RE: You're NOT Going To Like This Short Post...
Ok, I just discovered your posts that I somehow missed - so this post was a good idea.
Loved the one on riding waves in eternity. https://steemit.com/philosophy/@creatr/eternity-a-mind-numbingly-powerful-perspective
You did say there is no Hell in the comments, so this is in the spirit of "saying something you are not going to like". In Jesus' own words:
Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where" 'the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
Revelation 14:9
And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand, he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
Hey, @stan - THANK YOU for "checking in" here! I really appreciate your comment.
Thanks for your encouraging response to Eternity: A Mind-Numbingly Powerful Perspective, I'm really glad that you enjoyed that!
So, I'm happy to enter into a dialog about the nature of hell with you... but for the moment, I'll just mention that what I've learned from the scriptures is that hell is less a "place" and more a "presence" - as your quote from Revelation shows - something I hope to write some articles about in the future. I hope you'll continue to follow and offer feedback as you see fit... Thanks again for weighing in! :)
Correct. Since there is no time (as we know it) in eternity and you just "are" - a mere presence in Hell can seem like an eternity. :)
Hi again Stan,
I've just spent some time checking out your blog and "getting to know you" a little better. Liking what I see so far enough to follow you, appreciating your calm and reasonable approach to interacting with others. :) Looking forward to more reading and interaction.
Regarding your immediate comment, you mistook the "presence" I was referring to in a previous comment. Perhaps I should have said "Presence" as it is the Presence of the Lamb that I had in mind. As scripture says, quoted in Hebrews 12:29:
This is seen, perhaps most vividly, in II Thessalonians chapter one.
NOTE: CONSUMING fire saith the scriptures... Meditate on that. ;)
I'm going to take kind of a "shortcut" here by referring you the work of another on the topic of "Hell." That other is my esteemed friend and brother, who is known in cyberspace as "Brother Bird." I hope you'll enjoy his entertaining and thought provoking verse at that link. And I hope to "entertain" the subject at greater length myself in some future articles.
Thanks again for interacting! I'm "running out" again, but hope to respond to your other questions later... ;)
PS I don't at all mean to leave the impression that I take the topic of hell in any way "lightly" - it is a very serious prospect, one that every living soul ought to (for their own sake) face squarely and consider very soberly.
Imagine that instead of enjoying one of many waves over and over again in eternity your are consumed by one of many flames over and over again. Whatever you expect eternal rewards to be like for your immortal soul has its parallel eternal punishments.
For me, being cut off from God for all eternity knowing what I could have enjoyed with Him is far worse, so perhaps the worm and fire metaphors are just warnings expressed in terms we can understand. Like telling a child not to eat those never-wake-up berries.
This is a great discussion - much appreciated!
I agree that all the verses you point out are also true.
So we need to seek an understanding that agrees with every single verse you and I have both identified. If we leave one the other halves out, we will reach the wrong conclusions.
One I forgot was, "Cast him into the outer darkness where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. How long will they wail and gnash before they fade to black?
So we have "undying-worm-eaten", "smoke-rising-forever", and "outer darkness wailing" metaphors for describing what is meant by "eternal death" and "perishing" and "destruction".
The only interpretation I can think of that applies to all of the above seem to be talking about eternally destroying processes not end states.
Choosing the "simple lights out" interpretation would not fit what the following verses describe.
“They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thessalonians 1:9).
“If anyone worships the beast . . . he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever” (Revelation 14:9–11).
One would not think that simple end of existence would be described this way.
Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' ..."Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Hi again, Stan,
I was intrigued to learn that you are an engineer... ;)
Let me take another moment to specifically address the two verses you've cited here, and especially the parts you've highlighted.
In Mark 9:43, Jesus' entire point is that hell's agents of destruction - i.e. the fire and the worm are (unlike their analogs in the town dump) utterly effective. They complete their work of destruction. When they are done, nothing is left.
Regarding Revelation 14:9 - Revelation is, by it's own testimony, a book of symbolism. I understand that there are some believers who insist on seeing it as literal, but that is an extremely hard case to make when the book itself says things like "A equals X" and "B equals Y", describing a significant number of its own symbols.
IMHO, the symbolism of "the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever" hails back to imagery from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. The assertion that "there will be no rest" is an allusion to the fact that the condemned will never enter into God's eternal rest.
This is all just the tip of the iceberg... my review of all of scripture informs me that the preponderance of biblical evidence is that unregenerate man is in the end punished in just measure for his own sin and ultimately destroyed.