HF 21 - P2P Vote Selling IS Better than Bot Delegation!

in minnowbooster •  26 days ago  (edited)



Hard fork 21 brings many changes intended to improve the Steem blockchain. One very relevant change is that curation rewards are increased from 25% to 50%.

This change has some important implications...


Wait, what are curation rewards again?

Those who have been active on Steem for a long time already know all about curation rewards, but new users may not.

Below each post on Steem, the expected payout is displayed, It changes with upvotes, downvotes (flags), and the STEEM price. But when the payout occurs after 7 days, the author doesn't receive 100% of the previously displayed amount.

Instead, 25% of it are distributed to the people who voted on the post. How much each individual voter receives depends on when they voted and how much they increased the payout.

Here's an example for what it looks like on Steempeak, one of the Steem interfaces. In addition to the payout in STU (STEEM and SBD), Steem Engine tokens are displayed here too.



If you vote on a post within a 15 minute window of it having been posted, you receive less curation rewards, the rewards are instead burned.


What changes with HF 21?

  • The split of author payout/curation reward changes from 75%/25% to 50%/50%, with the intention of increasing curation.

    When you vote on a high-quality post that receives a high payout, you earn more curation rewards than before. And because you receive a larger portion of the rewards if you vote before everyone else, it's beneficial if you actively look for good content and promote it.

  • The time frame in which you receive fewer curation rewards is reduced from 15 minutes to 5 minutes, allowing you to vote almost immediately after reading a post.


What does that mean for Vote Bots?

Most vote bots on Steem require you to delegate STEEM POWER to them, and in turn you receive a liquid payout from them. The problem with this system is, that you miss out on the curation rewards.

MinnowBooster offers (aside from directly delegating to the bot) the option to sell your vote. That way, you don't have to delegate STEEM POWER, and all curation rewards go directly to you, because the vote comes from your account, not @minnowbooster.

With HF 21, selling your vote makes more sense than delegating to a bot.


How do I sell my vote?

Selling your vote with MinnowBooster is easy and safe.

Simply go to minnowbooster.net and click on the "FEED THE HUNGRY MINNOWS!" button.



If you're already logged in, the screen pictured above will also show your Voting Power and idle STEEM POWER.

If you're not logged in, you will be prompted to log in via Steemconnect.



After clicking on the "FEED THE HUNGRY MINNOWS!" button, you will be redirected to your Vote Selling Stats.

If you haven't been selling your vote, it will look like this:



Click on "Settings" to enable vote selling.

You can choose to only sell to users on our Whitelist, minimizing the risk of having your vote sold to someone trying to abuse the system.

It's also possible to sell your vote for comment promotion, which means the user paying for this service will have their comments automatically upvoted a little bit each time, pushing it to the top of the comment section.

The last setting is to determine when you want your vote to be sold.

Don't want your voting power to drop below 80%? Only sell when it's above.



And that's it!

You can change your settings and disable Vote Selling at any time.

If you run into issues or see people that should be blacklisted from buying votes via MinnowBooster, don't hesitate to contact us on our Discord Server.



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Is the window really reduced to 5min? I thought it was 1 min?

As far as we are aware, it's 5 minutes. 1 minute was briefly proposed and accepted, but then discarded again because there were some theoretical issues.

Thank you!

Yip 5 mins, see my latest blog post I mention it there and someone asked me in comments there too.

Yep, it's already pretty good. You also get the occasional tribe curations

Yes good point, we forget about that side benefit! :)

Can you please answer my question below? I thought it was one minute. Did they change this again?

Yeah it was changed to 5 mins on the Github repo. Steemit inc cautioned about 1 min as there might be some outlier scenario that could be abused, they didn’t have time to explore the risk before HF so we all compromised on 5 min.

Thanks for the reply!

There are also some delegation bots that payout the curation reward.

Posted using Partiko Android

Sure but I don't think they will pay out the curation rewards from other tokens such as Palnet, Steemleo etc if the post has the relevant tags. By vote selling you earn it directly.

