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RE: Libertarianism and Mining GORP (Trail Mix) [about to hit 9k follower!!!]

in #life7 years ago (edited)

Who gets to determine how the resources are allocated? This is the centuries old question. Who owns the earth? Who owns the right to resources? Not can we, but should we mine finite resources at the risk of endangering future generations?

Depending on what culture you belong to, the answer varies. Native American tradition teaches that we should honor the earth for providing us with the resources to sustain life. They valued not taking more than was needed to survive. This is a sound ecological perspective.

Western culture focuses on resources as something to be exploited in order to boost the economy and prosperity of nations. However we have gone beyond national support into personal wealth. Exploiting resources for personal gain at the expense of not only other citizens, but the infrastructure of the earth itself is greedy and foolish.

Environmental stability and sustainability should be of prime importance to all citizens on a planet, because what happens on one side of the planet affects people elsewhere.

History is peppered with examples of what happens when we try to take too much from the land. Clear-cutting leads to desertification and lack of biodiversity. Mining increases erosion, sinkholes, pollution of groundwater. While taking these resources allows us to build more and become a superior culture, we do it at a risk.

The way it is done is also contentious. Mining resources is seldom done for the whole community. Mostly it is done for profit, by a few industrious or possibly selfish persons who wish to profit. Plus, without regulation by a benevolent government, mining resources leads to pollution and degradation with sometimes severe injury or harm done to others.

There are ethical several levels here. First, is it right for the few to profit on a resource that does not belong to them? Is it right for these people to then sell the resource to us at a profit? (think bottled water folks). Is it right for a nation to own the land, and if so should they be allowed to mine resources at a profit, or lease the rights to others without accounting for the true cost of a resource to future generations?

My opinion is that no one should have the right to deplete or endanger a resource beyond what is sustainable.

Getting back to the question of the underage miner. Evidently she was mining a finite resource shared by a larger crowd for personal profit. Granted, the other people might not have wanted this resource, but she did not attempt to ask before liberating. Was she harming anyone? Doubtful. Those M& Ms have toxic shit in them- colorings and flavorings, sugar, etc. So she might have been saving people from themselves. But she could also have been pissing off others who wanted the resource. She did not try to hoard and sell however. Brownie point for that.

Summation: Ethically, she should have considered others. However, it is doubtful if she was doing any real injury to anyone but herself.

Note: mining gorp does not equate with mining a true finite resource. more M&Ms can be bought at the store and are easily obtained. Their true value is negligible and does not directly impact the well being of others on a global scale.

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Your arguments are quite sound, in almost their entirety.

"... benevolent government..."

I don't believe in bogeymen, Sasquatch, or benevolent government.

My experience - not my theorizing - has shown me that government is typically utterly corrupt, and generally malicious, usually in order to financially benefit government servants.

Thanks!

yep, the benevolent govt was just that... a theory. but it is christmas, miracles could happen :)

That would indeed, be a Merry Christmas!

=D

And that is way the check And balances we have in true democratic systems still Works. Lot better than Free for all libertarian system.

"...the checks and balances we have in true democratic systems still Works."

That is utter and complete fantasy. Name one example.

In every example of true democratic systems I have been told of, I see that they are not truly democratic, and are corrupt. Further, the checks and balances are, also. Not one of them actually works as they were claimed to by their founders.

From the village I was raised in to the big cities I have lived in, I have never seen one exception to this.

I was talking in theory, forgot to add that.

But yeah, in the real world things aren't pretty, because human greed always take a part on the equation.

But comparing the true democratic system with the libertarian ideas, so far, i still choose the democracy system.

While it is still flawed, the power is more dilluted between more people, and can change hands fastest than it seems to me in a full libertarian state.

In democracy, smaller parties still have voice, and can still pass bills that benefits a minority.

Also, the people and the press can apply some influence if it gets big enough, because there is legal mechanisms to change the ones in power.

What i can see from libertarian way, these legal mechanisms wouldnt exist, so i dont see a feasible way for the small people to fight the big ones.

The big ones have the possibility to amass a huge amount of power, and there is nothing stoping them to do so.

I still want to know a better way, but so far, haven't found it yet.

"What i can see from libertarian way, these legal mechanisms wouldnt exist..."

You aren't well versed in LIberty, I see. Various mechanisms are proposed by a myriad of authors to subject corrupting influence and oppression to checks. Neither the press nor the people themselves have ever been supposed by even one libertarian I am familiar with to be eliminated.

I am new to the libertarian ideas, and i always question something i want to understand better. And i find the libertarian ideas pretty interesting, but i am not yet convinced.

I learned that because when i was young, i really liked the idea of communism, wich in theory is a perfect egalitarian system, but as i started to acquire more knowledge i started to see the holes in it, especially because human nature is never factored on most of the theories.

So far, i have been presented that only two rules would apply (right to property and no physical harm allowed), and they seem paradoxical, a lot of issues come from having these rules that could create the exact opposite of a free market/state.

But could you rephrase the last sentence? i didnt understand it...

I was responding to your statement here:

"the people and the press can apply some influence if it gets big enough, because there is legal mechanisms to change the ones in power."

"What i can see from libertarian way, these legal mechanisms wouldnt exist, so i dont see a feasible way for the small people to fight the big ones."

I said that neither the press nor the people wouldn't be part of any libertarian proposal I am familiar with.

Hope that helps =)

Also, could you recommend me some authors and books?

I am not widely lettered, but can recomment Lysander Spooner, Fredric Bastiat, John Locke, and there are many, many more.

@ekklesagora has an extensive knowledge and familiarity with literature, and even a brief visit to his blog with probably overwhelm you with authors and works that can better provide you with substantive knowledge than can I.

Be well, and Merry Christmas!

Ty. Merry Christmas to you too.

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