I know God always existing is a hurdle to many, God exists outside of space and time tho so would not be bound by beginning and endings.. as science also states all the time tho just because something can't be explained at the moment doesn't mean it won't be in the future..
Hi, sorry just got to your comment now. That's a very good question you raise and it's difficult for us to conceive of anything that has always existed.
Your question Where did the Creator come from? or Who created the Creator? is a very common question and assumes that there must be a point that the Creator didn't exist. Along the same lines, I can ask you how did the universe first come to be? Did it always exist?
Thanks for taking the time to contribute to this discussion.
Thanks for your honesty mate.
Yes, that is logical. If one thing has a creator, then everything should and does have a Creator. In fact the latest scientific discoveries support the fact that the universe had a beginning.
To the human logic, it is difficult to conceive of how someone/something has always existed, and that's something I've struggled with when I first explored Christianity and the Bible. But when you think about it, something that seems to defy logic and is difficult to grasp is actually good support for the truth of it's claims, because it makes it more likely that people didn't come up with the concepts through their own understanding. There are many other similar concepts in the Bible that seem to defy logic.
Thanks again for responding and your involvement in the discussion is much appreciated.
Interesting question. I grew up Southern Baptist, never really sat well with me. Never the less, this question was answered to me through one of the Pastors in my my life at some point. I always thought about it before I had the answer given to me and thought in a human way that there must be a realm of these beings. Man's version of a god must be one of these beings and had to have had a mother and father etc. I mean, how else would he/she/ it come to be? The answer I received way back in the day was before man's version of a god there was nothing. Just the darkest darkness. Imagine on a very dark night with all the lights off in your house going into your closet and shutting the door. The darkness you see so dark that you can't see your hand in front of your face. That's what I was told there was. Out of this darkness man's version of a god created himself is what was told to me. ?. So here I am imagining, since we are created in his/her/its image this man like figure floating in a laying position in this vast never ending darkness all by his lonesome before he created anything but himself.........
Thanks for contributing to the conversation. That's an interesting answer your pastor gave. Not sure where he/she got that from. It's certainly not what I believe, and certainly not what the Bible reveals about the nature of God. But thanks for joining in the discussion, and hope you will be able to join us throughout the rest of the series.
Hello there and you are welcome. Yeah, interesting and different. I'm not sure how this person came up with god creating himself out of nothing either but they seemed to believe it. I do intend on joining in and will do my best to play along. This should be one of the more interesting series of posts I've come across for sure. Thanks for the invite.
All are very interesting questions. Many thanks for those who asked, answered or discussed.
I am from a Muslim background. I stopped believing in Islam or the Muslim's God (or any God for that matter) sometime ago. Now I have my own version of God if you wish or spirituality which is more following the Taoism wisdom.
If you have read the Tao te Ching, the original philosopher explains God or the Tao (meaning the way) as something that can not be told or named because if it is, it will not be the real Tao. very philosophical but, personally, I find it interesting and inspiring.
In a nutshell, I personally believe that:
1- "God" is the absolute intelligent energy that forms this whole universe and whats in it. It existed before anything and it will exist after everything. It doesn't has a specific form or a specific location. It was not created because it was just there and it created this world with all the mysteries it contains.
2- This "God. a.k.a the universe or the force" gave absolute free will to humans, hence, it will not interfere in anything unless it is asked.
3- Whatever happens to humans from old times to now in the form of punishment was not the doing of this force (although made to be by humans in the old time and now in order to control the naive masses). Anything bad that happens in the world is the results of the collective negative energy of the majority of people, coming back to them. This is one of the laws of the universe. a.k.a Karma, what goes around comes around, every action has an opposite reaction similar in magnitude. Humans greed and need for power are responsible for the wars, the famine and the earth losing its natural balance, hence natural disasters.
4- I believe that hell and heaven are just a description of how we live on earth (peaceful and loving or not) and what we do (Good and helpful or not).
5- This energy is loving and wants the best for us, but since it gave us free will, it will not interfere to show us what is best, unless we ask for its help and guidance. Only then, we will get signs to lead us to the best path. These signs could be anything from other humans to intuition or gut feelings.