As far as I know, you don't get curation reward of those tokens if you don't have some. Since you are only delegating Steem this wouldn't make a difference.

Posted using Partiko Android

It sounds very cool and very interesting and excited to know how it works..!!

Posted using Partiko iOS

Hmm interesting!

Posted using Partiko iOS

We always try to provide all the relevant information :)

I already use the P2P voting, though I delegated most of my SP to some account lately so I don't think I'll benefit much from the new curation reward system.

Well, the remaining SP that you have will earn P2P curation voting rewards via MinnowBooster, if you delegated via DLease at a good APR rate that is also good and you didn't go wrong there either, both options are good, and combined together are great.

I'm aware of that but thanks for the reminder.

Well, the remaining SP that you have will earn P2P curation voting rewards via MinnowBooster

I delegated most of my SP to #steemace and they have good APR so I don't think I'm losing either way.

I did what this tutorial suggested and it says my idle steem power is 400 (roughly how much i have) and my voting power is 0%. I don't get why the voting power is listed as 0%...I have the sell my vote number set to 80%...but if my voting power is 0% then i'm getting nothing from this as far as i can see.

The post (I believe) is inaccurate.

When a vote is bought, it now bids for the 50% of the payout instead of (the old) 75% of the payout.

Since the beginning of the bid-bots the following marketrule is stil true:
input = output
1usd goes in -> 1usd comes out (the ratio is just different)

So not only does the buyer receives the same as before, the bot does (and thus the delegators should) also receive the same as before!

Since MB is not a bid bot, instead of the market regulating price via demand and supply, we employ some fancy math to make everything work.

input = output
1usd goes in -> 1usd comes out

In our case, we give a few percent profit, so more than 1usd comes out.

And with curation, actually way more comes out. What we calculate is basically how much goes to the buyer? So with 50% curation, if you pay 1 SBD we need to vote you for 2 STU so you get 1 SBD back (simplified).

This post mostly talkes about the changes as a seller but for the buyer not much will change. Buyers need to be aware that the flag pool allows for new mechanics in the game :)

Does that answer your question?

Since MB is not a bid bot

Sorry, didn't want to generalise MB to the rest!

In our case, we give a few percent profit, so more than 1usd comes out.

Yes, I know that, but it was +/- the same!

What we calculate is basically how much goes to the buyer? So with 50% curation, if you pay 1 SBD we need to vote you for 2 STU so you get 1 SBD back (simplified).

Same applies for the bot. The vote worth 2usd has 1usd curation reward and the buyer pays the other +/- 1usd!

Buyers need to be aware that the flag pool allows for new mechanics in the game :)

This is gona have an impact for sure (but isn't included in our reasoning above).

Same applies for the bot. The vote worth 2usd has 1usd curation reward and the buyer pays the other +/- 1usd!

Yes, this is how it has always worked and will continue to work. Just the percentage changes.

Oké, so if we can agree to that!...

Then this isn't true:

(Title)
HF 21 - P2P Vote Selling IS Better than Bot Delegation!

Unless the higher curationreward the MB-bot is gona recieve arn't going to the delegators!?

That is why we recommend that you do P2P vote selling. Curation rewards for P2P go to the voter, the delegation bot is just a helper and will make less profit.

Mmm, to bad.

I really hoped MB would nutralised the HF change in the math used.

So things wouldn't change for buyer/delegator/MB.

After HF21:
Buyer = gets the same
Delegator = gets less
MB = gets more

Doesn't sound right/fair does it?

Btw. I don't want to use the P2P system be cuase it doenst use all the Voting Power available. Thus wasting VP / ROI / chance to auto-upvote awesome content...

We are currently evaluating ways to make delegation worthwhile again, but we don't plan to do the whole powerdown into payout thing, as it complicates and drags out payments a lot.

If P2P does not use all the voting power you allow it to, then that is a bug and you can tell us so we will investigate. If you set it to keep your VP at say 90% then it will do that +- 2% or so. And if not, come to us and we investigate/fix.

