Illegal Immigration Crisis
Hello Friends!
I may be laid up for a few days after today, but I will try my best to keep up some contact! (Back to the hospital I go!)
So, today I bring to you my perspective on illegal immigration, which tends to separate me quite a bit from libertarianism. For this and other reasons, that's why I still identify as merely "conservative", and here's why.
I live in Phoenix, Arizona, which is just a stone's throw away from the Mexican border.
Illegal immigration as it stands is dangerous and disruptive, and I am about to have a brain aneurism if I see one more post about how evil Americans are for separating children at the border.
This logic is absurd, but it is a common tactic in left-leaning argumentative politics.
The only way to solve illegal immigration and children separation is amnesty.
Conservatives don't agree with full amnesty.
Therefore anyone conservative hates children and wants to see them separated and put in dog cages.
That is a typical leftist argument. Though, arguably a tactic used by the right as well and it's completely ridiculous.
I struggle with value arguments when it comes to law, because I try to operate around the law, as it exists, rather than speculate on what the law could or should be.
Right now, we are not an open border nation. Coming here is illegal and perceivably dangerous with not knowing who anyone is who is crossing. (Oh and with Phoenix being a literal Mecca of terrorist cells. How convenient eh?)
So the question isn't, should coming here illegally be illegal? You can't use that value argument right now. All we have to work with is that coming here illegally is as illegal as robbing a bank. If you choose to do it with your child in tow, they will be taken away from you.
That is what is happening at the border.
It is sad that children are getting caught in the crossfire, but how dare anyone point fingers at those who are just enforcing the law that people know exists. They know there is a risk of deportation or separation when arriving, and they take that risk. But should we then not enforce the law based on a value argument that is irrelevant when it comes to the reality of the law and why it exists?
I am not a cold-hearted person by nature, though it may seem like it. Emotional appeal arguments don't work on me, because they are a lazy way to appeal to someone in an argument.
Showing people videos of children crying and being separated should make you angry, but not at our government. They are coming here because we are a good country, not because we are a shitty one. Not one person has pointed a finger at the President of Mexico for refusing to fix whatever problems there are that are making people risk their lives to get here. There has also been no responsibility laid at the feet of the parents who get themselves in this mess. Just "Fuck Trump" and "Fuck Sessions".
Ugh.
Save me.
This is a terrible humanitarian problem. I do have real compassion for people, but I also have compassion for those following the law and who have waited over a decade to become a citizen, and how they must seethe when they see those who cut in line be given the same opportunities.
We definitely need reform, but you have to also understand basic economics. We have to do what's best for our country and import only those we have room for economically.
We need more doctors and scientists and people in tech. We need to import immigrants who can fill the open spots in our country.
It puts a huge strain on the middle class when we import a lower class and are then responsible for their housing, medical and education.
It's not mean, or cold and heartless.
It's just facts.
I like fact based arguments, because there is no crying your way out of them.
The real way to help immigrants in other countries is to encourage their country's leaders to raise their standards, rather than export their people by the millions and not giving a shit about what happens to them.
Anyway, I would love to hear your thoughts on this, so come at me brah. I won't be triggered. We're good.
Have a Terrific Tuesday!
- Beth
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▶️ IPFS
That is indeed a terrible argument. Anyways, there is a much easier solution: just let the children stay with their parents. I know that for some reason that is not legal in the US when the parent is being detained, but that should be a change in the law that also conservatives could support.
There is no such thing as just enforcing the law. When we see that the law has consequences that are clearly immoral we have a duty to object and refuse execution. The worst crimes in history are committed by people just enforcing law without questioning it.
People need to start owning their actions and stop hiding behind unquestioned authority. If somebody takes a child away against the will of the child and by force, then I will point fingers at the people that do it.
Yet you completely ignore the actions of others that led up to the decision to drag a child through the desert and risk separation? The parents are not obligated then to take any responsibility for their children and what happens to them when they illegally enter a country?
Enforcing a law that is immoral is one thing. I don't agree with separating children, I think we should deport the whole family back, but that was met with outrage as well. It is a lose-lose situation for anyone who doesn't believe in open borders, which would be a catastrophic nightmare at this point in our society.
