You are viewing a single comment's thread from:
RE: Dan Larimer Cannot Censor Accounts with 51% of Hashes
At which point Bitrex says Alice can go fuck herself and locks her account. I think you are grasping at straws here if your argument is that this actually gives Alice an advantage when the reality is that it would be a fucking nightmare if 3/5 mining pools decided to fuck your wallet over.
I'm still leaning heavily in the direction that @Dan is right. The only counter arguments I can see is the likelihood this would happen. Which is pointless. WE KNOW IT CAN HAPPEN. Its functionally possible. But the moment Bitrex starts losing money to double spending is the moment shit gets locked down fast as fuck with them.
When Alice executes the double spend, bittrex won't shut her account down, they will put the wallet on maintenance. If it happens more than once, the coin in question gets delisted. There is plenty of precedence for delisting PoW coins that are double spent through 51% attack. Alice can then move to a new exchange.
Dan's 51% hashes don't censor Alice, it kills the coin.
You are struggling to defend @dan, but he's not even here defending himself. He's hiding because he knows he is wrong on this issue.
Check this out: Na na na na na na -- @dan you are wrong!
See? No @dan.
I am like 99% sure if Bitrex starts losing money because Alice is not actually sending them money that they credit to her account it wont fly for long.
Why would he bother. He stated that 3/5 entities can make your wallet basically useless. Right now, if you pay attention to whats being said isnt refuting what he said, but rather refuting about how bad it would be for Alice.
And the only disagreement we have is on a gradient of her being basically fucked and highly inconvenienced to completely screwed and highly inconvenienced.
Literall all you are saying is that
But that right there is conceding the argument at a base level. You took it for granted he was right from the get go and then reform the argument around how she can just walk it off and man up while 60% of her transactions fail and every exchange gives her the finger lol.
Were splitting hairs here and its bordering on comical. Literally NOBODY is going to want to be in a position where 3/5 mining pools decide to make your life a living hell.
You aren't getting it. Think about how it plays out instead of blindly trying to defend @dan. Let's imagine you are Alice (not the real person but the account). Alice realizes @dan has 51% of the hashes and is trying to "censor" her. I have shown that she can push a transaction through with certainty over a finite number of blocks. Let's say @dan is dead set on killing the chain to stop Alice. Alice sends the entirety of her balance to trex by pushing that transaction through.
Hungry to double her money she tries again after @dan graciously negates her original spend, then she executes a second (double) spend, maybe going so far as to dump her account on bittrex for the second time and transferring all of whatever she dumped into off the exchange. Alice is now 2x rich and out, @dan is wasting gobs of money mining a tainted coin.
Who won from this "censorship"?
All I care about is truth. Period. I never blindly defend anyone ever. If I smell bullshit I attack it endlessly.
First off she wont know. Nobody would ever know this is just happening to them. They would all assume the coin is 15 transactions per second pile of garbage like it has always been for many years. Nobody would assume there is a crazy attack going on against them. We would never be able to know. And any proof would be written off as a conspiracy theory.
She instantly sends her entire stack to Bitrex at exactly the right moment knowing full well it will double her money! Alice is a perfect warrior because she was able to access her magical powers of perception and know exactly when she was being attacked. Bitrex lets her get away with it too even though they lose a ton of money lol.
I don't know guys but this chick sounds pretty hot. I bet she can dodge bullets and leap skyscrapers in a single bound.
Anyway with all of that said, Bitrex wont give her that money. I am like 99% sure Bitrex would not lol this off and let her cash out. Not only that but this attack could be done on any number of her other wallets. All you do is watch the transactions and boom the money she cashed out would be right on the same black list. Dude this shit would be a fucking nightmare.
Ok lets stop turning this into a secret agent movie. If the mining pools felt like it, Alice would be fucked and she would have zero idea it was happening. And theres no fucking way Bitrex would let her get away with double spending them.
I downvoted you with full weight because you are not working to understand the concepts here and instead you are resorting to nonsense statements like "lets stop turning this into a secret agent movie".