Update: we decided to not take our 15% share if we receive the curation rewards. That way delegators get the consistent payments and we average out on the long term curation rewards, which would fluctuate more and are a bigger risk.

With that in mind, delegating to @minnowbooster should with HF21 be very profitable :)

Hi @reggaemuffin do the fancy maths now also take in account the non linearity of the payout before 20 Steem?

Posted using Partiko Android

No, we intentionally left this to the buyer. We don't know what happens before/after our vote so we don't want to incentivise votes on empty content that then get fluffed by a second bot.

We treat it as a linear curve and if you are at the bottom of the curve then our vote will be less valuable. But once it reaches the top that vote will pay out as intended.

Ok i like that, so the people will use it less on posts that no one else voted before, so people have higher chance to become curation reward and it is used less on shit posts.

Posted using Partiko Android

Exactly, that was one of the things we wanted to incentivise :)

I think we at least need a disclaimer though, saying the stated amount isn't guaranteed unless the post if above the threshold.

However if you sell votes with us, your account essentially becomes its own bot and you earn from the curation in addition to the fee the customer paid for your vote.

We see soon whats go happen :) ... but lot new come this I know :)

We are also looking forward to the changes HF21 brings, and will work towards keeping user experience on our services as pleasant as it always was!

I don’t buy votes and never knew you could sell votes.. interesting

Posted using Partiko iOS

Yeah u can sell votes, nice to do if your account is sitting idle over the weekend or on holiday.

Yes that is the smartest move to make

Posted using Partiko Android

Not only can you sell votes, you can also lease out your SP via DLease, which can give a much higher APR than delegating to most bid bots! There are many ways to grow your investment efficiently.

Will you let current bot prices stable ? Meaning you will keep the Steem-sbd price to upvote a post for the previous same upvote ?
As a vote-seller I would like to understand this part.

Posted using Partiko iOS

As a vote seller after the hard fork, you will have to vote with more power to produce the same amount of vote needed, but because you earn more curation, that evens out. In the ideal case, you earn less liquid but more in curation. Our revenue calculator is already updated in that regard and we are looking forward to seeing the data produced in the coming days.

If you have any questions about it, feel free to contact us any time 😊

Hmmm... why are my Vote selling payouts so low? I have 5,000 Steem Power and keep my Voting Power close to 100% but only earn about .02 SBD per day ? Am I doing something wrong ? Help ?

Hi can I ask you to give me a screenshot of your vote selling settings and threshold, I can advise further. You can also contact my on Discord DM - thecryptodrive#8144

Not sure what I’m doing wrong.... I used to make 2-3 SBD per day ?

313BDF64-C523-42D5-83B5-B97648995840.jpeg

When was the last time you made 2-3 SBD per day? Because right now people aren't really buying votes as of the 27 August because of Hard Fork 21.

A while ago... maybe 2 weeks ago

Ok.... should I delegate instead ?

Ok... one sec.

I noticed several days my Steem Power was stuck at 100% and no voting was going on so I started voting manually again....

I can suggest the following, drop your vote threshold to 90% and disable whitelist only voting so you allow more people to be able to use your vote.

If still low demand we have another product https://dlease.io where you can delegate your SP in a P2P fashion to other users, there are some leases for as much as 22% per annum and will give stable daily returns.

Vote bots may not have that much demand while we are transitioning to the new HF, there is going to be another HF 22 in 14 hours to fix some bugs so demand is likely to be low until the chain stabilises and people know they won't lose money from buying votes.

Ok... great ideas. I will make the suggested changes and see how it goes. I am going to do a little more manual voting to see how I do Voting whales at the 5 minute mark.

Ok cool let me know how you go.

Thanks for all your help. It’s the only way I earn much on Steemit anymore.

Sent discord request...

AEA79ACA-CB66-42DE-B2A3-B936ABEF4743.jpeg

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Nice, i am waiting for it...

Only a few hours left! If you want, you can already switch on the vote selling to be ready once the fork is complete.