6- If we don't ask for help or we fail to live our life in peace and harmony, we will be given many chances to correct our wrong doings through multiple lives (hence, eternity of hell and heaven from a human point of view). But in actuality, time and eternity concepts do not exist for "God"
7- However, our souls that exist as humans XYZ at this time, will come back as humans EFG and forget the majority of XYZ's lives event, except the things that needs to be corrected, which will appear as recurrent challenges until the problem is solved and the loop gets broken.
8- The judgment day, is possibly the time that the person dies and becomes a soul or energy. They will be told what they did wrong before being sent back to correct their path.
9- The ultimate reason of creation is to discover ourselves that we are part of this loving energy and to love ourselves and each other as we are all part of one thing.
10- Hence, "God" will never tell humans, who are part of it to kill each other because they don't agree or they look different or all the B.S that is going on in all the religious book. It's all man-made.
There are so many things to discuss and discover. It is something we can never be sure of, neither we can prove or disprove. At the end, it is to each person's free will to believe or not.
I believe you are on the correct path. I would also like to add that the Christian Bible states that Man was made in the image of God and that they are his children. (His? Why is every other creature that gives life labelled as female?) I propose that we are not only created by God, but as with everything else in the universe, a part of God itself.
@happyme many thanks for the comment. I agree with you :)
I was in the bookstore checking several books and I came across an interesting explanation of why we generally refer to God as "him" not "her" and I liked this explanation a lot.
I am sorry I don't remember exactly which book it was. I could say it has been **"The God Code" by Gregg Braden"" but I am not 100% sure. I will have to go back to the bookstore and find that. But the explanation goes something like this (from my understanding)
God is both Feminine (as it is the origin of life and creation) and Masculine (as it is the power that is holding this perfectly created universe with all that is inside of it from falling apart). Hence creation has been in part handed down to humans to aid in the process of creation (the DNA , the birth and all), God feminine part is active from behind the scenes. This leaves the part of holding the whole universe from collapsing on itself (The masculine power) in the forefront. Since the more obvious role that God is having is masculine, that is why the reference to God became a "him".
In Taoism, I think similar philosophy exist.
However, Calling God as "him" or "her" doesn't deny the existence of the other part. After all, God is all and all is God.
That's a good explanation, but I somehow believe it has more to do with the fact that the Bible was written at a time when men were considered the head of the household and somehow superior to women. By giving God a male gender it gave God more authority.
Personally, I don't believe God has any gender at all because God does not conform to any living entity that reproduces its kind. God is not born and does not die. God is ubiquitous.
I agree. That is another plausible explanation indeed.
I like what you said
Personally, I don't believe God has any gender at all because God does not conform to any living entity that reproduces its kind. God is not born and does not die. God is ubiquitous.
by steady state I mean ....no beginning, no end...it is today as it was and will ever be.
only minor details (like the birth and death of galaxies and stellar megastructures...and everything within them) change...other than that the universe is pretty much the same.
perspective is important. What a few hundred billion years between friends?
Afternoon @nextgen622, This is a great series, and I'm looking forward to following along as you go. I hope you don't mind if I respond to this, but I just wanted to offer some thoughts to consider for those who think that the universe created itself.
In an article from "Live Science," it states that the universe is always expanding. As the universe expands galaxies move further away. Even the moon that orbits our own earth is moving away at a rate of about 1.5 inches per year.
That being said, scientist are always asking, "what is beyond the universe?" We know only a small fraction about the earth, and the manner in which the earth was created, much less the universe Link to Live Science Article So the universe is ever changing. But God doesn't change.
The amazing precision of the sun's relative distance from the earth alone should raise the question that there is an intelligence that is far beyond ours who set these things in motion. If the sun were closer or further from the earth depending on the distance, the earth could have been uninhabitable. I personally believe that God set everything in its place and in motion. His word says that He set the lights in the sky, dividing the day from the night.
How many times have you thought, "A sandwich sounds good right now, I think I'll just wait until all of the elements of that sandwich come together and then I shall have a sandwich?" You can put all of the stuff needed to make that sandwich on a table, and it still isn't going to make itself. Sure, an earthquake can happen, and by chance, some of those ingredients could be mixed together, but it will be messy and not precise, and nothing like you hoped it would be. The universe is far more complex than a simple sandwich, and for the precise placement of the sun and the moon just in our solar system, I'd say that there has to be an intelligence behind it that is far, far greater than ours. Of course, I believe that God created it all.
