for your candy would actually be?
0
• • prikaz_daIndependent • 3h
That is not a comparable situation because it requires an assumption. The purpose of the TR is written down in a document you're required to read before doing it, so there is no room for you to assume a different purpose. Anyone who does is doing the TR wrong.
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• • • BrianBizTexasDeclared SP • 3h
There is no reason to assume that I don't want to teach you to share.
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• • • •Continue Thread
vegan-setian • 4d
Or someone who risks facing an interrogation.
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BrianBizTexasDeclared SP • 4d
Or someone who wants to interrogate, which isn't very useful in interior decorating. I am not sure Scientology / Narconon is for me.
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vegan-setian • 4d
Be certain it isn't. If you have a drug issue, AA or secular alternatives would be better.
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Echo1883Mod, ex-HCO Staffer • 4d
It's kind of fascinating to me just how quickly he went from speaking out against what he perceived as bullying directed toward him to suddenly being hostile and insulting toward me :P
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vegan-setian • 3d
This guy is a disingenuous troll who I'm certain has been banned before, which is why he's preemptively hostile to you. He's also playing to a gay stereotype superficially.
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• Echo1883Mod, ex-HCO Staffer • 3d
Yup I'm even pretty sure I know who it is. Perhaps fascinating wasnt the right word. It's more of an amusing curiosity to watch someone become hostile toward me in record time. It's not exactly uncommon for posters here to become angry with me or begin to dislike me. And misquoting me to create strawmen to try and make me look bad is kind of an old trick at this point (especially for who I'm pretty sure is behind this account... lol)
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• • revenimus8 • 2d
Its okay, all you have to do is keep your TR's in, and the trolls go away. Eventually.
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BrianBizTexasDeclared SP • 4d
I don't want to end up like Echo, insulting everyone, thinking I have a new skill. If he put that on his resume, he would never get a job and would be stuck here typing until carpel tunnel sets in, which might be the case.
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vegan-setian • 3d
I remember you ;)
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• BrianBizTexasDeclared SP • 1d
What is my name?
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LickingAssIsRimming • 6d
I'm a little unclear, no pun intended, on the Scientology position with regards to gay people. It's my understanding they think that being gay is a mental illness which can be 'cured' which puts them in the exact same box as toothless fundamentalist mouth breathers.
I could be wrong, but I see no official word on the matter from the Church.
2
greduanRon's Org Grenchen • 5d
Here's as I understand it. I'm a Scientologist, though not of the Church variety.
I think somebody's who's gay or what have you are totally in their right and they're not sick for it.
But, because they basically cannot procreate (at least not without help of an external party, besides their partner), at least on the second dynamic B (children), they're a bit limited.
I might even think they're somewhat low tone on the second dynamic. That is not to say they are low tone over all. Only something is not "straight" (no pun intended, I mean as in aberrated) regarding that dynamic. At least as it is played (or setup to be played) here on earth.
Or they're simply not playing the second dynamic as it's played here on earth, they're playing another race's or galaxy's second dynamic, which is totally fair.
I hope the Scn. mumbo jumbo is not something that you don't understand. If you like I can put it in more layman terms.
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LickingAssIsRimming • 3d
I did some research on my own and found a much more aggressive stance on homosexuality within the church...
https://www.mikerindersblog.org/scientology-homophobia/
Scientology, and scientologists, have sought to change their image on the subject to appear to be “gay friendly.” They will try to explain that it is natural that Hubbard put gays into the 1.1 band as back in the 50’s they could not be “overtly” gay — they had to be “covert” and hide their identities, and thus they were “covert.” But it does not actually explain the entire concept of 1.1 which is covert HOSTILITY and ‘sexual perversion” – rape, child molesting and other things. Homosexuality was labeled a 1.1 trait not because they were hiding, but because they were “perverts” engaged in sex for other reasons than procreation. Nor does it explain why the statements have not been removed from the books like some of his other things (marijuana is safer than alcohol for instance).
As Mike Rinder notes, the book Handbook for Preclears is perhaps the only place where Hubbard specifically states homosexuality is about 1.1 on the Tone Scale. The book Science of Survival does not specifically state that homosexuals are 1.1 on the Tone Scale. SOS instead states "perverts" are 1.1 on the Tone Scale.
Don't get me wrong, it is clear that Hubbard considered homosexuals to be "perverts" and thus at 1.1 on the Tone Scale. As Mike Rinder also notes, in Dianetics, Book 1 in Scientology, Hubbard states:
The sexual pervert (and by this term dianetics, to be brief, includes any and all forms of deviation in Dynamic II such as homosexuality, lesbianism, sexual sadism, etc. and all down the catalogue of Ellis and Krafft-Ebing) is actually quite ill physically. Perversion as an illness has so many manifestations that it must be spread through the entire gamut of classes from (1) to (5) above.
I always recommend Mike Rinder's essay, Scientology Homophobia.
Why You Can't Be Gay In Scientology
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greduanRon's Org Grenchen • 3d
That's all right. I don't agree with that approach. :)
Thus I stated my opinion.
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LickingAssIsRimming • 3d
oh, I see. That's always interesting to me. Folks forming their own opinions on what is basically religious dogma....
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greduanRon's Org Grenchen • 3d
I find it interesting that you find it interesting, considering one of the first things Ron tells you is to evaluate for yourself what you find is true for yourself. ¯(ツ)/¯
4
LickingAssIsRimming • 3d
I don't usually state what I personally think about Scientology or Ron because I'm trying to keep things civil. I would encourage you to read up on where Ron got his 'ideas' from, before you base your entire life on them.
2
• greduanRon's Org Grenchen • 3d
That's all right. What you say or don't say is up to you.
And, I have heard some things about where he got them from. But I think that's irrelevant.
He could've gotten them from a druggie just as he was about to shoot himself, if the idea is good the idea is good. If the idea is applicable, the idea is applicable. If the idea works, the idea works.
But this is only my idea. Which I don't only apply to Scn., incidentally.
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BrianBizTexasDeclared SP • 4d
I heard they hate gays more than doctors.
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PretendedClickEx-Sea Org, Class IV • 1d
The bigger question - why would you Scientology if you’re gay?
1
BrianBizTexasDeclared SP • 1d
Why is Scientology a bad place for people who pretend to be gay?
1
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