Kenneth R Shoulders 2010 interview with John Hutchinson - key point transcript

The late Kenneth R. Shoulders was a genius technologist responsible in part for technology many of us use today.

In what may be his last recorded encounter with his friend, the matter masher John Hutchinson, he reveals juicy details about what he clearly considered as some of the best work in his life. He also gives great insight to researchers at the frontiers of science.

@11m51s

“Everything is set up to pull you down”
“you spend more time promoting - just to get a few bucks”
“academia says you have to have an instrument that is qualified to produce results”
“you have to build all your own instruments for frontier science… you can’t buy anything of value”

@15m17s

“anyone who is going to do different stuff - new stuff - have to separate themselves from the community of bankers, in science, they will not pay forward, they always think backwards”

@25m2s - On Transmutations

KS “I don’t have to change any names on transmutation, it is just flat out transmutation, with the funny exception, there are never any hot species…”

“hot species?”

KS “I never create any radioactive species..”

“ok”

KS “where as transmutation is normally thought of as a hot species, as you would tend to make hot ones more often than you would, er, neutral species - not hot. But er, isotopically is the only way we can speak when we talk transmutation.”

@27m55s - What are charge clusters

KS “See and EVO is a cluster it’s a way of thinking of it, of electrons, and you know, in physics as well, you can get; cooper pairs, Muons (207 × electron), Tauons (3477.48 × electron)… they are all just clusters of electrons of a larger size - but heck, they rarely go above 100s and I see them into the billions worth - no trouble at all. So I am working with a WAY upscale class of guys.

Their physically large enough to see but they are in the diameter of a hair”

…

“I have seen a 5 and 20 um one and my present job is to get them bigger and bigger and bigger”

“U have been able to use these little biddy machines I make to get them up to 100um so far.”

KS “they are stable unless I intentionally blow them up”

@31m33s - Where do you find them?

“They can be just about anywhere, it is handy for me because I can analyse them in a vacuum - they can exist in a solid, literally in some of John’s [John Hutchinson] work, in the middle of the middle I’ve seen a paper that showed things like that and many other cold fusion guys. I’ve created them and kept them overnight and when I come in next morning they blow to smithereens - but I think they did some wrong things to make them do those things.”

“They are extremely ubiquitous things, you can shuffle across this road and you will have created them those marks - little marks on that door knob are the witness marks - they are just everywhere, you get out of your car, rub across your seat and snap… you just made one.

@33m25s - EVOs in relation to John Hutchinson's observations

JH “Ken studied some of the earlier work…”

“From your analysis of Johns metals, that he had these exotic EVOs operating inside of those transmitted metals.”

KS “I’ll back up a little further.. Yes I do think they are a major cause of everything he has done, propulsion, transmutation - you name it - they stem from this effect. Now, I strictly shied away from using large machines as John makes, Tesla like coil like things, erm, because I couldn’t figure out what was going on with the base process. There is a big gap in my ability to go from where John’s machine is to base knowledge that I have now, so I had to use different machines and techniques and that made us draw apart. if I had the guts enough, I might have jumped on a John-like machine, home made or otherwise - kept modifying it and kept modifying it until I got a better understanding of what went on - but instead of doing that I just skipped right on into the basic stuff from where I discovered it. And, erm, started building up - using what you might call the bottom up technique and he was working with the top down method and I had, just due to my background - I had no ability to do that, I didn’t feel like I had - so I built up from the bottom.

It puts me in a class of screw-ball scientists - If I had done it - erm - from the top down I’d be called a garage crank or something like that… just a screwball now.”

“would you prefer to be a Crank or a Screwball?”

JH “I don’t care what they call me, I love the history of the Tesla Tech - the technology just to replicate it - to play with it”

Hatherwaite, Puthoff

@37m13s - Losing your experimental 'spirit'

“you don’t get ‘told’ what to do, you get leaned on, so gently that finally your off-course - you will do it to yourself - to yourself, whenever I work for anybody else, I try to sense ‘what are their needs’ and conform.. to a degree - only keeping a portion for yourself - as yourself - … the conforming… …it is a killer to new science. Because nobody wants to take a risk”
“I will be better off, the world will be better off, if I operate independently”

@41m29s - On the Cold Fusion community

"I can take the top list of everybody that I know of in cold fusion… where its at… that is supposed to be a forward moving field… it’s dead… dead in the water… they really are bad… take a list of the top guys in that business, or ex-business - I can name guys like Storms, McKubre, Miley - all those and everybody of their ilk - that I know well - that I have associated with closely - and when I look at what they do - I have very little admiration for it - I guess I put storms at the top of the list - those that seemingly survived all the pitfalls and perils of being at a high echelon in the field - and that’s about it on that bunch…"
“…Sono fusion is just charge separation when the bubble is formed and it creates EVOs”
"SPAWAR has EVOs and they don’t know they have them"

@45m2s - On publishing in journals

“It won’t get published in a journal, in the so-called peer reviewed journals - who are my peers? … you tell me where ah, I can find a peer - that’s what you’re asking for - who is my peer or who I consider peers that could critique what I am doing - well there are some people that can - but they maybe even shouldn’t because it is BAD FOR YOUR REPUTATION and it’s er, not rewarding - you can’t get a job in the field because there’s no field and you know, nothing good about it.”
“you have to get used to people miss-quoting you by miles”