Also, the universe can no more create itself, than a sandwich can make another sandwich. So logically, there must be something (or as I fully believe someone (God ),) behind all of creation.
Great way to look at it all and I respect everyone's individual opinions and beliefs. My difference is that, let's call it God to keep it simple, didn't create it but rather it is all God. Yes, ever expanding..... check out "fractals" on YT for a better understanding of where I'm coming from. The old cliche' of a man with a white beard and a city in the sky would be a metaphor for the comfort of man IMO. We are all a part of this source in my mind sent for experience.
Ok...everything requires a creator.
That's a general principle that applies in every case.
Gotcha.
Who created the creator?
who created the creator who created the creator?
who created the creator who created the creator who created the creator?
who created the creator who created the creator who created the creator who create the creator?
etc.
A general principle applies in ALL cases.
But God doesn't change.
Is that a matter of faith?
by steady state I mean ....no beginning, no end...it is today as it was and will ever be.
only minor details (like the birth and death of galaxies and stellar megastructures...and everything within them) change...other than that the universe is pretty much the same.
and I love this one
perspective is important. What a few hundred billion years between friends?
I follow a very similar belief system. I didn't know of Taoism but will look into it. Very pleasing to see someone on a similar plain and take the time to type it out. Gratitude and much appreciated.
Thanks for joining and your contribution to the discussion @theleapingkoala. Look forward to you joining us throughout the rest of the series and look forward to further discussion's.
:) Now that's an interesting pic and yes almost as likely as the pastor of my pasts answer. There is IMO a source. How man or any other intelligent life out there thinks of it is one thing or maybe another. The trick is not to think and just be.
Haha! I know what you mean and feel the same. My meaning was the mind is a prison of sorts and if one can clear it and be in the "Now" things become very different. It's not so easy to do but can be done.
Hello @everittdmickey, i have always had this question running in my mind and till today, not any answer and to all those i've asked, they always avoid it and talk about something else!
Why does the creator require a creator?
let me put it a different way.
where'd the creator come from?
I know God always existing is a hurdle to many, God exists outside of space and time tho so would not be bound by beginning and endings.. as science also states all the time tho just because something can't be explained at the moment doesn't mean it won't be in the future..
God exists outside of space
oh...I get it..
Matrix.
We're living in a video game.
These dogmatic ideas of slavery have no answers for someone with real questions @everittdmickey
Hi, sorry just got to your comment now. That's a very good question you raise and it's difficult for us to conceive of anything that has always existed.
Your question Where did the Creator come from? or Who created the Creator? is a very common question and assumes that there must be a point that the Creator didn't exist. Along the same lines, I can ask you how did the universe first come to be? Did it always exist?
Thanks for taking the time to contribute to this discussion.
you can ask me...but I don't have an answer.
if one thing must have a creator then shouldn't EVERYTHING have one too?
Isn't that logical?
Thanks for your honesty mate.
Yes, that is logical. If one thing has a creator, then everything should and does have a Creator. In fact the latest scientific discoveries support the fact that the universe had a beginning.
To the human logic, it is difficult to conceive of how someone/something has always existed, and that's something I've struggled with when I first explored Christianity and the Bible. But when you think about it, something that seems to defy logic and is difficult to grasp is actually good support for the truth of it's claims, because it makes it more likely that people didn't come up with the concepts through their own understanding. There are many other similar concepts in the Bible that seem to defy logic.
Thanks again for responding and your involvement in the discussion is much appreciated.
Interesting question. I grew up Southern Baptist, never really sat well with me. Never the less, this question was answered to me through one of the Pastors in my my life at some point. I always thought about it before I had the answer given to me and thought in a human way that there must be a realm of these beings. Man's version of a god must be one of these beings and had to have had a mother and father etc. I mean, how else would he/she/ it come to be? The answer I received way back in the day was before man's version of a god there was nothing. Just the darkest darkness. Imagine on a very dark night with all the lights off in your house going into your closet and shutting the door. The darkness you see so dark that you can't see your hand in front of your face. That's what I was told there was. Out of this darkness man's version of a god created himself is what was told to me. ?. So here I am imagining, since we are created in his/her/its image this man like figure floating in a laying position in this vast never ending darkness all by his lonesome before he created anything but himself.........
