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RE: The Price Of Liberty

Actually, I would say that no one really believes in a benevolent king or millionaire, nor ever has. The majority of people are either too busy to think about or too realistic to fall for the fact that there are many humanists among the established structures. We all know that grown structures tend to want to preserve themselves, we ourselves are no different. If someone were to ask us to give up the family or professional advantages we have created through relationships, we would say "no" to that too. Why give up something that took a long time and a lot of energy? I see it that you speak of a cultural phenomenon, since it is ideal figures from film and cinema and the media in general who portray a good-hearted ruler. But surely these humanists have existed and will continue to exist. They are the bright exception to the rule and their radiance and influence should not be underestimated, precisely because they represent a minority and can move a lot that the masses never moved or aspired to, but merely imitated or followed in parts. So now the uncovering and denigrating of black sheep, capital locusts and so on belongs to the good tone of investigative journalism, just as the reporter wants to report about it when something good happens in a society.

Since we live in an age of great scales and central elements control people's destinies, there is probably no really good and plausible way to turn a central power structure into a decentralized one, except to make global peace and allow local solutions to energy and supply issues to evolve. The one often contradicts the other and so over the centuries we experience a wave movement that sometimes expresses itself in conflict and war.

Capitalism has many downsides. But without this form of economic activity nobody could afford a health system and people would have to pay their doctor's bills and operations themselves or die or remain ill like before.

In fact, I would like to contradict you repeatedly as far as the faith of the populations in benevolent kings is concerned. Much more is criticized, questioned, demonstrated, researched, published and what the classical media no longer produce is now taken over by the citizens themselves. But the question is whether the citizen is really so much better than what he reproaches the rulers for.
The Internet age is just like the newspaper and television in its infancy. People try themselves as journalists and television makers in all kinds of fields of interest and learn that television makers require certain professional qualities. It's interesting to see how dilettantism alternates with professionalism on the channels and people who really want to make quality realize how expensive it is. Not so much in technical equipment, but in time. So those who have this time live from the goodwill of others who still earn their own money in classical works. Most of it is uninteresting and boring or very stressful and full of time constraints.

I suppose about five percent of the population manages to make a living from their creative ideas and designs, the rest would like to, but can't. Nevertheless, we have much more freedom than people had in the Middle Ages, and perhaps much less freedom than people had in the days of hunter-gatherer communities.

Inasmuch as you know a charismatic and kind-hearted both immaculate person, I would suggest that you support them as much as you can and support their influence in spreading it. In fact, this is no easy question: Who is such a person? Do we know him personally? How can one even judge such a person? I suspect that people who are not guilty of malice and other vices could step into the light all by themselves and be supported by the masses, because what is real and true is actually much more interesting to support. It's a personal question of focus.

You're addressing fundamental questions, I think that's necessary. On the other hand, it distracts from detail. These details are often very interesting, such as organizing democratic structures differently, for example through systemic consensus. But things first have to be put into practice and you have to report on them. Only companies or associations have practical examples to offer. Such examples can be researched and disseminated as examples in a publication.

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Thanks so much for this well thought out and eloquent response my friend :-) I agree with a lot of what you're saying here; I just draw very different conclusions.

Nevertheless, we have much more freedom than people had in the Middle Ages, and perhaps much less freedom than people had in the days of hunter-gatherer communities.

Yes, much more freedom through technological progress, not due to essential differences in the economies of these eras. Slavery, feudalism and capitalism are all predicated on the same class structure, nothing fundamental has changed; still the masses work for the benefit of the few.

Capitalism has many downsides. But without this form of economic activity nobody could afford a health system and people would have to pay their doctor's bills and operations themselves or die or remain ill like before.

Nah, you're way too optimistic here. Capitalism has almost no upsides and produces the sociopaths who sit atop Mount Plutocrat.

On the other hand, it distracts from detail.

It's the opposite; too much attention to detail distracts from the systemic failures that can only be detected from the helicopter-view. And the choice of detail to focus on is skewed heavily toward said distraction as to uphold the myth of the benevolent king.

I've bookmarked the link on systemic consensus and will read that later; thanks for bringing that to my attention :-)

Thank you very much, I greatly appreciate a discussion partner who accepts different views or cultivates an elegant debating style.

I would once again contradict the mention of the myth you say is consistent. In no historical record does there seem to be evidence that there were benevolent rulers who ruled their people justly and for the good of all. From a certain magnitude - in which we live today - a consensus-oriented community does not seem possible. We all know the situation where no consensus can be found when the debate is hot and the result is inability to decide, even hostility. However, the fact that consensus can very well be found by means of a formal method and that these ideas have to be made public as practical examples in order to be understood and established in the long term is the detail I am talking about. I am not talking about distraction and compensation, but about innovation of social coexistence. Only when the meta-view has taken place and one looks at the systems a little emotionless (but not without compassion) can one move calmly in them. This view should, however, lead to practice, less in discussions about the new practice, but more in real experience.