I keep seeing false equivalencies everywhere. People are comparing US Border Patrol agents to Nazis who took Jewish children.
Oy Fucking Vey.
Those children were plucked from their homes and taken to internment camps to die. Their parents didn't deliberately drag them into a dangerous situation and then seek sympathy when they got caught.
It is an insult to those who actually suffered at the hands of injustice to make a false equivalence like that.
You didn't say that specifically, but your comment about the "worst crimes in history" absolutely inferred that. It's ridiculous.
I don't believe in unquestioned authority, but I do believe that our border laws make sense.
What I question more than anything is how the US is going to have the capacity to determine the difference between those actually seeking refuge, and those just looking to jump the waiting list.
Do you feel no sympathy for the families with children who are waiting to come to America?
That's where I feel the real injustice lies.
I do agree that we need to stop taking the kids from their parents, but my solution is to deport them all together. They can then reconvene and apply for citizenship like everyone else has done.
This is not an issue of an unethical law.
I did not make that comparison on purpose because this case clearly is not as bad and there is no shortage of worse events in human history. I only mentioned it to illustrate that following orders can be a recipe for disaster and one personally always has to take responsibility for the actions one does.
This would certainly be better. We may not agree on immigration, but that is a different topic.
Here is disagree. Separating children from their parents is one of the worst punishments for the children. And I do not think that the children did anything wrong, nor should they be made to suffer just to scare their parents. You can say its the parents fault, its the border patrols fault, its trumps fault, it all does not matter. In the end its the children who suffer and we have the power to prevent it.
I do not believe the state has any special rights. All rights of the state should be derived from the rights of its citizens. To see if state action is moral I always find it useful to find a similar situation in my personal life.
So lets say a mother with a toddler breaks into my house at night to steal some food. I would certainly kick them out, see if they can compensate for the damage caused. I might prevent them from escaping to sort things out. But I would not lock the mother in my basement and the child into the attic. This kind of violence against the child is not justified by self-defence, it is just me being an asshole. And if I should not do it, then the state should not do it either.
Its possible that I am quite emotional because I have two small children. They are scared at night in their own home, where nothing bad ever happened. At a playground they cry when they cant find me for a few minutes. Children are so attached to their parents, taking them away and leaving them alone in a stressful situation is not a minor detail.
Any American official that compares holding centers to Nazi concentration camps should be immediately fired and have their resignation demanded by their constituents/departments like any politician who has said anything far less sensitive and blowing up the issue that has been shown the door for other obscenely moronic statements over the past year. That is subversive speech to incite violence against the current government under false pretense, which is an effort being rallied for press agencies that are working directly against the will of the people doing far more destruction to a free society than the Russian central heads of state could have ever imagined.
"Any American official [...] should be immediately fired [..]"
Much better this way :)
National borders are not legitimate. Only personal property borders are. The blockchain can solve this problem. However, because we've allowed governments to extort people for so long, the border situation with Mexico is made worse. Getting rid of government and banking KYC regulation that created the financial exclusion pressure on Mexicans and 3rd world nations in the first place would go a long way towards solving the inequity that creates refugee crises and terrorism. It is authority in the form of KYC saying "you're not allowed to have money" that has done this and terrorism is it's byproduct.
BTW, the trouble at the border is misplayed somewhat in the US news media. I lived in Slab City, CA for a while which is full of illegals. The real story is somewhat different from what you hear which always paints Mexico as dangerous and the USA as the place of freedom. It's actually the reverse and this is what my Mexican friends have said in Slab City...
The unspoken rule in Mexico is "hands off the Americans because it's bad for business". The drug cartels want your money and don't want you to have a bad experience in Mexico so generally they will leave you alone (cartels act as a form of government too - we just label them as illegitimate because they don't wear the right colors and didn't submit to a vote). There are of course bad neighborhoods where nobody should go just as is the case in the USA. The US government doesn't want American's catching the wind of the freedom (not unaccompanied by some danger of course) down in Mexico (weak governments tend to do freedom better), so it paints this propaganda in our media.
US authority is willing to go along with a border wall mostly because it fits in with their plans to keep Americans in, not Mexicans out if things get bad here. Borders are erected to prevent exit because exits kill government parasites, and this is the exit that authority fears most...