Thanks for contributing to the conversation. That's an interesting answer your pastor gave. Not sure where he/she got that from. It's certainly not what I believe, and certainly not what the Bible reveals about the nature of God. But thanks for joining in the discussion, and hope you will be able to join us throughout the rest of the series.
Hello there and you are welcome. Yeah, interesting and different. I'm not sure how this person came up with god creating himself out of nothing either but they seemed to believe it. I do intend on joining in and will do my best to play along. This should be one of the more interesting series of posts I've come across for sure. Thanks for the invite.
You're welcome. Look forward to your participation
sounds
almost as likely as
All are very interesting questions. Many thanks for those who asked, answered or discussed.
I am from a Muslim background. I stopped believing in Islam or the Muslim's God (or any God for that matter) sometime ago. Now I have my own version of God if you wish or spirituality which is more following the Taoism wisdom.
If you have read the Tao te Ching, the original philosopher explains God or the Tao (meaning the way) as something that can not be told or named because if it is, it will not be the real Tao. very philosophical but, personally, I find it interesting and inspiring.
In a nutshell, I personally believe that:
1- "God" is the absolute intelligent energy that forms this whole universe and whats in it. It existed before anything and it will exist after everything. It doesn't has a specific form or a specific location. It was not created because it was just there and it created this world with all the mysteries it contains.
2- This "God. a.k.a the universe or the force" gave absolute free will to humans, hence, it will not interfere in anything unless it is asked.
3- Whatever happens to humans from old times to now in the form of punishment was not the doing of this force (although made to be by humans in the old time and now in order to control the naive masses). Anything bad that happens in the world is the results of the collective negative energy of the majority of people, coming back to them. This is one of the laws of the universe. a.k.a Karma, what goes around comes around, every action has an opposite reaction similar in magnitude. Humans greed and need for power are responsible for the wars, the famine and the earth losing its natural balance, hence natural disasters.
4- I believe that hell and heaven are just a description of how we live on earth (peaceful and loving or not) and what we do (Good and helpful or not).
5- This energy is loving and wants the best for us, but since it gave us free will, it will not interfere to show us what is best, unless we ask for its help and guidance. Only then, we will get signs to lead us to the best path. These signs could be anything from other humans to intuition or gut feelings.
6- If we don't ask for help or we fail to live our life in peace and harmony, we will be given many chances to correct our wrong doings through multiple lives (hence, eternity of hell and heaven from a human point of view). But in actuality, time and eternity concepts do not exist for "God"
7- However, our souls that exist as humans XYZ at this time, will come back as humans EFG and forget the majority of XYZ's lives event, except the things that needs to be corrected, which will appear as recurrent challenges until the problem is solved and the loop gets broken.
8- The judgment day, is possibly the time that the person dies and becomes a soul or energy. They will be told what they did wrong before being sent back to correct their path.
9- The ultimate reason of creation is to discover ourselves that we are part of this loving energy and to love ourselves and each other as we are all part of one thing.
10- Hence, "God" will never tell humans, who are part of it to kill each other because they don't agree or they look different or all the B.S that is going on in all the religious book. It's all man-made.
There are so many things to discuss and discover. It is something we can never be sure of, neither we can prove or disprove. At the end, it is to each person's free will to believe or not.
Many thanks for this opportunity :)
I believe you are on the correct path. I would also like to add that the Christian Bible states that Man was made in the image of God and that they are his children. (His? Why is every other creature that gives life labelled as female?) I propose that we are not only created by God, but as with everything else in the universe, a part of God itself.
@happyme many thanks for the comment. I agree with you :)
I was in the bookstore checking several books and I came across an interesting explanation of why we generally refer to God as "him" not "her" and I liked this explanation a lot.
I am sorry I don't remember exactly which book it was. I could say it has been **"The God Code" by Gregg Braden"" but I am not 100% sure. I will have to go back to the bookstore and find that. But the explanation goes something like this (from my understanding)
In Taoism, I think similar philosophy exist.
However, Calling God as "him" or "her" doesn't deny the existence of the other part. After all, God is all and all is God.