You obviously have no understanding of game theory, strategy, security, probability, or how blockchains work. I'm proving to you that I do because I got this voting power by being a student of all these things. I really recommend learning from someone who knows their shit rather than @dan who is just trying to promote his latest revenue venture with unsubstantiated and erroneous claims.
All you did was show you can downvote people. I knew this was coming. I don't care.
You failed right there. The success of an ongoing, persistent, indefinite attack can't rely on the victim's not finding out about it. That is a recipe for a failed attack, and boom Alice is uncensored. It's easy to discover these attacks. Everyone will know something is up when the chain keeps re-organizing every 2+ blocks. They will spot who is behind the 51% attack and identify it as such, with these new 2+ block forks suddenly coming out of nowhere and reorganizing the chain, and possibly causing other havoc, not just to Alice.
The rest of your post is based on this same fallacy, so isn't worth responding to.
After months and maybe years having being fucked over.
And also, here we are again, BOTH OF US ULTIMATELY AGREE with @Dan . The deference is to what degree of fucked is Alice. In my opinion she is 100% fucked and in yours she is 60% fucked with a slight chance of doubling her money she cant spend anyway.
So what are we arguing about. Censorship doesnt just need to be outright silencing someone. censorship is also possible by making that person life a living hell.
We both know and agree this is possible. IE Dan is right. You agree, and I agree. The only things we have been arguing is to what degree of fucked she is. That's all. This entire argument you propose is 100% accepting what Dan said as truth and countering it with.
And don't even give me crap about how this would "destroy the mining pool or Ethereum" There would be a propaganda campaign to smoke bomb this fucker like nothing wrong ever happened and it would be business as usual forever.
Nope we don't. @dan can't censor Alice. She gets to spend her funds, twice if she is greedy. Downvoted you to make sure my position is clear.
if 3/5 mining pools colluded for a 51% attack they would lose power within 10-30 minutes as miners would notice what is happening and leave the pools
Not really, because we saw this happen with Bitcoin when they wanted to force 1mb blocksize completely crippling the coin and all it did was cause a schism. Also who would even notice if this were to happen. Its normal for ETH to take several hours to do a single transactions on peak times.
An attack like this against a single person would probably not even be possible to prove. They would just think ETH is being a little worse than usually today. It would take weeks before it clicks "Hey wait a minute" lol
on the bitcoin 1mb fork this wasn't a 51% attack and was caused due to the limit on blocksize being lower than thought and unknown untill was tried.
Miners would notice this or more accurately what ever bots they use to manage would identify and i would imagine most have corrective actions readily programmed for such a scenario
i speak on bitcoin not ethereum big difference
Yeah it was, it was a massive propaganda campaign fueled by Blockstream to defend their ownership of Bitcoin. Don't you remember when Bitcoin was suddenly not money anymore? That was where the "store of value" meme began and it was insanely stupid. Bcash / Bitcoin cash was a massive disaster and it all stemmed from Blockstream having full control over Bitcoin and using that control to prevent larger blocks to be implemented on Bitcoin.
what are you talking about?
blockstream doesnt have full control of bitcoin
big blocks are stupid and uneeded
seems you've been hitting the roger ver koolaid a bit too hard
maybe try researching and learning yourself rather than listening to what your being told
Well, arguably big blocks are not good either. Feel like systems similar to Steem are superior anyway.
well big blocks are pointless there is no need as of yet and would only lead to blockchain bloat as users could spam blocks full of dust transactions which would slow and drive transaction cost higher than what happened in December with little recourse
this is currently being tested by someone with bitcoincash so soon we will know outcome of with filling big blocks on mining and transacting
what systems do you refer to?
Too me the debate is a moot point because the only coins I would back at this juncture anymore have 4 second transaction times. Which is usually node based. Once ETH goes full out with Casper and plasma I can see going that route. I believe LOOM follows a similar system.
I wont touch Bitcoin OR Bitcoin cash. Too slow expensive.