If Mexico is so amazing though, then why do people risk their lives to illegally migrate here?
I assume it's to make more money and benefit from government handouts, since their own president encourages it.
The problem with the border dilemma you stated is that even if you took away government borders, the land that the illegals are crossing on is private. Private land owners have been complaining for decades that these people are traipsing on their land and the government won't do anything about it, and it's illegal for them to do anything about it. You can't like, shoot someone just for entering onto your property.
The issue for me is always the "what to do in the meantime". Like, the awful purgatory between what would be best for the country, and where we are at right now.
Things aren't going to fix themselves overnight, so how do we curb illegal immigration and what do we do with the people who are already here, and the ones who will be here in a day, week, month?
There isn't "one Mexico". There's two. You've got a very large class of poor people who are at the advanced edge of corporate pillaging (the USA is lagging behind in that regard but will eventually catch up), and the wealthy. The wealthy in this country leave here to go to Mexico (particularly Acapulco and the southern areas).
And that's the problem. You don't own land if you can't control it. Government owns your land and that is part of their fraud on the people. You just pay rent to the landlord who happens to be in this case county and various state governments.
There is no practical solution that involves the state because they are the problem. Government created the conditions that made this whole situation what it is. If private property rights were respected (civil asset forfeiture pretty much proves that they have no respect), that would go a long way to resolving this issue for everyone involved.
We first must understand that we aren't "Americans" or "Mexicans", but earthlings. Until then, you haven't eliminated enough government doublespeak to get at the root cause, which is fundamentally theft and lack of respect for personal property rights.
There is no practical solution that government can provide except get out of the way. Yes it will be awful when they finally do this (and they will have to step out of the way eventually when govt collapses). But the pressures wouldn't have built up to this level without government engineering this in the first place.
A free people are not denied an exit or entrance to anywhere except to that which was previously occupied out of respect. Natural law is the means to the solution here.
What was Slab City like? I've seen some videos about it.
There was a lot of garbage toward the south end. Because it's such a wasteland, nobody wants it and the government can't sell it. So it has become the mecca of squatters and RV users (particularly in winter) because there's lots of flat concrete that is level making it ideal for RV camping. Not many women go there. It's almost all men and mostly homeless men at that (and illegals of course added into the mix).
There's a club they go to at night (LOW) Loners on Wheels toward the center. Solar Mike is straight in from the main drive off of Niland on the left. He's the guy who helped me set up my solar (in the white hat pointing to the dirt in the below picture)...
I arrived in mid march 2009 which is about the time everyone moves out (the snowbirds) leaving the minority homeless as a majority.
Leonard Knight (the guy who created Salvation Mountain - you see that on the right as you drive in from Niland) is gone now. Don't know who maintains the place now.
That looks fascinating. Thanks for the story and photos.
Maybe I'll have to live there if gentrification wipes me out.
This is such an important issue and very controversial, because the faucets of manufactured news that is spewing everywhere is purely emotion driven and not fact based, whatsoever. Let's get down to the heart of the matter in this issue. There is a very sinister underlying tone in this argument that cannot be discussed due to racist superlatives tossed around like candy at a 4th of July parade. There is a section of this country's (US) lawmakers, establishment whatever you want to call them, that want to water down the current population with people that are downtrodden so they can ''give (redistribute wealth)'' to them, earning their gratitude for generations. There are thoughts that getting as many young people in the country right now will sway the ballot boxes drastically in the next 10-15 years radically progressive. Rather than holding these (you know what) hole countries to account for their corrupt and contrary to the will of the will people actions due to their personal interests, causing a migration crisis that is manufactured. I am all for immigration that is legal. I think everyone should be given a chance legally to immigrate to the US should they want to. But it is not their right to come here if they wish, that is up to the will of the people, and cook fringe radicals are hijacking these debates and making it about something else because they can't be honest. They want to fundamentally annihilate the current demographics of the US to form a more perfect global member, rather than be accountable for their horrid actions against the will of the people for the last several years. But then you are racist for even bringing that up. Virtually any American could care less what the race of their neighbor is, we just don't want people running around with zero accountability to the system while the actual citizens fill out mountains of paperwork just to fill out a job application, or change addresses, or little things like that.
