How Good Person Tokens could lead to censorship

in gpt •  2 years ago  (edited)

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first let me say this. i love @ned and i'm his biggest fanboy in south korea. i'm only stating my concerns.

4 days ago he gave us an idea for steemit where 'good persons' can be verified. 'bad actors' such as bidbots, spammers, and those who post low quality content would be filtered. sounds good right?


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you're going through airport security before entering steemit land.

oracle 1 decides if your account is owned and run by a single human being, and none of your secondary accounts would be on the list. if (a big if) this makes sure that nobody could game account-based voting, we might be ok. there's still room for 3rd party abuse and more on curation trails on super linear curve. but lemme leave it aside for now because i have a few more important questions.


would steemit now require id or credit card? how else would they verify individuality for each and every account?

idveri.jpg

@nairadaddy suggested an idea where it could be done by ai instead of humans handpicking who they like, but even so steemit inc would be picking specific nodes and examples of a good person that would become the basis for ai decision making. you can't simply create a sentient robot and tell him to pick good people.


oracle 2 decides whether you've been abiding by guidelines written by steemit inc

the guidelines could be anything. if @ned is a trump supporter, you'd have to be a trump supporter too. or at least fake it for the GPT (you can replace it with obama it's still the same regulations).

but he wouldn't do anything like that right? he'll make sure those guidelines only apply to evil doers like spammers and whales who are bullies and abusers of multiple accounts right?


like how you'd trust zuckerberg to do the same?

@ned should've uploaded the guidelines and how he plans to verify you as an individual. it would've been a little clearer. but even if he did, there's no way he'd come up with perfect guidelines, no matter how talented his team is (but yes they're talented). he'd have to put an end to the debate that has continued since the birth of democracy.

it's why people go for the wisdom of the crowd and its ability to make changes. blockchains are popular because we don't wanna leave the responsibility to a single individual. @ned might be a genius for co-creating steemit, but oracle 1, 2 are entirely based on his wisdom. or his team's wisdom. they're the individuals that'll be looking at your personal info and decide if you're a 'good person'.
(their family and friends could get a free pass. they might have a few enemies in real life who could be blacklisted. for the rest of us, you're trusting every individual at steemit inc to be a 'good person')

he did correct me a little, saying oracles could compete each other for the most accurate whitelists (plural).

nedre.png


if he does it, this post is irrelevant

also remember that he said GPT will not be the only SMT (even tho we dunno who's planning to implement. who with what kinda influence and background?). everything is hypothetical at this point.

people tend to gravitate towards centralization anyway (if they find their leader to be a 'good person'). in south korea, something is legit only if it's verified by the government (or sometimes by a large corporation like samsung). education, finance, housing, phones, food, drinks, and even jobs. working for the government (from the post office to the irs), is the most prestigious because they have been verified.

so who knows? there's still a big chance that steemit inc's verification system could work (even if it's against the current trend of blockchains and decentralization). or @ned might decide to make the changes. my only wish is that it doesn't lead to the downfall of steemit. much like what happened to all the other platforms that lost their cool in a single event and eventually disappeared.


most of this is me guessing on what the 'individuality feed run by steemit inc' could be like. i certainly hope it's not a centralized system run by steemit inc, but rather multiple oracles (the more the merrier) competing to publish the most accurate list of 'good persons'. lemme know what you think. thanks.

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As ned stated (not mentioning him to avoid troubling him too much), those are only hypothetical tokens. They were invented just to show what SMT's would be capable of doing. If however they are added to Steemit, this wouldn't be bad for the Steem blockchain but just for Steemit ! Other Steem apps would have their own or no SMT's and those wouldn't have anything to do with the GPT's. What you are scared of is one of the reasons why SMT's will be so good in my opinion. Some websites don't want to be decentralized and want to be able to filter content (by quality, political view...), with SMT's they will be able to do so. This doesn't mean that all websites will do the same ! Ultimately the power will be in our hands as users to pick our platforms, it will be our fault if we decide to pick a centralized one. Content posted on the blockchain will still act the same as it does now (with trending, hot, created, vote weight...). Just think of SMT's as a layer added on top of the posts generated by a specific app to make it more convenient for the app to get what it needs (trending by vote count instead of post value for example).

That's what I think I've understood from everything that's been said about SMT's so far. Hopefully it's correct because that would be amazing !

thanks for your comments. lemme just clarify a few things.
the future you described is awesome. i'll love it, and certainly not be afraid of it.
but it will only come under certain conditions. that i'm very afraid.

you can't have websites competing each other like that when GPT is the only dominant SMT. yes you can have 1000s and 1000s of different dapps/websites/bots/etc on top of the steem blockchain, each having their own SMTs, but the sheer number is not an issue at all. it's whether an SMT can create a rewards pool or not.

