RE: Is there more to life than this? Join the Alpha Course for a share of the SBD from this series of posts
Well, for starters, the attitude of your last two comments haven’t been tolerant at all. You’ve called me judgmental and ignorant*, without apologising for your own judgmental attitude. I look forward to your contribution to the discussion throughout the series if you can do so in a more respectful way.
To reply to your comment about wars waged in the name of Christianity and child trafficking and sexual rape, obviously this is horrible, disgusting, and inexcusable! But just because these people and religious organisations call themselves Christians, it doesn’t mean at all that what they are doing aligns to Christians’ beliefs and values. Jesus’ teachings and example is at the core of Christianity, and my faith rests on what he has done and taught. People and groups throughout history have used the name of Jesus and the façade of Christianity to mask their own agendas and evil acts, but that doesn’t mean what they did represents what Jesus intended for us.
In the same way, if I said I’m a member of your group, the Garden of Eden, and started going around doing evil things, does that mean you or the values of your group are evil? The fact that the Garden of Eden is only a small group of people reduces the likelihood of this happening, but there are more than a billion people in the world who call themselves Christians, or one form of it. Out of a billion people, obviously there are going to be many of them who are insincere. In addition, many powerful religious organizations such as the Catholic Church have wondered away from what Jesus’ intended for the church because they have politics and self-agenda all mixed into the system already, and I too disapprove of many of their practices.
Finally, I just want to say that you have only pointed out one side of the story. It’s true that these evil acts done in the name of Christianity are inexcusable, just as many mass murders have been done in the name of Atheism by Mao and Stalin etc. are inexcusable. But at the same time, a huge number of the world’s hospitals, universities, schools, orphanages and charities and been established by Christians and Christian organizations too.
I welcome your contribution to this discussion.
I agree with your response for the most part and appreciate it.
I am only testing and challenging you and for the most part I feel you have "passed". You have kept your cool pretty well.
Though I am not judging nor do I need to apologize for stating facts. I am sure you don't like the points I bring up as almost no one does. That however does not mean I am judging. I am simply observing and communicating. I believe you have the right to believe or say whatever you want regardless of if I agree. So yes I am actually being very tolerant.
What I would like to contribute to this discussion is the difference of living by labels vs ideals.
I see you have investigated a little bit about me and who I am as you reference "The Garden of Eden" however I have not ever nor will I ever go around trying to convert people to The Garden of Eden.
I live by ideals not labels. I hope to inspire people to live in love, peace, respect, honesty, responsibility and also hopefully sustainability.
I don't need anyone to call them self an Edenite or a follower of Quinn or any such thing.
The reason why Christianity is such a destructive reality is not because of the ideals. The ideals are actually what is great about it. Yet the ideals get lost in all the labeling, acting, converting of Christianity.
If people actually cared about the ideals instead of the label then people wouldn't refer to the self as christians. They would simply be beings living by ideals.
The labels separate us not bring us together as you can so obviously see from our conversation already.
If your post would have been lets focus on and inspire love I doubt you would get ANY backlash yet when you say lets convert people to christians you are going to get LOTS of backlash.
Focus on the ideals let go of the labels.
Blessings~*~
Thanks for taking the time to contribute to the discussion.
Just wanted to make clear that my reference to your judgmental attitude wasn’t in relation to your points about the evil done throughout history in the name of Christianity, which you have every right to point out and condemn. Rather it was on the assertion you made in your first comment labelling me as ”Trying to pretend to be holy and benevolent while actually being judgmental and ignorant”.
Now, on to the point you raised about labels VS ideals, which is a good point that I mostly agree with.
I agree that labels can cause divisions and ideals is what we should live by. Christianity as a label is something I’m actually quite uncomfortable with, because there are so many assumptions associated with it in western culture. But you need to understand that labels aren’t always initiated by people on the inside, but often by people on the outside. This was exactly what happened with Christianity. The term Christians, or little Christs were given by those on the outside as a derogatory term for them. The early Christians referred to themselves as ’followers of the way’ which I like better. It’s difficult to avoid labels, because people like to group and label people, especially those they aren’t familiar with. Just as you can’t stop people referring to those who are part of the Garden of Eden as Edenites or whatever they want to refer to you guys as.
I agree ideals and values are important, but more so relationships and examples of those ideals. If you can consistently role-model and live out the ideals you mentioned, then I agree you are doing a good job. But the problem is that you like anyone else are imperfect and you are blind to many of your own flaws, and won’t be able to always live out these ideals. So what I believe and have experienced is that only Jesus who is God and perfect is able to be the perfect role-model by what he said and did. And Christianity or whatever you want to refer to it as, is all about helping people to come into a relationship with the resurrected Jesus, because he is the perfect example and only he can empower us to really live out these ideals. I never try to convert nor do I have the power to convert anyone or have any incentive to convert. I’m only communicating what I believe and trying to introduce people to Jesus, just as I would if I met someone else as awesome as Jesus, because I have experience how Jesus has transformed me into a better person.
Bless you too mate.
I appreciate your civil rebuttals. It is a sign of intelligence and good character.
I am glad you acknowledge how important ideals are but I still feel that instead of talking about christianity or jesus it is a lot more practical this day in age to focus on the ideals. Anyone who has not met Jesus is going to be skeptical at a minimum and is not relevant to their lifes.
It is easy to share the ideals and examples of Jesus without having to be all cultish. I get judged as being a cult leader quite regularly. That is fine. I am happy to provide them an outlet and to forgive them for their mistakes.
In truth Christianity is infinitely more cultish than The Garden of Eden is.
I chose the name Garden of Eden not because it is Christian but because it embodies the ideals of a "perfect" world.
I know that I am NOT perfect and have not once claimed it to be so. In fact I quite regularly say so on radio shows, interviews as well as in private conversations. Yet because I am aware of and committed to IDEALS, every time I waver from them I have the ideals to remind me and bring me back.
This is the benefit that Christianity and Jesus can have for people. I am well aware of that. However the labeling and quite frankly the average christian has actually lost the ideals and is cought up in an idea of just calling one self a christian being superior. It is also making people susceptible to trusting the church or pastors just because they are ORDAINED and BACKED by the CHURCH. Then behind the scenes they are raping children and being treated as holly....
ON the other hand you also have people who automatically judge christians and associate them with all the ignorant and lost ones.
So in both circumstances it is not helpful.
This is why focusing on ideals is far more helpful to the success of actually inspiring a more loving and responsible world.
∞§∞Eternal Blessings∞§∞
That's great points you make. I will try to focus more on ideals in the future.
It must be difficult for you wanting to initiate change and being labeled or judged by some as a cult leader.
Yes I'm aware and saddened by the fact that many Christians just call themselves Christians and act more supperior without following the example or holding to the teachings of Jesus. So I guess this series is also an opportunity to help us discuss what really following Jesus and his ideals is all about.
Thanks again for your contribution to the discussion. And I welcome further dialogue with you
Thank you for handling my test so well. While we obviously disagree on a few things I can tell you are an honest and loving being. I can see you are trying to help people in the way that you feel is most helpful.
I am grateful you have had a civil discussion with me on a very complicated topic and I hope that others will read it and get something out of it. I also hope that it will help you reach and inspire more people.
Blessings~*~