This is the most no-nonsense answer I have heard on this. Very well put!
Thank you, you are very kind. I have heard more straight forward responses but they were by people far sharper on the issues than me. I try not to get too inflamed about the issues, but this one has really upset me. Best of luck with your situation, stay away from the cable news networks during your stay, maybe that will make it less stressful. Maybe there is a rerun of MASH on or whatever else is a little more comical at the moment.
Undocumented people file a lot of paperwork. They actually like doing it because it establishes a presence in the US, and maybe that could help them get a green card in the future.
I went to the tax collection office, and that room was packed with immigrants. I was like, WTH? I thought they liked to dodge taxes - because I lived in an area where the LEGAL immigrants dodged taxes.
Nope. These were probably the undocumented kind, who were probably paying taxes on things like street vending and swapmeet businesses. They want to get some documentation, so they pay taxes, in person, in cash.
That is great! People like that are what we need, the system is definitely letting them down, because of an abundance of undocumented illegal alien residents legal immigration is bogged down as well. I would be all for opening up legal immigration as much as we can possible, letting people like you mentioned meet conditions for legal residence and/or maybe full citizenship, over time. The problem is that there is a rush to get as many people as possible to get their children citizenship due to being born here to flip the electorate to a majority of persons who are dependent on the government due to full blown lack of assimilation and having to hide in the shadows. It's not political because all in elected office are not taking a legitimate look at the problem of trying to flip the electorate into an extreme progressive mindset overturning constitutionality to allow a political aristocracy to remain in power, making it impossible in the future also to have any say on future immigration, a pseudo invasion. It has happened before several times but here is one example. England used to be made of up Anglos, then the Saxons (think German region back then) it was thought for centuries forcefully invaded southern England, thus creating the Anglo-Saxon tag for their descendants. Archeological evidence is showing they basically showed up and squatted in Southern England, making it their own over time over running the Anglo culture forming what we know today as the Anglo-Saxon (Protestant--of German descent carryover--of the tag WASP) in the country.
That's really interesting!
It's also important to note that progressives have been pushing a declining birth rate for Americans by peddling the nonsense that we will save our Earth if less Americans have children.
Of course this is bologna when people in third world countries, who can't provide the essential necessities for their children are still having them by the dozen, utilizing overtaxed resources as it is etc.
But - this created an opportunity, a gap if you will. Politicians now threaten that we won't have enough kids to support the millennials and new generations' retirement and social security. SO, the answer is to import it.
But not legally.
Because those people might recognize the value of our society, the laws, the rules, and the importance of capitalism, and gasp not vote Democrat.
Importing illegal immigrants who have heard of the great promise of welfare will not only guarantee more children, but also a higher percentage of welfare-dependent population that will rely on the government and always vote for leftist socialist programs.
This has been well on its way since the 1950s.
America is so fucked.
Haha so right unfortunately. Very well put. It is sad but true in uber left politics today. It floors me that older democrats go along with this agenda, but if they're old enough they supported LBJ, Carter, Dukakis, Gore, Kerry and of course the latest edition, whatever that was.
The laughable thing is Trump might lean left slightly more than JFK did, and all we hear about is oppression this, fascist that, dictator this...when he is using every ounce of energy to return more power to the people in a representative form of government, and there are still people even in his own party who will not go along with it. I am sure you have heard professors telling their students "the best thing they can do for the environment is commit suicide, humans are destroying the planet." I look forward to the soon to be educational reforms that will be rolling out sooner than everybody thinks, with alternate accredited education attempts. Monopolization has sadly become the government stance on just about everything it gets its' fingers on. Well said, thanks for the comment on top of the comment, I sent you that link not for a vote, I just thought you would get a kick out of the reply. The point that was brought up was a great one, and people like they are talking about are near the top getting screwed over the worst in US immigration policy.
Why do people say "Democrats are importing" people? The undocumented generally come here on their own, sometimes paying a guide to smuggle them in.
The only people who could be considered "imported" are guest workers and corporate L1 visas, who come in with a relationship to a company that is sponsoring them.