Apart from that: The majority of the people, i.e. the citizens, are either tired or upset. I rarely see people who don't get upset, who read the headlines full of worries, who talk about injustice and dissatisfaction, who at the same time radiate an aura of inspiration and charm. Ordinary people know little or nothing about details. Now you don't have to accuse anyone of it, because the accusation is of little use.

The average person is the one who likes to criticize innovation the most, because he deals with the usual and familiar and doesn't want it any other way. I live with people in a city who want virtually nothing to do with what has not yet gained popularity and who simply reject ideas that are heard before their time because they are not interested in thinking them through in detail and consistency or do not understand them at all from the outset. Nobody can blame them for this either. I say this because I, too, am an ordinary person who, in parts, has conservative attitudes without perhaps really knowing about them. You can't investigate everything. That's why I've given up searching for culprits either horizontally or vertically; or try to :).

But if you ask me, the citizen is often enough himself the strongest enemy, less the rich or the unknown millionaire. Look at people's living rooms and gardens, their books, their furnishings, their desires and needs: You will find that they are very similar and the urge to adapt is very strong.

I remember when nobody knew UBI I was looked at very funny and smiled at. But I was only fascinated by it and went into a deep study of matter. This led me to take a far more differentiated view than I would have initially suspected. It was only after the confrontation that it became clear to me that there were no simple solutions. Not because they don't exist, but because people don't like to believe in them.

I like experiments and therefore I also like the idea of systemic consensus. It doesn't sound spectacular at all in theory. It's a very dull and seemingly incomprehensible word. But in practice! Oh, how nice it is to be a witness and experience such things!

This is an aspect of freedom that everyone in their group can try out. An experience and an idea that is so practical that you can try it everywhere. In the long run this may change something about capitalism.

Wow... Much respect my friend, not only for exhibiting such innate curiosity about all different angles from which this subject can be approached, but also for your ability to put such important concepts, like "real change is a bottom-up process" and "democracy can't work without a basic consensus-model," in such plain words. I love your attitude and have much respect for the way you face life and humanity. In the end I believe that we agree much more than we disagree, and that we would have to dive deeper into what all discussed terms mean to us personally, for example what capitalism is exactly, or economy in general for that matter...

I see that you write quite regularly, so I've started following you :-)

I really love this response @erh.germany, and I encourage everyone to read it :-)

Wow here, too! I am delighted that you read so accurately between the lines and communicate back to me the messages I wanted to cover, in particular what you called "democracy can't work without a basic consensus-model". That hits the nail. I am certain of the fact that majority voting methods work against democracy and leave room for many dissatisfactions.

I so hope you will react on my article I linked in my first comment here. For the experiment I need much more data and feedback. But maybe you have time and interest to open up a new round with maybe another proposals. As maybe the theme I discussed an wanted to vote for was too complicated. Please let me know what you think. Thank you.

I'm chronically out of time, so I can't delve too deep in there with you ;-) I did read your article however, and must say I like the premise a lot. I don't think the theme you chose is too difficult. I believe you explained very clearly what "risk journalism" entails and the 13 "resistance choices" you lay out are pretty straightforward too; as they should be in a functional democracy :-) Here's my score:

  1. W2
  2. W7
  3. W2
  4. W9
  5. W1
  6. W6
  7. W10
  8. W5
  9. W9
  10. W0
  11. W10
  12. W3
  13. W7

Like I said: the premise is great and I agree that this more nuanced way of making choices should lead to a lot less friction in the democratic process. Makes one wonder: why don't proposals like these ever really see the light of day?

Cool, thank you!

As we are now 4 people, I evaluated our results and here they are:

The least resistance was here:
"Risk journalism is needed"

which obviously doesn't say a thing about the quality. But included other statements, it does give also information about it, as the second place with the least resistance is:

"Risk journalists should consider scientists as well as laymen and other professionals in their reporting"

And rank 3 in the least resistance is this proposal, which I find really interesting:

"Sensationalism is harmful to every publication in risk journalism, even though a reporting contains correct facts & figures".

How on earth can majority voting come to such a result if one is forced to choose for only one thing? I am glad you got the idea immediately. So, if a chief editor makes a research on what his readers would like to read, this would be a great method to find that out.

For the sake of better seeing our dialogue I give myself a vote. Which I normally don't do.

Again, thank you so much!

why don't proposals like these ever really see the light of day?

I wonder. Maybe because people only follow what they already know?

Internet is empty on this term. It's an unused one. And maybe people mostly talk but don't invest time in things which need more effort than usually.

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