RE: You're NOT Going To Like This Short Post...
Hi again Stan,
I've just spent some time checking out your blog and "getting to know you" a little better. Liking what I see so far enough to follow you, appreciating your calm and reasonable approach to interacting with others. :) Looking forward to more reading and interaction.
Regarding your immediate comment, you mistook the "presence" I was referring to in a previous comment. Perhaps I should have said "Presence" as it is the Presence of the Lamb that I had in mind. As scripture says, quoted in Hebrews 12:29:
"For our God is a consuming fire."
This is seen, perhaps most vividly, in II Thessalonians chapter one.
NOTE: CONSUMING fire saith the scriptures... Meditate on that. ;)
I'm going to take kind of a "shortcut" here by referring you the work of another on the topic of "Hell." That other is my esteemed friend and brother, who is known in cyberspace as "Brother Bird." I hope you'll enjoy his entertaining and thought provoking verse at that link. And I hope to "entertain" the subject at greater length myself in some future articles.
Thanks again for interacting! I'm "running out" again, but hope to respond to your other questions later... ;)
PS I don't at all mean to leave the impression that I take the topic of hell in any way "lightly" - it is a very serious prospect, one that every living soul ought to (for their own sake) face squarely and consider very soberly.
Imagine that instead of enjoying one of many waves over and over again in eternity your are consumed by one of many flames over and over again. Whatever you expect eternal rewards to be like for your immortal soul has its parallel eternal punishments.
For me, being cut off from God for all eternity knowing what I could have enjoyed with Him is far worse, so perhaps the worm and fire metaphors are just warnings expressed in terms we can understand. Like telling a child not to eat those never-wake-up berries.
This is a great discussion - much appreciated!
I agree that all the verses you point out are also true.
So we need to seek an understanding that agrees with every single verse you and I have both identified. If we leave one the other halves out, we will reach the wrong conclusions.
One I forgot was, "Cast him into the outer darkness where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. How long will they wail and gnash before they fade to black?
So we have "undying-worm-eaten", "smoke-rising-forever", and "outer darkness wailing" metaphors for describing what is meant by "eternal death" and "perishing" and "destruction".
The only interpretation I can think of that applies to all of the above seem to be talking about eternally destroying processes not end states.
Choosing the "simple lights out" interpretation would not fit what the following verses describe.
“They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thessalonians 1:9).
“If anyone worships the beast . . . he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever” (Revelation 14:9–11).
One would not think that simple end of existence would be described this way.
Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' ..."Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."