GPT will do it. nobody doubts that. @ned even hinted that it could be used as a metric for quality posts. people will trade it. now you need someone who can match that rewards pool otherwise it's not a competition. it's gotta be someone who has enough followers and influence that his/her SMT will match the total marketcap (most tokens won't even have a marketcap). but nobody in this community is bigger than @ned.

it's why i keep saying you need a bigger player entering with a new SMT. it's the only way to ensure that steem will be an ecosystem for all sorts of SMTs. if not, GPT will be the dominant one. it's a token verified by steemit inc according to their own behavioral guidelines.

This is great way to earn more rewards and token is needed.
I like your contribution and support you dear.
You are really good person.

thanks. we need many tokens (SMTs). we need several big players coming in and creating a bunch of new reward pools. we might even need strong governance. but that governance must not be entirely dependent on @ned or steemit inc. it must be decentralized enough so that the community has the ability to act on its own behalf, rather than relying on a single entity to simply do the right thing.

such a very good offer my friend @roundbeargames

thanks @evananisa. i'd have to assume the first big player to create a new SMT, to start creating a rewards pool that doesn't need to be nurtured by steemit inc itself, is absolutely crucial for its own survival as a social platform. the question is who is @ned talking to?

This is great @roundbeargames and shows how much you thought about both sides. It seems hypothetical but I can see it happening.

you can't simply create a sentient robot and tell him to pick good people.

I just hope it doesn't turn into the soup nazi bot from Seinfeld.

😄 on second thought, maybe you could make one. now we start worshiping a bunch of 0s and 1s. a digital god that nobody can dispute. doesn't seem so bad actually.. or are we in a terminator movie.

anyways should we meet next week?

Great idea... meeting together and the digital god concept... true but there is more...

I see the code everywhere

I worked in a molecular genetics research lab for a year after graduation. The code is totally present. Although we can manipulate it and reproduce it we cannot create it because it is here already.

yea lemme know on discord if you have time. and wow i didn't know you did research on that. i have no idea what they do over there. but once we start creating something in our own image, that'd be interesting. and scary.

Esta aceptable la propuesta, ya sea de parte de los mayores(arriba) observar buen contenido y aplicar para mejorar...Muy buen post e interesante, saludos amigo

steemit clearly has a lot of room for improvement. only death awaits if they fail to adjust and make the right changes. i hope they facilitate community growth in a way that's not too centralized.

Gracias amigo @roundbeargames por ayudarnos a entender como funciona el Blockchain Database de Steemit. Una pregunta la censura seria por parte de Steemit o de parte del Blockchain

thanks @franciscana23. let's hope steem goes to the moon. you should do some googling yourself because i'm guessing a lot here 😃

That we hope all friend, that Steem reaches the moon and if it is possible much futher @roundbeargames

oh yes. i won't go higher than steem but hopefully watch it take off and benefit me in some ways 😃

@roundbeargames Your concerns are understandable,This offer seems to me to be very good. I always support you.@upvoted & @resteemed.

thanks for the resteem! but i'm also concerned about your steemit page because you want your own content, rather than simple links.

This offer seems to me to be very good to know whom they are the good persons regards.

it's good if a 'good person' could be defined by the community. a single entity like steemit inc or some smartest person in the world can't do it alone. shouldn't do it alone 😌

Your concerns are understandable, @roundbeargames.

My take away was that checks would be made against such things as self voting, etc.. Any tweeking that will counter abuse is worth a try in my estimation.

thanks. self voting is bad? i've been self voting a lot 😐
anyways it's pretty clear bidbots are bad. so are isis beheading videos. i probably won't question anything around those issues even if they're included in the guidelines.

what if i'm a homophobe? or accused of? i certainly don't support murder, genocide, torture, and sexslaves, but i could be a kim jung un supporter. what if i support a president that @ned really really hates?

i just don't think it's possible for any human being or an organization to come up with a guideline that clearly defines what a 'good person' is. all such attempts have failed (quite miserably). can god do it? we have disagreements on that too.

btw i'm just playing the devil's advocate. there's a few things 99% of us wish would disappear from steemit. but there's a lot more grey area that i'm concerned with and steemit inc alone won't be able to deal with it.

If you, or a group that you are a part of, feel thwarted by STINC Policy, then there is nothing stopping such a group from handling the input and delivery of content on the blockchain differently as the code is open source and the database is distributed. Imagine Busy Darknet 2.0. 😎

P.S. Perhaps better than Good Person would be Community Exceptable Behavior. Less judgemental and allows evolution over time.

P.P.S Self voting was removed a few forks ago and then returned. Rumour is that it is removed in the next fork again.

thanks for pointing that out, but guidelines have nothing to do with code. they can't define spam or other 'bad code' in meaningful detail. they're general terms that are subjective to interpretation. it's why we don't trust governments and banks.

if we have a bunch of individuals going around finding 'bad actors', they'd have different results. but yes they'd overlap on some of the most obvious ones. but the community's already kinda doing that. steemit inc should be included as one of those individuals. but it shouldn't be the big boss telling us what a 'good person' is.

Hopefully it will be community driven with community concensus as to what is exceptable.

yup let the community do it 👍

Wow Really amazing post my dear friend..Outstanding post..

thanks @niharikalove. you're an outstanding friend. much appreciated.

how would they be filtered that is different from flagging currently?

i have no idea. that's exactly one of my concerns.