@51m50s - The creative mind state

“I can stay on the edge of the region between sleep and awakeness and do the best job I can do. That’s when it really gets me some mileage. But the trouble is, if you loose your training a little bit, you go to sleep too much - and if you stay fully conscious, you are not going to get anywhere. I get up 5 times a night and it is largely because I like breaking the sleep routine - because every time I get to that boundary, I get a little bit and I hang on to it and I keep on moving that way. I like this form of subliminal thinking - it is stupid, because I don’t think until I’m back awake and then it is not thinking too much, it is kind of like just jotting down what you just heard.”
…
“I’ve got to work quick in that narrow zone”

@54m28s - Progressive transmutation

KS “It [EVOs] penetrates metal, it gets nasty mad at some point maybe, at which point it explodes, it dishevels I should say, it may also create a very high pressure, but it certainly dishevels and parts come out in various ways… some are highly altered and transmutations and some you can say, well, were not altered at all - but you don’t know whether it was altered into something else and then re-transmuted back - it’s real hard to tell - cause the efficiency of the transmutation is very high and so when you start running some experiments which are on the list, on the net of these things and a little transmutation vial that I purposely don’t let any new material in - it’s all solids and and it’s all pure and it’s doing a mass analysis - a spectrometry analysis about every 5 seconds you pusshhhh, run it, look at it, pusshhhh and look at again and well, the first burst which lasts seconds you look at you see a few characteristic lines of the first powders or the material that you put in and you think well that’s good, but then there is little strange lines beginning to show up… hit it again… more strange lines… hit it again… more strange lines… pretty soon you have transmuted a transmuted a transmuted product and pretty soon the whole base line of the spectrometer run is filled with … stuff whereas before there had only been a few primary items put in there. The transmutation is very obvious in that sort of thing And you can’t blame it on external contamination… there is just no way… you can’t blame it on so many things you usually do say is the cause… but er… just transmutation…”
“What has always fascinated you about Ken.?”

JH “I like the wake Ken is honest, the way Ken talks and I like his science… so… at least a piece of these things I kind of understand that. It is a very sensitive area and”

KS “There are few people, VERY FEW people that interface with the things that we play with, it’s very hard to get a conversation going in an average group… …you know, you go into a bar - don’t expect to get an audience…”

KS “In this business of ‘who am I going to talk to’ you have to ask yourself, very selfishly, ‘what am I going to get out of this?’ there is not much you can expect”

“What do you want to get out of it?”

KS “Help”

“What?”

KS “Move the field, my next … I need a bike - give me a boost…”

“What do you need for a boost?”
… …

@59m27s - the lone wolf

KS “The question is really poised around what person you need to help you get there. And I guess I am finding, more and more, there aren’t any - you get there by yourself or you don’t get there”
JH “I agree with that too”
KS “I hate that because in some ways its so counter social, because it is absolutely criminal talk on the most [part]”

@1h28s - The futility of one man science

“What good is it if it is only something that you worked on and you want to advance this, for what reason do you want to advance it?”

KS “Well, that is a good question that for many many years I have been on the wrong side of and I’ll try for your purposes only to straighten it out… I used to hate to say ‘I’m for advancing for social benefit, for the good of mankind’ “
“who you can’t talk to about this”

KS “well I can’t ta...- but I have to advance them or I don’t have any goal to reach - I have to include mankind as my beneficiary - that’s all there is… I can impart a certain amount, a small amount to my family, but it is very small…”

JH “I just found myself all alone in this…. … then a scientist came along and wanted to…”
… …
“What if it is all just fun for Ken?”

KS “I have a certain economic necessity that’s called .. it’s not to make money, it’s the economics of life. It’s the distribution of energies of things. And er, I don’t allow play I say - of course I do… but I don’t want to admit it. WE DON’T PLAY - WE’RE WORKING! - so it has to be cemented in that way or otherwise you are just liable to just stop and play and how can you measure that?”
… …
KS “I don’t admit the play part - it is the wrong word, there has to be something else in there. There must be somehow a reward, wrapped up with play”

“Why?”

KS “Well, you wouldn’t play if there wasn’t some reward in it - it’s gotta work that way…”

“Why?”

KS “I can’t say why…”

About other scientists…

“you can’t have any of the other scientists who are in their boxes understand you …”

KS “well they won’t and they shouldn’t”

“But then I ask you, why do you put yourself in these boxes of plays and reward…”

KS “Well I have no choice, If I really let myself loose totally - I would probably start looking into how DOES this stuff couple into religion - I see a little hook there, and how DOES this stuff couple into er, bio excretia or whatever - you know there are a lot of biological things going on, that I see some overlaps here”

NOTE:He says that thinking about all the connections, raises hell with efficiency … essentially if he does not limit his work to “this that and the other” he will not get there [achieve anything]. He says he can’t take restriction off otherwise he gets scattered, “I know what diffusion looks like - I hate it” Going in all directions when you could have “Focused it” just a little bit. Step by step

What would you like to say if you were to ‘leave right now’?
KS “There is always someone around that wants to collect what you got”

Kenneth Radford Shoulders (1927 – June 7, 2013)