That's great, but I think you need to study the actual immigration laws a bit more. People born in the US are automatically citizens.
Yep, they certainly are. That is why there is a massive rush to get as many illegal immigrants inside the borders right now. It is not legal to steal something, then endow it in a trust to your next of kin, making the crime in the first place null and void. I do see your point, yes, everyone born in the United States is entitled citizenship-but I think this is going to change and there is going to be some serious hearings coming down the road in the Supreme Court. The law in itself is flawed, was overturning Dred Scott decision that made slaves not people but property to their owner making them ineligible for citizenship, thus unable to become free in free states, thus creating that same standard until this particular amendment were overturned for their children to be born in the future, meaning no person is owned by another and the state grants rights of full citizenship (until unconstitutional and outright intellectually bankrupt Plessy v. Ferguson, ouch what a rough half century for the SC by the way) which brought us "Separate but equal(?)." In my humble opinion (and I greatly thank you for the commentary on this great stuff--great dialog about the issues rather than the personalities in leadership) you cannot commit a crime and have it bound in "a willingly unenforced national sanctuary trust," involving international immigration, it's clear as day and mentioned explicitly in the Constitution of the United States. It is an outright abandonment of duty for the three branches to outright skate their duties in the issue, and yes it is coming to a head very very soon.
Nice post .
I agree with you .
Thanks for sharing @bethwheatcraft
Upvote you .
If I leave my Car door unlocked, I get blamed when it is stolen. I have no reason to see this border issue any different so yeah, Mr. Trump should take the criticism when and where it's justified even if I agree (since the 80's) that the illegal border crossings should be halted..
There is no reason to become abusive. Greetings!
I fail to see how "leaving the country's borders open" is Trump's fault, seeing as though he has been trying to get said borders closed but keeps getting blowback.
Also, a lot of this is hot air coming from the media. 10k of the roughly 12k kids in these centers came over here unaccompanied to begin with and weren't abused and/or ripped from their parents.
The media definitely knows how to spin something to make it seem more dramatic though.
There was a general amnesty in the 1980's, and this issue is indeed much older than Trump's presidency and has irritated me for many years. Rather than deporting these people, why not close the border first? La Migra has been picking up and deporting people for decades that simply walked back a week later. What Mr. Trump is doing is draining the Swamp with the flood gates left open. Since the general amnesty, which cleared about 5 million undocumented people, another estimated 12 million people came to the US illegally and you don't have enough Trains to ship them back. Immigrating to the US and doing things by the book is an expensive proposition, so leaving that border unsecured is an open invitation to forgo the formalities.
The Media will indeed often find the absolute worst picture to bolster their claims, ..but sometimes they don't. It becomes a matter of who you believe, I believe...
All the people, adults and children, must cross from Mexico. Mexico is doing little, if anything to stop the dangerous journeys of these people. It was basically stated by Homeland Security head that if you feel in danger in your own country, come to the border crossing and ask for asylum. That is not what's happening.
There's no magic wand that determines which of these children are more in danger with the adults they are traveling with, than in the hands of border agents. The HS agents are overwhelmed.
We all need to work together to find solutions, not fire off derogatory statements as some in the media.
I don't think we are pulling children because we feel they are in danger, but to lawfully detain their parents for breaking the law.
The problem with offering asylum to anyone who feels in danger, is that there is no magic wand to determine if someone is actually in danger, or if they are just coming here for privileges they know they can get through having a baby on American soil.
I'm sure very few of the Mexicans who cross the Arizona border are in life-threatening danger. And if they are, why isn't Mexico doing something about it? Why is it America's responsibility to take on the weight of the world?
We can blame our president until the cows come home, but is that really where the blame should lie? I guess that's what I was saying.
@bethwheatcraft I am in agreement with you on this subject. When I was out of work a while back and had no health coverage (COBRA way to high) I was given such a hard time in the hospital to be seen. Now I saw people that were illegals, not speak English and have no money or coverage get seen. This really pissed me off to no end. As for what to do with all of the people that come over illegally, I agree they should wait like everyone else but that will never happen. Even if they were all sent back it will still cost Americans money (in their taxes). There is simply no win in this for anyone it seems. Great post again Beth. I hope you feel better soon.