This is great . Outstanding post.. Resteemed it . Thanks

thank you. steem and SMT 가즈아 😎

You seem to be a good observer, sorry if my English is ugly ..😄

no need to be sorry for anything! thanks for stopping by.

You are welcome😄

I think we should not worry so much buddy, let's give the benefit of the doubt, in the same way that we all know that if it does not work if it is centralized or becomes another facebook as you say, then most people will leave the platform, I think that it does not suit themt, they need to attract more people, we have to wait and see, we have to be patient

thanks. i am giving them the benefit of the doubt. steem is my biggest investment. i'm not rich but to me it's a lotta money.

yes, if a company brings out whitelists and guidelines when they have a platform on a blockchain, while claiming they're censorship resistant, it could easily be their downfall.

@ned did mention possible changes, so we'll see what happens.

Extraordinary post friend, good offer but you have to wait a bit to see what happens, you're great @roundbeargames

thanks. you're a great friend. i have no idea who with what influence is going to create a new SMT. so we'll see!

this information is very good, now steemit has a little more security, I realized because a friend tried to enter and could not, but it is very good that the platform takes into account the bad grades of certain people. That's why every day I try to be better, thank you once more for sharing this information

for now i think they're just slowing down people from creating multiple accounts and abusing the rewards pool. i have no idea how they're gonna solve the issue if steemit and SMT goes main stream (if).
contrary to my opinions more security and verification could actually turn out to be good. so we'll have to see. and as always i appreciate your support 😌

great friend.

I hadnt heard of this so thanks for sharing, I do like the idea of cleaning up some of the spammers and such, but anything like this can go so wrong as well I guess we will have to watch what develops

tip!

thanks for stopping by! i'd love to have spammers cleaned out too but no behavioral guideline will ever be able to clearly define spam, or any other malicious activity. it's open to so many different people's opinions. i see the 'good' intentions but yea it can go wrong. and whatever can go wrong will 😆

Spammers are clever and put a lot of effort to find ways around whatever is put in place sadly

yes it's why general guidelines put up by one man is almost meaningless 😌

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thanks it's mostly my guesses rather than info. so i'd recommend you google it as well 😃

Hitman, you is a smart mofo mon!
Excellent comments. I think there may be so much MOOLA around big companies that have approached on the SMT, that's all that's getting done these days..
I am thinking whitelist may replace flags?

Anyway, whitelist is a blacklist in sheeps clothing and sounds more positive, but it requires some maint either way, and white lists are usually compared to blacklists during maint or initial creation.
In some ways it sounds like all of steemit could be switching over to it's own SMT as well?
So we can imagine a "democratic steemit" inside a wildwest Steem blockchain? ;-)

thanks mon. for steemit's survival it is absolutely critical that the steem blockchain becomes a wildwest where all sorts of SMTs can fight each other. steemit inc will have their own SMTs like GPT or appics or whatever. but their own token must not be the dominant force. if it does, steemit will die. it'd be steemit trying to be another facebook, and you can't beat facebook in their own game.

and i appreciate you coming here and adding a lot of input. it's helped me think in a few different angles. i love it 👍

before, i would say that; this writing is really great.

  • I think, today they already have more than 100 accounts per person. They have personal bot and bring themselves alive. Steemvoter has worked on helping them. But I agree with your idea, Account verification is still weak and welcome to verify steemit account with credit card. emmm .... but i am one of those .. hahahhaha.
  • the owner of the minnow account needs to re-read about the steemit guidance, to avoid abuse and quickly grow well on his own body without having to kneel to the someone.

Thanks my friend ..

thanks. i'm not exactly understanding this comment, but i'm guessing you support stronger verification by credit card?

i'm against the idea of steemit inc collecting that much data, but at the same time, if steemit can verify everyone in the world, it's essentially another facebook. most people would be happy to give up their credit card and passport and a whole lot more if their investments can go 1000x. so yea. i might have my doubts. but i can't say no to that either.

I have to apologize, because my english is not good..
I support for verify Account with credit card. .this is great idea and I agrees with your reviews. Thank you...

i'm warning against the possibility. how steem could start collecting personal info just like facebook. and eventually lose.
but people actually enjoy centralization. so we'll see 😌

Thanks for this information .... because before i did not know this.

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Hey, @roundbeargames this information is wonderful. and this is great post,dear this post resteemed.

thanks! a lot of this is guessing and my opinions only. so you should definitely do the research yourself as well! 😃

Welcome dear :)
You are right

Yes, I think transparency needs to be prevalent, like it is with all our accounts.
Just like airport security :)
Protect us from the quality hating, spammers :)
Peace.

yes transparency is good. but i was referring to airport security because it's not transparent at all! 😆

  ·  2 years ago (edited)

Yes, I realised that :P
I actually loved the undercurrent :)
Thus freedom hating terrorsists/quality hating spammers :)
Peace.

Hello boss,

You are really wonderful person.
This is a great way what you want.