Love and Peace :D
That's a good explanation, but I somehow believe it has more to do with the fact that the Bible was written at a time when men were considered the head of the household and somehow superior to women. By giving God a male gender it gave God more authority.
Personally, I don't believe God has any gender at all because God does not conform to any living entity that reproduces its kind. God is not born and does not die. God is ubiquitous.
I agree. That is another plausible explanation indeed.
I like what you said
Very beautiful :)
You're saying the universe is 'steady state'?
Good enough for me.
Steady state but not static of course :)
Many thanks for the reply and upvote :)
by steady state I mean ....no beginning, no end...it is today as it was and will ever be.
only minor details (like the birth and death of galaxies and stellar megastructures...and everything within them) change...other than that the universe is pretty much the same.
perspective is important. What a few hundred billion years between friends?
Afternoon @nextgen622, This is a great series, and I'm looking forward to following along as you go. I hope you don't mind if I respond to this, but I just wanted to offer some thoughts to consider for those who think that the universe created itself.
In an article from "Live Science," it states that the universe is always expanding. As the universe expands galaxies move further away. Even the moon that orbits our own earth is moving away at a rate of about 1.5 inches per year.
That being said, scientist are always asking, "what is beyond the universe?" We know only a small fraction about the earth, and the manner in which the earth was created, much less the universe Link to Live Science Article So the universe is ever changing. But God doesn't change.
The amazing precision of the sun's relative distance from the earth alone should raise the question that there is an intelligence that is far beyond ours who set these things in motion. If the sun were closer or further from the earth depending on the distance, the earth could have been uninhabitable. I personally believe that God set everything in its place and in motion. His word says that He set the lights in the sky, dividing the day from the night.
How many times have you thought, "A sandwich sounds good right now, I think I'll just wait until all of the elements of that sandwich come together and then I shall have a sandwich?" You can put all of the stuff needed to make that sandwich on a table, and it still isn't going to make itself. Sure, an earthquake can happen, and by chance, some of those ingredients could be mixed together, but it will be messy and not precise, and nothing like you hoped it would be. The universe is far more complex than a simple sandwich, and for the precise placement of the sun and the moon just in our solar system, I'd say that there has to be an intelligence behind it that is far, far greater than ours. Of course, I believe that God created it all.
Also, the universe can no more create itself, than a sandwich can make another sandwich. So logically, there must be something (or as I fully believe someone (God ),) behind all of creation.
Great way to look at it all and I respect everyone's individual opinions and beliefs. My difference is that, let's call it God to keep it simple, didn't create it but rather it is all God. Yes, ever expanding..... check out "fractals" on YT for a better understanding of where I'm coming from. The old cliche' of a man with a white beard and a city in the sky would be a metaphor for the comfort of man IMO. We are all a part of this source in my mind sent for experience.
Ok...everything requires a creator.
That's a general principle that applies in every case.
Gotcha.
Who created the creator?
who created the creator who created the creator?
who created the creator who created the creator who created the creator?
who created the creator who created the creator who created the creator who create the creator?
etc.
A general principle applies in ALL cases.
But God doesn't change.
Is that a matter of faith?
Absolutely yes (in my opinion) for
and I love this one
LOL LOL :D
I follow a very similar belief system. I didn't know of Taoism but will look into it. Very pleasing to see someone on a similar plain and take the time to type it out. Gratitude and much appreciated.
I am always happy to see like minded people and to spread the love and peace.
Many thanks for your reply and appreciation :D
The question I have is what evidence is there for your beliefs, reincarnation?
Thanks for joining and your contribution to the discussion @theleapingkoala. Look forward to you joining us throughout the rest of the series and look forward to further discussion's.
Many Thanks @nextgen622. I look forward to further discussions as well :)
:) Now that's an interesting pic and yes almost as likely as the pastor of my pasts answer. There is IMO a source. How man or any other intelligent life out there thinks of it is one thing or maybe another. The trick is not to think and just be.
Many of the young people I've met have got the not think part down pat.
Haha! I know what you mean and feel the same. My meaning was the mind is a prison of sorts and if one can clear it and be in the "Now" things become very different. It's not so easy to do but can be done.
Hello @everittdmickey, i have always had this question running in my mind and till today, not any answer and to all those i've asked, they always avoid it and talk about something else!
hahahahaha GREAT QUESTION!